Should testers be excluded from competing in the first few tournaments of the game?

[SneakyTortoise]

People keep saying that the first few tournaments have the big money pay outs, which is why testers should be banned because they have an unfair advantage to win this big payout.

But the testers have that job because they've proven themselves to be good at what they do. Should they then be penalized for that?

 

[Euphoric]

Interesting points, I hope I'm not intruding but,

The replacement for UFGT is Combo Breaker I think.

I'd like to touch on the east coast tournaments thing, because I have a couple of questions I'd like you to Konsider (sorry that was cheesy).

Are 16 bit and PPJ the only QA guys? Or just the ones that the community knows?
Yes there is documented reasons why GGA most likely won't participate in East Coast tournies, but those points shouldn't come into play when we are talking about testers. Because, what if things change? And PPJ isn't banned from those tournaments.

If a decision needs to be made about testers playing in tournaments within the first month (or whatever the pre determined length of time they shouldn't be playing) it should be a generalized. No majors for X amount of time for anyone who tested the game beyond the week long beta stuff.

The week long guys should go to every event imo.

That being said, as an international player who needs to fork out a pretty penny to go to these events, if I was planning on going to a major within the first month of the game's life and 16bit and PPJ and whoever else tested the game was going, it wouldn't stop me from attending. And my goal when going to these events is to compete, not just go and have the experience.

Mah man they shouldn't sit out, everyone shouldn't go level up at NLBC cuz Jr gonna be blowing it up.

 

[DarthArma]

youre also making a poll on tym, its like asking someone, hey stream boy, would you rather watch players who have been playing the game for several months play each other? Or would you rather watch only players who have only had the game since release play?

Of course they'd rather watch more experienced players play, but thats not the issue at hand

 

[Doombawkz]

Lbsh, 16 Bit takes top 8 with Catwoman at somewhere like EVO.
Do you really think he wouldn't be crushing people regardless of his testing position?
Like Tom Brady, 16 Bit, and Chris G could not touch the game for the entire testing process and still dominate early tournaments.

 

[DarthArma]

People keep saying that the first few tournaments have the big money pay outs, which is why testers should be banned because they have an unfair advantage to win this big payout.

But the testers have that job because they've proven themselves to be good at what they do. Should they then be penalized for that?

how is this even a debate? It's not always about whos the best, but its also about convenience. Sonic fox is probably one of the best and most proven players who would make an excellent tester (found all this tech with many different characters) , but I don't think his moms going to let him go to chicago to be a tester because he's still in highschool.


When tekken develops a new game, the top players that they put on the payroll to help develop the game are no longer allowed to compete for money.

 

[Phosferrax]

If you have an issue with them having an advantage when it comes to money then don't enter the tournament.

It's worse for the non-testers, sure, but the early tournaments can have a very big influence on sales and is free promotion for the game, which is more important imo.

I also think that MKX will be initially easier to grasp then Injustice was, so hopefully the (skill) gap shouldn't last as long.

 

[DarthArma]

If you have an issue with them having an advantage when it comes to money then don't enter the tournament.

It's worse for the non-testers, sure, but the early tournaments can have a very big influence on sales and is free promotion for the game, which is more important imo.

shut up, you don't exist! youre from the UK.


That's exactly what me and honey bee are saying, lol. Especially honey bee who comes all the way from Canada. if this was a tournament with no injustice and just mkx

 

[SneakyTortoise]

how is this even a debate? It's not always about whos the best, but its also about convenience. Sonic fox is probably one of the best and most proven players who would make an excellent tester (found all this tech with many different characters) , but I don't think his moms going to let him go to chicago to be a tester because he's still in highschool.


When tekken develops a new game, the top players that they put on the payroll to help develop the game are no longer allowed to compete for money.

I see your point, I wasn't saying that only the very best players get to be testers, but the current testers have these jobs because they are good at what they do right? So why should they then be penalized by that and not allowed to enter the big pay out tournaments?

If this were the case then maybe good players wouldn't want to be testers which would damage the game dramatically.

I personally think the best scenario would be that whatever the pot bonus is get's split in two and then a tournament is ran for testers and one for non-testers.

