Run Macro vs Stance Switch

[chemist4hire]

I'm not saying that's what they could or should do, it was to challenge his/their point. What makes running an unnessary executional requirement and not anything else?

To address your point, from what I remember there is already proof of stance specific things in this game with Takeda, so there's a good chance more exists within the game. I believe that alone is enough reason to not replace stance switch with a run macro.

I want to make clear I am not arguing for the removal of the stance switch macro, I am just saying if something that has so little use is getting a macro why can't run get one?

Everyone keeps going back to an execution argument barrier for run, but I am coming from a more historical angle. Run used to be a button and was only recently changed to f,f block. I am asking why can't we go back to a button press.

 

[Take$$$]

I want to make clear I am not arguing for the removal of the stance switch macro, I am just saying if something that has so little use is getting a macro why can't run get one?

Everyone keeps going back to an execution argument barrier for run, but I am coming from a more historical angle. Run used to be a button and was only recently changed to f,f block. I am asking why can't we go back to a button press.

Yeah I know, but thought your idea was to replace stance switch. I mean it would've been nice at the start I guess if they never had it and made that run instead, but that ship has sailed I believe. I mean there aren't any buttons left for run to get one right?

 

[SGX]

I'm speaking cordially: It's another function to remember and one that works fundamentally counter productively. B,B is back dash, yes? F,F is forward dash. Block is a stationary state. I feel there's something wrong with making your stationary defensive button also act as a forward moving offensive command. When it comes to, let's say Soul Calibur games the parry is an active defense which still logically progresses from the defensive button.

Yes, so much this. It's not that it's impossible or super difficult to perform. It's not intuitive, it's awkward, and really just doesn't feel good.

 

[RelentlessOhio]

Learn and adapt.. I couldn't run cancel for shit 3 weeks ago, now I'm killing it.

 

[Tony at Home]

Learn and adapt.. I couldn't run cancel for shit 3 weeks ago, now I'm killing it.

While I agree with your general sentiment, you're forgetting the most important factor--your fingers. Your fingers are the only piece of the puzzle over which you have complete control

I like the run button because it makes the execution a little harder on people.
the stance is used by some characters so there's that

Let me ask you a question. And yes, I am using the Socratic method, so you've been warned a gauntlet awaits...

Which of these do you think is a better input for running in Mortal Kombat X

or

?

 

[NoobHunter420]

I like the run button because it makes the execution a little harder on people.
the stance is used by some characters so there's that

 

[RoGE]

Is that true though? They could just make one button do 112 xx special etc do a full damage combo. That's much more simple than having to hit a sequence of buttons just right.


I mean that makes sense, but ff+block=run is not something that can't be overcome after a couple minutes in the lab. Yes its counter intuitive, but the input itself is not something new to MK. Dash cancel combos in mk9 had the same exact input, just a different timing.

There are a billion reasons why you wouldn't want one button doing an entire string into a special move. For one you'd probably only want to do 11 as it's safer on block than 112 into the special, you'd only do the 112 xx special into a hitconfirm.

When I say execution should only be as hard as it needs to be, I'm not saying there shouldn't be any execution involved at all. There should be SOME but only a necessary amount.

I'll give you an example, Ryu's dragon punch move should NOT be a one button move, that would make most blockstrings, jumping in and meaty attacks nearly impossible to pull off as your opponent could just mash dp. The three directional inputs don't involve back so you got a few frames of you not blocking, if it was one button you'd be able to hold back while doing a dp which adds all sorts of dumb stuff.

The necessary amount of execution required for certain things should be obvious.

 

[Take$$$]

There are a billion reasons why you wouldn't want one button doing an entire string into a special move. For one you'd probably only want to do 11 as it's safer on block than 112 into the special, you'd only do the 112 xx special into a hitconfirm.

When I say execution should only be as hard as it needs to be, I'm not saying there shouldn't be any execution involved at all. There should be SOME but only a necessary amount.

I'll give you an example, Ryu's dragon punch move should NOT be a one button move, that would make most blockstrings, jumping in and meaty attacks nearly impossible to pull off as your opponent could just mash dp. The three directional inputs don't involve back so you got a few frames of you not blocking, if it was one button you'd be able to hold back while doing a dp which adds all sorts of dumb stuff.

The necessary amount of execution required for certain things should be obvious.

I wouldn't even say that its obvious whats necessary and what isn't, extremes aside, since lots of people have different opinions on that sort of thing. As for why you think that button is bad, you're not addressing the point, but I'll leave it alone and just try to keep it focused solely on topic.

