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General/Other - Liu Kang What's Liu Kang missing to be top tier?

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
I can live without B12 FBRC being +5, it can be - for all I care(should still combo on it). As long as they leave F44 FBRC reasonably plus then I'd be fine. In a couple of months most people will predominately be using that for armor breaking on wakeup(I hope so).

BTW which characters did you test for backdash after B12 FBRC? I know Kano and Sub-Zero can get out, so a fair amount of characters also could get out.
Does wakeup backdash beat B12 FBRC?

If so, can you OS to beat it?
 

Derptile

RIP Ex Smash
Does wakeup backdash beat B12 FBRC?

If so, can you OS to beat it?
Well, I just tested it on my laptop barely running vanilla MKX at 30 FPS and it seems to me that characters like scorpion cannot backdash after a hard knockdown and will get hit, characters like Quan Chi will get hit by a well timed B12, but characters like SZ and Kano can backdash but might get block the 2 in B12 allowing for a FBRC. I wasn't able to check if they could double backdash.
 
I am having a hard time buying this whole "LK OP" thing since there is no hard evidence but just a bunch of theory and math. Does anyone have the execution to showcase what DF is truly capable of? We can theorize all day but from my experience the areas that he lacks in are significant enough to keep him out of the top 5 discussion, and possibly even the top 10.

I feel DF's execution is analogous to flashy over the top high damaging impractical combos. On paper, yes it is OP, but in reality no one is pulling it off.
 

YoloRoll1stHit

Publicly Educated
I am having a hard time buying this whole "LK OP" thing since there is no hard evidence but just a bunch of theory and math. Does anyone have the execution to showcase what DF is truly capable of? We can theorize all day but from my experience the areas that he lacks in are significant enough to keep him out of the top 5 discussion, and possibly even the top 10.

I feel DF's execution is analogous to flashy over the top high damaging impractical combos. On paper, yes it is OP, but in reality no one is pulling it off.
Everyone knows Kabal of MK9 is the most broken shit ever created. But noone ever has the ability to use Kabal PERFECTLY as he's truly capable of.
And if we talk about tiers, we should talk about tools and options, not player skills to use those characters.
 
Everyone knows Kabal of MK9 is the most broken shit ever created. But noone ever has the ability to use Kabal PERFECTLY as he's truly capable of.
And if we talk about tiers, we should talk about tools and options, not player skills to use those characters.
Kabal was highly represented in tournaments and there were quite a few players playing him at a high level and therefore he has the reputation that he had. This thus far is not the case with DF liu.
 

Phosferrax

Original Liu Kang cop.
I am having a hard time buying this whole "LK OP" thing since there is no hard evidence but just a bunch of theory and math. Does anyone have the execution to showcase what DF is truly capable of? We can theorize all day but from my experience the areas that he lacks in are significant enough to keep him out of the top 5 discussion, and possibly even the top 10.

I feel DF's execution is analogous to flashy over the top high damaging impractical combos. On paper, yes it is OP, but in reality no one is pulling it off.
Kabal was highly represented in tournaments and there were quite a few players playing him at a high level and therefore he has the reputation that he had. This thus far is not the case with DF liu.
But execution is only a time factor. People said that about Kabal, but it just took time. When top players have the execution down, he will do what Tempest does except he will never run out of meter.

What people for some reason forget is that this game is only 3 months old. What DF can do isn't theory, it is fact. It just takes a bit more time for the facts to show due to the difficulty.
 

Phosferrax

Original Liu Kang cop.
I can live without B12 FBRC being +5, it can be - for all I care(should still combo on it). As long as they leave F44 FBRC reasonably plus then I'd be fine. In a couple of months most people will predominately be using that for armor breaking on wakeup(I hope so).

BTW which characters did you test for backdash after B12 FBRC? I know Kano and Sub-Zero can get out, so a fair amount of characters also could get out.
Combo on hit, but on a read that if correct blows through nearly everything it should definitely forfeit momentum if Liu is wrong.

And I haven't tested really. I just go into training and practice the cancels. I personally think his pressure is so flow chart that it's boring and it's not too much fun steamrolling some characters because they can't do anything.
 

n1kosh

Train harder
He not anything missing. Many people forget that Liu have good zoning options. All trying pressure, but not using zoning. Your video from EVO proof this.
 
But execution is only a time factor. People said that about Kabal, but it just took time. When top players have the execution down, he will do what Tempest does except he will never run out of meter.

What people for some reason forget is that this game is only 3 months old. What DF can do isn't theory, it is fact. It just takes a bit more time for the facts to show due to the difficulty.
I personally haven't seen half of what you guys are talking about. No one seems to be able to demonstrate it so it's hard to accept as fact since the game is just a few months old. He may end up like Kabal. I don't have a problem with the possibility but the probability.
 