 

[DarthArma]

I see your point, I wasn't saying that only the very best players get to be testers, but the current testers have these jobs because they are good at what they do right? So why should they then be penalized by that and not allowed to enter the big pay out tournaments?

If this were the case then maybe good players wouldn't want to be testers which would damage the game dramatically.

I personally think the best scenario would be that whatever the pot bonus is get's split in two and then a tournament is ran for testers and one for non-testers.

The best "tester" does not Equal the best "player"

Doombawks is free as fuck, but man! is this guy fucking SMART! all the shit he's found in this game! all the inconsistencies just blow my fucking mind. He has a perfect mind to do the job, but with the mentality you have, because he's not a good player, because he hasnt gotten this "magic top 8" placement, no one will ever consider him to test their game. Even if you gave this guy a week! he could easily find something that anyone else has overlooked.

 

[coolwhip]

youre also making a poll on tym, its like asking someone, hey stream boy, would you rather watch players who have been playing the game for several months play each other? Or would you rather watch only players who have only had the game since release play?

Of course they'd rather watch more experienced players play, but thats not the issue at hand

Yeah that's what I meant earlier when I asked who has the authority to decide. 95% of the community does not travel and from a selfish perspective, we'd want to see the best players at the game compete. This actually has advantages as far as showcasing the game and making it look good. But ultimately, competitors have a stronger say in this.

Regardless, realistically, nothing will come out of this. Only two things might happen: TO's ban testers (unlikely) or testers make a judgment call and don't participate early on (I doubt they'd wait more than a month before playing though). The second option is the most realistic one, even if it's not ideal to many.

 

[HoneyBee]

It seems to me like the issue present is that viewers want to watch high level play (which makes sense) but people that travel want to feel there is a fair chance to win the money (which also makes sense). So why not split the pot in some way that the testers can only win x% of the money and everyone else can win x% of the money?

So let's say the tournament result is as follows:
1. Tester
2. Tester
3. Tester
4. Tester
5. Non Tester
5. Non Tester
7. Non Tester
7. Non Tester
The top 3 testers could split 50% of the pot and the top 3 non testers could split the other 50% of the pot. If a non tester makes the actual top 3, they could then have access to both pots.

Just a suggestion.

 

[Doombawkz]

The best "tester" does not Equal the best "player"

Doombawks is free as fuck, but man! is this guy fucking SMART! all the shit he's found in this game! all the inconsistencies just blow my fucking mind. He has a perfect mind to do the job, but with the mentality you have, because he's not a good player, because he hasnt gotten this "magic top 8" placement, no one will ever consider him to test their game. Even if you gave this guy a week! he could easily find something that anyone else has overlooked.

Ouch. You aren't wrong, but damn, at least spell my name right.

 

[DarthArma]

at this rate, no one is going to admit that they tested the game, lol

 

[coolwhip]

The best "tester" does not Equal the best "player"

Doombawks is free as fuck, but man! is this guy fucking SMART! all the shit he's found in this game! all the inconsistencies just blow my fucking mind. He has a perfect mind to do the job, but with the mentality you have, because he's not a good player, because he hasnt gotten this "magic top 8" placement, no one will ever consider him to test their game. Even if you gave this guy a week! he could easily find something that anyone else has overlooked.

I'd argue that those who understand the mechanics of the game (and are usually better players than tech monsters) make for far better testers than tech guys. This is no disrespect against anyone, but yeah, I'd prefer those who are more knowledgeable about fighting games in general to test a game. Plus, it's more convenient for NRS. They're not going to come to TYM and see who puts out the most tech videos for Injustice, especially when 99% of said videos are some sort of cross-up set-up (at least in the case of most characters). They are going by who's doing very well at tournaments because they understand fighting games and how they work.

 

[DarthArma]

Ouch. You aren't wrong, but damn, at least spell my name right.

ouch?! you are free! you say it all the time, but dude, youre so fucking smart when it comes to tech and game mechanics, do you think anyone would ever ask you to test a game for them? I WOULD but im not in the business of making games.

