General/Other - Summoner VS Quan Chi bat Vortex training

[ATP2014]

Anyone trying to dispute the fact that Quan Chi has the #1 vortex in the game is deluding themselves. He is plus on block even if you manage to guess the mixup AND manage to do the 1 frame switch in blocking.

He also has the BEST zoning in the game with Summoner. His footsies are also decent with the BEST NJP, a decent jump back 1 (or 2) and B2.

He does great damage AND pushes you full screen if he decides to end the vortex. In Sorcerer, he can activate the armor circle that allows him to drop out of combos AND have an amazing corner game.

The argument that "This character hasn't won a major yet" has always been dumb, especially since it has only been 3 months into the game's life.

 

[STB Shujinkydink]

I like that a Quan Chi main made a response to this, that was pretty insightful. Thanks for that, shout outs to Dink for being helpful, albeit it a little sassy.

Really though, what world are you living in where you think your low bat/ OH is remotely close to Brady's example? You're either lying to us and it's insulting, or lying to yourself and it's a little embarrassing to watch.

It was clearly a troll. I know it was slower.

Executing it though is just as hard as blocking it. It's not just an input you do. You have to get it frame perfect. If you don't the whole thing becomes a mid and there's no mixup. Nothing about this is unfair, peeps just like to complain instead of lab things. I don't really understand why Brady made the video honestly.

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

Here is a point.... If it is blockable as some are saying here, why does it matter if it is removed? You still have a 50 50 which is all this is if it's truly consistently blockable. So in theory, you're not losing anything, right?

 

[OFIDYAN]

Lol yep. NRS somebody please tell me how to practice against Quan

 

[Peckapowa]

A character that needs a pseudo unblockable vortex to compete is just a bad design. I would be fine if he got something to compensate for losing the pseudo unblockable since without it he would be basically mk9 scorpion (although he does have good zoning so it's not like he'd be worthless). We're just trying to make the game better here so quan still being good but having more depth than what he has now is the goal

This, and people acting like his vortex is all he has, its stupid he doesn't need unblockables plus 50/50s. He can already string together multiple 50/50s/ make them safe with bats and ex runes, that's already retarded along with this setup. And outside of this, He has bat, its an insane footsie tool and it supplements his keepaway game so well and fills gaps in pressure. This vortex unblockable crap completely ruins the intent of the bat which is too give him powerful control of the neutral game. This game has no differential playstyles...

 

[Peckapowa]

Anyone trying to dispute the fact that Quan Chi has the #1 vortex in the game is deluding themselves. He is plus on block even if you manage to guess the mixup AND manage to do the 1 frame switch in blocking.

He also has the BEST zoning in the game with Summoner. His footsies are also decent with the BEST NJP, a decent jump back 1 (or 2) and B2.

He does great damage AND pushes you full screen if he decides to end the vortex. In Sorcerer, he can activate the armor circle that allows him to drop out of combos AND have an amazing corner game.

The argument that "This character hasn't won a major yet" has always been dumb, especially since it has only been 3 months into the game's life.

2nd best zoning imo because of hish qu ten. Otherwise its very strong zoning. Now prepatch quan was the strongest zoner in nrs history.

 

[Peckapowa]

It was clearly a troll. I know it was slower.

Executing it though is just as hard as blocking it. It's not just an input you do. You have to get it frame perfect. If you don't the whole thing becomes a mid and there's no mixup. Nothing about this is unfair, peeps just like to complain instead of lab things. I don't really understand why Brady made the video honestly.

Dude... so because it's difficult to execute its fair game. I can't do this site anymore...

 

[WakeUp DP]

It was clearly a troll. I know it was slower.

Executing it though is just as hard as blocking it. It's not just an input you do. You have to get it frame perfect. If you don't the whole thing becomes a mid and there's no mixup. Nothing about this is unfair, peeps just like to complain instead of lab things. I don't really understand why Brady made the video honestly.

What I dont get about @Tom Brady is that he knows how to use other chars, knows set ups etc so how come he doesn't try playing and counter picking with dif chars at tournaments?

 

[Ryncage]

What I dont get about @Tom Brady is that he knows how to use other chars, knows set ups etc so how come he doesn't try playing and counter picking with dif chars at tournaments?

character loyalty, enjoying the sub play style far more than playing meta characters. Call it what you want.
In the perfect fighting game that doesn't exist, you shouldn't have to drop your fav character because he can be steamrolled by X or Y characters. he shouldn't be at that huge a disadvantage to begin with.

Anyways, more to your point. Just because you can be good at something doesn't mean you'll enjoy doing it.

 

[Rude]

What summoner Quan is able to do represents ev


I don't know what people are talking about when they say all he has is the vortex. Perhaps they're forgetting about his incredible zoning that is arguably the best in the game.

Boneshaper and Hish-Qu-Ten zone much better.

It's very good zoning, but watch any Quan Chi worth their salt. They're not winning by pure zoning. It compliments the vortex situations.

 

[navaroNe]

so if the vortex is done properly and the bat and overhead are timed perfectly is it literally unblockable for a human being like having one frame to go from duck block to standing? or just very difficult?