KingHippo

Alternative-Fact Checker
You act like I haven't tried that, you get interrupted between the last hit of wp and the ex wp back fist, but did you know that unless your Kung Lao or cassie you be parried for your attempt to interrupt? Try it in training mode bro, also low or airborne armor does the trick but have a counter too like ex db2 after ex wp
Regular Windmill can cancel to parry and beat armored moves, but EN Windmill it seems like, under testing, can only parry armored moves that are at least 18 frames. This leaves out quite a bit of the cast, although I suppose that's bad news for Tremor I guess. EN Windmill should almost always be interruptible before the last cancellable hit except for 5 characters.
 

ando1184

Noob
Ok so I decided to make a short vid describing the scenario I have been referring to everytime DF LK is brought up and his pressure. I recently stated that it does 18% chip but after further testing, it "on paper" (after doing the math based on the numbers shown on screen) it's actually a little over 13%. However in the vid I put the lifebar at 20% and it clearly looks like they lose more health than 13%. So here it is guys, I hope this helps to clear some things up:

 
I don't understand what is so hard for people just to take 10% chip, do you really want an option to get out of f21 pressure and risk getting full combo punish. 10% chip or risk 30%+ punish. People don't like to block it seems, they like to press a lot of buttons.
more like 10% chip along meter build, repeat or eat 30%+. pick your poison.
 
Ok so I decided to make a short vid describing the scenario I have been referring to everytime DF LK is brought up and his pressure. I recently stated that it does 18% chip but after further testing, it "on paper" (after doing the math based on the numbers shown on screen) it's actually a little over 13%. However in the vid I put the lifebar at 20% and it clearly looks like they lose more health than 13%. So here it is guys, I hope this helps to clear some things up:

Good video.
Do you know of any characters off the top of your head that have no options vs this?

Also, since he has to meter burn to remain +2, he gains 1/3 of a bar or less it seems.
 

Lone

KHAOTIC
Hopefully they tackle it in a similar fashion like they did with ex Hat Spin, being able to armor during pressure. And somehow get rid of F213 fb Dash Cancel plus frames without destroying the usefulness of the string across all variations.
 

ando1184

Noob
Good video.
Do you know of any characters off the top of your head that have no options vs this?

Also, since he has to meter burn to remain +2, he gains 1/3 of a bar or less it seems.
Maybe Kotal Kahn, yeh he has a 6f low poke but he can easily get put back into this situation vs LK and LK can even just knock em out and zone em to death so I'd say it's a pretty bad matchup. Quan Chi I think suffers as well, he can only backdash. But to answer your question more accurately, Takeda can't do anything, not even backdash.
 
Maybe Kotal Kahn, yeh he has a 6f low poke but he can easily get put back into this situation vs LK and LK can even just knock em out and zone em to death so I'd say it's a pretty bad matchup. Quan Chi I think suffers as well, he can only backdash. But to answer your question more accurately, Takeda can't do anything, not even backdash.
Yeah, if Takeda can't do anything, or if characters are forced to armor through, it need to be looked at.
 

A F0xy Grampa

Problem X Promotions
I am having a hard time buying this whole "LK OP" thing since there is no hard evidence but just a bunch of theory and math. Does anyone have the execution to showcase what DF is truly capable of? We can theorize all day but from my experience the areas that he lacks in are significant enough to keep him out of the top 5 discussion, and possibly even the top 10.

I feel DF's execution is analogous to flashy over the top high damaging impractical combos. On paper, yes it is OP, but in reality no one is pulling it off.
Already said, Xarakamaka
 

Enexemander

A Hitbox Pirate - YARRR -
Yeah, if Takeda can't do anything, or if characters are forced to armor through, it need to be looked at.
To be fair, Takeda does need to be looked at in general. Nerfing Liu isn't going to demonstrably help his situation.

So far as the "Secret #1 Character" business, well I'll believe it when I see it win tournaments with money on the line.
 

Scoot Magee

But I didn't want to dash
Ok so I decided to make a short vid describing the scenario I have been referring to everytime DF LK is brought up and his pressure. I recently stated that it does 18% chip but after further testing, it "on paper" (after doing the math based on the numbers shown on screen) it's actually a little over 13%. However in the vid I put the lifebar at 20% and it clearly looks like they lose more health than 13%. So here it is guys, I hope this helps to clear some things up:

@ClassySasquatch has been abusing fbc pressure like this since like week 1/2, this has been known here for a while now right? I was pretty surprised when they didn't touch him at all but nerfed Scorpion.

Btw it's not hard to do this so execution really isn't much of a barrier.
 
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ando1184

Noob
@ClassySasquatch has been abusing fbc pressure like this since like week 1/2, this has been known here for a while now right? I was pretty surprised when they didn't touch him at all but nerfed Scorpion.
Yeh I thought this was known as well because I first got a nasty taste of it vs @KingHippo's DF LK. I guess because of the execution it's not as used but like a lot of people have stated, it's only the beginning stages. Right now we have Quan chi's and Kung Laos that are far easier to use than this. But we are really early into the games life and once more people start putting in the work we might see more DF out there. I mean this is a character that has this kind of block pressure plus a far extended d2, his d3 gives him plus 1 and low profiles him so you can't cross him up, he can IAFB and has a low FB, can MB his FB's for good unbreakable damage, good combo damage and corner carry, good footsies and space control, and he's relatively plus and gains meter after everything. This character has it all and it's gonna be scary in the right hands.