 

[DarthArma]

I'd argue that those who understand the mechanics of the game (and are usually better players than tech monsters) make for far better testers than tech guys. This is no disrespect against anyone, but yeah, I'd prefer those who are more knowledgeable about fighting games in general to test a game. Plus, it's more convenient for NRS. They're not going to come to TYM and see who puts out the most tech videos for Injustice, especially when 99% of said videos are some sort of cross-up set-up (at least in the case of most characters). They are going by who's doing very well at tournaments because they understand fighting games and how they work.

FUCCCKKK there arent going to be cross ups in mkX.

Thats it guys I don't care, im not playing
lol

 

[Doombawkz]

ouch?! you are free! you say it all the time, but dude, youre so fucking smart when it comes to tech and game mechanics, do you think anyone would ever ask you to test a game for them? I WOULD but im not in the business of making games.

No. I personally wouldn't hire me because I'm not a good player.
Then again, I have no scene and no incentive to practice to compete since the closest tourneys are 6 hours in any direction. I go to tourneys for the community and to get my 1 win.

Like if there were little stands that NRS recorded for tech exhibitions? I'd be up there for 6 hours showing off a bunch of shit and they'll be like "wow this guy knows how to do unviable things with Bane." and then move onto the 47th Batman cross-up.

I'd argue that those who understand the mechanics of the game (and are usually better players than tech monsters) make for far better testers than tech guys. This is no disrespect against anyone, but yeah, I'd prefer those who are more knowledgeable about fighting games in general to test a game. Plus, it's more convenient for NRS. They're not going to come to TYM and see who puts out the most tech videos for Injustice, especially when 99% of said videos are some sort of cross-up set-up (at least in the case of most characters). They are going by who's doing very well at tournaments because they understand fighting games and how they work.

You aren't wrong, but I refuse to say I make nothing but cross-up videos. ._.

 

[SneakyTortoise]

The best "tester" does not Equal the best "player"

Doombawks is free as fuck, but man! is this guy fucking SMART! all the shit he's found in this game! all the inconsistencies just blow my fucking mind. He has a perfect mind to do the job, but with the mentality you have, because he's not a good player, because he hasnt gotten this "magic top 8" placement, no one will ever consider him to test their game. Even if you gave this guy a week! he could easily find something that anyone else has overlooked.

Yeah I get it, there are people like Doombawkz out there who would be great testers without being able to be tournament placers, I'm not saying it's a requirement to be a tournament placer to be a tester, but isn't that how the current testers are chosen? They have been chosen because they've been able to show that they really understand fighting games. I mean, how do you expect NRS to know about people like doombawkz and trust that he knows how to make a game competitive?

I didn't say anywhere that only the best tournament placers should be testers, but that the current testers have been chosen partly due to that and I don't think they should be penalized for that.

 

[NurzBenny]

Double edged sword, as a viewer and as a guy who goes to tournaments I see both sides of the coin, but at the end of the day, testers have tech, have strategies, are just by the nature of the work more experienced, and a shade better than us on release day. I think it's in the communities best interest to try and always level up collectively, as quickly as possible. One of the fastest ways to do that is to have experiemced players show what they know as soon as they know, so we all can adopt and adapt.

If a tester wanted to sit out for personal reasons, totally reasonable, but I'd want to absorb that knowledge as quickly as possible. People play their best typically in tournament, we all want to be the best, so why not beat, or get beaten by the best.

Would hate to hypothetically be running around like chickens with our heads cut off for a month or two with tech that some people know, just isn't all that viable. It's kind of like playing God, testers are scientists, the Petri dish is our meta. If injustice is any example, by evo testers didn't matter. Cream always rises.

I get both arguments. I just think we as competitive players will get better faster playing against people in the know. Don't know how good I'd feel winning a tournament with the 800 lbs "could I have beaten him?" gorilla in the room. (That's not true, I'd feel great)

 

[SaltShaker]

I cannot believe how many of you are ok with this. Especially those who have played in tournaments. There is no amount of time or practice that will allow you to defeat a tourney player with a years worth of daily play in a month. None.