 

[STB Shujinkydink]

Dude... so because it's difficult to execute its fair game. I can't do this site anymore...

Yes. That's the majority of fighting games. The better characters take the most work. Alpha Pat in SCV for example

 

[Rude]

Yes. That's the majority of fighting games. The better characters take the most work. Alpha Pat in SCV for example

Eddie in Guilty Gear.

High execution characters are supposed to yield reward for mastering the execution barrier.

 

[WakeUp DP]

character loyalty, enjoying the sub play style far more than playing meta characters. Call it what you want.
In the perfect fighting game that doesn't exist, you shouldn't have to drop your fav character because he can be steamrolled by X or Y characters. he shouldn't be at that huge a disadvantage to begin with.

Anyways, more to your point. Just because you can be good at something doesn't mean you'll enjoy doing it.

Well if you are acompetitor.... You'd do anything it takes to win, specially when there is 60k on the pot.

 

[TheIrishFGCguy]

Boneshaper and Hish-Qu-Ten zone much better.

It's very good zoning, but watch any Quan Chi worth their salt. They're not winning by pure zoning. It compliments the vortex situations.

I've seen multiple rounds in tournament where Michelangelo, Dink, Chef, etc, have all won by pure zoning. In fact, Summoner Quan is one of the only characters in the game who can win by pure zoning.
There is no variation in the entire game that zones "much better" than Summoner. HQT is the only one that deserves to be in the same sentence. Boneshaper is strong but not on the level of HQT and Summoner.

 

[legion666]

This stuff CAN be blocked consistently . Between me and people who I play we have 3 Summoners, I block it like 1/3 times, but am also a shitty player. Other players I know block it with 2/3 consistency as soon as they get familiar with the set up. Honestly Quan has so many weaknesses that it isn't even an issue. Having no good armor not only means no wake ups, but no reversal armor, and for Quan in particular it means block infinites on him by at least 3 characters, and extremely hard time guessing especially in the corner against high pressure characters.

 

[ABACABB]

How I would balance quan :
- Make his low bat hit mid
- Remove the nerf of 1 sec bat delay and bat doesnt disappear if he gets hit
- buff his d3
- Make his ex stomp work properly so he can wakeup ( make it faster ,safer , and armor work properly )

 

[ATP2014]

The run button, bad anti-airs and teleports makes it hard for any character to win a round off pure zoning. Of those that can utilize zoning, Quan Chi is probably the best because he can cover mistakes with the bat or armor.

 

[Rude]

I've seen multiple rounds in tournament where Michelangelo, Dink, Chef, etc, have all won by pure zoning. In fact, Summoner Quan is one of the only characters in the game who can win by pure zoning.
There is no variation in the entire game that zones "much better" than Summoner. HQT is the only one that deserves to be in the same sentence. Boneshaper is strong but not on the level of HQT and Summoner.

That's just not true.

Boneshaper's zoning is better. His projectile is not only almost as fast as Kano Knives in Cyber, but it recovers quickly and can be used to set up his unblockable. Couple that with Hellsparks which is multi-hitting and controls massive amounts of screen real estate and it's not even a question as to who the best zoner in the game is. Hellsparks is also + on block with meter, leading to guaranteed pressure at worst and 50/50s at best.


Hish-Qu-Ten's zoning is better. It's safe, he can direct the laser sight in one direction, say down, and shoot straight. Up laser starts in six frames. Mb laser can break armor and i think hits mid. Any laser on hit guarantees a ground laser. On top of that, he has a great d4, b22 has excellent range and he can condition your movement to set up smart discs. With proper spacing of the discs, ducking laser shots becomes much more difficult.

Both characters also have advancing, armored launchers.

If i had to arrange the best zoners in the game:

1) Boneshaper Shinnok
2) Hish-Qu-Ten Predator
3) Summoner Quan Chi
4) Pyromancer Tanya
5) Full-Auto Jacqui

Most of matches from Michaelangelo or Dink are usually a split between zoning and the vortex. In very few match ups can Quan purely zone and win.

Especially in a game with advancing armor like Sub Zero's slide or Liu Kang's Dragonkick.

His zoning is very good, but it is NOT the best in the game.

@SaltShaker, what do you think?

 

[SaltShaker]

That's just not true.

Boneshaper's zoning is better. His projectile is not only almost as fast as Kano Knives in Cyber, but it recovers quickly and can be used to set up his unblockable. Couple that with Hellsparks which is multi-hitting and controls massive amounts of screen real estate and it's not even a question as to who the best zoner in the game is. Hellsparks is also + on block with meter, leading to guaranteed pressure at worst and 50/50s at best.


Hish-Qu-Ten's zoning is better. It's safe, he can direct the laser sight in one direction, say down, and shoot straight. Up laser starts in six frames. Mb laser can break armor and i think hits mid. Any laser on hit guarantees a ground laser. On top of that, he has a great d4, b22 has excellent range and he can condition your movement to set up smart discs. With proper spacing of the discs, ducking laser shots becomes much more difficult.

Both characters also have advancing, armored launchers.

If i had to arrange the best zoners in the game:

1) Boneshaper Shinnok
2) Hish-Qu-Ten Predator
3) Summoner Quan Chi
4) Pyromancer Tanya
5) Full-Auto Jacqui

Most of matches from Michaelangelo or Dink are usually a split between zoning and the vortex. In very few match ups can Quan purely zone and win.

Especially in a game with advancing armor like Sub Zero's slide or Liu Kang's Dragonkick.

His zoning is very good, but it is NOT the best in the game.

@SaltShaker, what do you think?

Definitely gotta remove that Jacqui placement for Kitana lol. Her zoning is too real now.

I don't think Summoner is the best, well I did, but not anymore. I think the Top 3 are far and beyond Summoner, HQT, and Bone Shaper. They are way above the rest with Kitana coming in a close 4th.

There's two categories. "Overall zoning" and "pure zoning", and I don't think Summoner is #1 in either.

Overall zoning is BS Shinnok. The combination of beam, sparks, scoop, shoulder, meterless vortex, and ranged normals is the best overall zoning in the game. Like QC, he can zone you into a 50/50 loop, but without meter. He can use his meter'd zoning to trap you into that loop. His beam is better, way better than skulls. Skulls cover almost full screen and body jumps at 3/4 range. If you stand for longer than a second EX Scoop will low poke you from near full screen for a full combo at an amazing speed. Then he can go right back to zoning again lol. No ones overall zoning toolset can match this.

Pure zoning is HQT. This is literally like the Dave variation lol. Summoner used to own this until HQT hit its peak. HQT Shots, when combining all 3, May be the best zoning projectiles in the game. It's hell for a lot of characters to get in on, and when they do one B2 or an upshot on Ji leads to full combo and full screen all over again. The recovery on shots is godlike, allowing multiple shots and still block or full combo armor people's punish attempts on reaction. Reaction. That good. Disk and air disk to cover space is just as good. Catches any jumps for full combos, and on block allows free zoning or free space. Kills WU's, forcing them to block for more zoning. Amazing chip totals from zoning. EX Stab is the ultimate whiff punisher or trip guard punish into 40% and more zoning. I thought this was close until recently, and was skeptical until more discussion and exp made it obvious. No one can purely zone like HQT.

Summoner is obviously still an amazing variation, and easily a top 3 zoner, but it isn't the "best" at either category of zoning anymore imo. Overall zoning it is very close between BS Shinnok and Summoner due to the similarities, but Shinnok has more outside zoning tools to assist beyond vortex than QC does. Pure zoning? HQT hands down. Not even close.

 

[ando1184]

It was clearly a troll. I know it was slower.

Executing it though is just as hard as blocking it. It's not just an input you do. You have to get it frame perfect. If you don't the whole thing becomes a mid and there's no mixup. Nothing about this is unfair, peeps just like to complain instead of lab things. I don't really understand why Brady made the video honestly.

But think about it this way, Kabal's dash cancel pressure in mk9 was pretty hard to do consistently too. But people kept labbing and labbing to get down the timing. After a little while it was perfected and low and behold, we saw kabal, kabal, kabal and he was winning everything. Just because it's hard to do doesn't mean we won't get there eventually and once we do, it will be a noticeable problem. Hell, by then it might even be too late because NRS might be finished with patches/dlc and working on injustice 2 for all we know. But, if history repeats itself, (which history is known to do) it will be a problem that Quan Chi can do this.

 

[Lumpymoomilk]

I know it's beatable I've even done it a few times, but holy crap it's near impossible online.

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

This stuff CAN be blocked consistently . Between me and people who I play we have 3 Summoners, I block it like 1/3 times, but am also a shitty player. Other players I know block it with 2/3 consistency as soon as they get familiar with the set up. Honestly Quan has so many weaknesses that it isn't even an issue. Having no good armor not only means no wake ups, but no reversal armor, and for Quan in particular it means block infinites on him by at least 3 characters, and extremely hard time guessing especially in the corner against high pressure characters.

2 out of 3 times is not consistent and even so I call bullshit. If they are blocking it that well the quan is messing up and they more than a few frames apart.

 

[Tom Brady]

It's not pseudo unblockable, just cause tom brady posted a video where he "couldn't" block it doesn't mean shit. I have people block my stuff all day. Quan NEEDS this vortex. When you play quan, you literally can't do shit on defense half the time. It sucks But once you get your offense going you have a chance to mix them up to death. High risk high reward. He needs no nerfs.


Before you say he needs nerfs, try him yourself .Tell me you don't get blown up by the simplest offense simply because you can't do shit about it

"High Risk"... end in +14

 

[legion666]

"High Risk"... end in +14

Stop acting like you didn't understand that in the post you quoted high risk meant weak defense in general, +14 on block from MB rune has nothing to do with Quan's defensive options. Tom grow up. Just because you got blown up by a Quan Chi player at Evo doesn't mean we need to nerf Quan. That Quan player lost at least 2 times after he beat you, because I didn't even see him in top 16. That means that pro players know how to deal with Quan. You didn't. And plus it is a pretty hard MU for Sub-Zero.
That pseudo unblockable was known to exist since like week one. Why didn't you complain then???????! Because stuff only needs to get nerfed if you get blown up by it?!)