It is the same reason why everyone laughed at TotteryManx for saying he would MM Pig and beat him with 2 months of practice. Because you all know it's money in the bank for Pig.

But hey, if you tourney players have no problem handing your money over to Bit and PPJ for the first couple of months and stream watchers don't care about them running through the tournament then by all means more power to you.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

I'd argue that those who understand the mechanics of the game (and are usually better players than tech monsters) make for far better testers than tech guys. This is no disrespect against anyone, but yeah, I'd prefer those who are more knowledgeable about fighting games in general to test a game. Plus, it's more convenient for NRS. They're not going to come to TYM and see who puts out the most tech videos for Injustice, especially when 99% of said videos are some sort of cross-up set-up (at least in the case of most characters). They are going by who's doing very well at tournaments because they understand fighting games and how they work.

I think there are different kinds of good players though -- there are guys who are good players because they have great fundamentals, and then guys who are good because they are able to really get inside the engine and exploit it. There are some rare people who have both.. But take for example Chris G playing MK9; he clearly didn't understand a lot of aspects of the game (like why it doesn't make sense to spend 3 bars in the corner with Noob to get 27% damage). He wasn't the guy who was going to pick it up and immediately find the broken stuff, ridiculous resets etc. But because his fighting game fundamentals were so good, he was able to do well as a player while not fully exploring the game.

However if you put a guy like Check on the game, he's going to find the kind of broken, exploitable stuff that people are going to look for and abuse pretty quickly because of the way in which he explores the possibilities of the engine. How good or bad he is as a player has no bearing on his ability to get inside and understand how the engine is working and what it allows you to do, and then 'break' it. That is what a 'tester' in the truest sense needs to do.

There are a couple guys who are solidly in both camps, like Sonic Fox and Reo, who are both great players who seem to have a penchant for finding broken and abusable tech in the lab before others. But I think regardless of which bucket people are in, their specific viewpoint can be an asset to testing a fighting game as long as they have something strong to contribute.

 

[coolwhip]

You aren't wrong, but I refuse to say I make nothing but cross-up videos. ._.

Who said you do? I was talking about tech videos in general, and made sure to say that it is the case "for most characters." Obviously, the character you play is not ambiguous cross-up heavy so that's an exception.

 

[Braindead]

Pretty simple:
You are banned from tournaments for exactly how long you have tested the game.

@GGA 16 Bit see you at EVO 2016

 

[Doombawkz]

Who said you do? I was talking about tech videos in general, and made sure to say that it is the case "for most characters." Obviously, the character you play is not ambiguous cross-up heavy so that's an exception.

<_< Doesn't get much more ambiguous than a triple cross-up body splash (when done properly).
But yeah I guess

 

[coolwhip]

I think there are different kinds of good players though -- there are guys who are good players because they have great fundamentals, and then guys who are good because they are able to really get inside the engine and exploit it. There are some rare people who have both.. But take for example Chris G playing MK9; he clearly didn't understand a lot of aspects of the game (like why it doesn't make sense to spend 3 bars in the corner with Noob to get 27% damage). He wasn't the guy who was going to pick it up and immediately find the broken stuff, ridiculous resets etc. But because his fighting game fundamentals were so good, he was able to do well as a player while not fully exploring the game.

However if you put a guy like Check on the game, he's going to find the kind of broken, exploitable stuff that people are going to look for and abuse pretty quickly because of the way in which he explores the possibilities of the engine.

There are a couple guys who are solidly in both camps, like Sonic Fox and Reo, who are both great players who seem to have a penchant for finding broken and abusable tech in the lab. But I think regardless of which bucket people are in, their specific viewpoint can be an asset to testing a fighting game as long as they have something strong to contribute.

True. But ultimately, if you're NRS, you're not going to come to TYM, see who puts on the most tech videos, determine what's useful and what's not (there's a lot of shit tech videos out there), and then go "yeah, we need to hire this guy." It's far simpler to just go by tournament results. Check is an exception since he's made a name for himself for being the combo/tech guy who can find broken shit, and he's undoubtedly valuable in that regard.