If you're implying that a run button is necessary, then why? There hasn't been any reason given thats not arbitrary, which means that its logic can be used to justify bad extremes like the one I posted. The argument you and others have put forth in favor of a run button has essentially been "I think dashing and pressing 1 extra button is an unnecessary execution requirement" which is not good enough because there's no reason behind it.

 

[Tony at Home]

I wouldn't even say that its obvious whats necessary and what isn't, extremes aside, since lots of people have different opinions on that sort of thing. As for why you think that button is bad, you're not addressing the point, but I'll leave it alone and just try to keep it focused solely on topic.

If you're implying that a run button is necessary, then why? There hasn't been any reason given thats not arbitrary, which means that its logic can be used to justify bad extremes like the one I posted. The argument has been "I think dashing and pressing 1 extra button is an unnecessary execution requirement" which is not good enough because there's no reason behind it.

Yes, there is reason.

A run button is neccessary because it allows the player to communicate their intent to run more efficiently than the current setup, given its optional.

Justification is only needed for additional inputs. See my earlier post.

 

[Take$$$]

Yes, there is reason.

A run button is neccessary because it allows the player to communicate their intent to run more efficiently than the current setup, given its optional.

Justification is only needed for additional inputs. See my earlier post.

Effectiveness doesn't translate to necessity. The current requirement for running is completely practical for most people with two working hands. By definition a run button is not even close to being a necessity.

 

[Tony at Home]

Effectiveness doesn't translate to necessity. The current requirement for running is completely practical for most people with two working hands. By definition a run button is not even close to being a necessity.

By definition, not having a run button isnt close to neccessity. F,f,blk isnt any more of a necessity than a single button.

then the question is Whats the default? What should be the starting point?

The default is controls are no more complex than they need to be.

You assume the burdon of justification is on simplicity. But the burden of justification defaults to increased complexity.

Otherwise, why not three forward inputs, or four, or five? Where do we draw the line if not "only as complex as it needs to be"?

 

[RoGE]

I wouldn't even say that its obvious whats necessary and what isn't, extremes aside, since lots of people have different opinions on that sort of thing. As for why you think that button is bad, you're not addressing the point, but I'll leave it alone and just try to keep it focused solely on topic.

If you're implying that a run button is necessary, then why? There hasn't been any reason given thats not arbitrary, which means that its logic can be used to justify bad extremes like the one I posted. The argument you and others have put forth in favor of a run button has essentially been "I think dashing and pressing 1 extra button is an unnecessary execution requirement" which is not good enough because there's no reason behind it.

I'm not saying it's necessary but it would be more convenient to have a run button now wouldn't it? ^^

 

[Take$$$]

By definition, not having a run button isnt close to neccessity. F,f,blk isnt any more of a necessity than a single button.

si then the question is? Whats the default? What should be the starting point?

The default is controls are no more complex than they need to be.

You assume the burdon of justification is on simplicity. But the burden of justification defaults to increased complexity.

Not having a run button at this point is a necessity unless I'm forgetting something. There are simply no more buttons left.

 

[Tony at Home]

Not having a run button at this point is a necessity unless I'm forgetting something. There are simply no more buttons left.

Simply allow it to be an option to remap to stance switch if we want. Some people don't need stance switch, and would rather have it there.

I would gladly give up stance switch entirely for a run button

 

[Take$$$]

Simply allow it to be an option to remap to stance switch if we want. Some people don't need stance switch, and would rather have it there.

I would gladly give up stance switch entirely for a run button

I wonder how practical adding that would be, and if it would even be worth the time put into it since they still have balance patches and netcode fixes in the works. I mean, if it truly is necessary then I imagine it would near the top of their list.

I'll continue the argument against a run button even if it were simple for them to implement, but later since I need a break from this lol.

 

[WaywardStranger]

^

I have no time for a Socratic gauntlet as it relates to this thread. The complaints herein are naught but vapid. Although I admit y'all may attract some attention at NRS if you gather enough support in your favor. Maybe an update to the button mapping will come of it.

Nevertheless, with the way my mind works, once a particular muscle memory has solidified there is virtually no difference between one input vs three inputs (f,f+block, in this case).

Plus, my characters fight right-handed if it can be helped.

 

[Zoidberg747]

Almost every NRS game has had one character with some sort of stance specific combos.

As someone who still struggles with Run canceling, I say keep it the way it is. I like having things to practice, and being able to do them consistently will make it even more satisfying. Plus if you map it to one button run cancels will be that much easier and those characters will start dominating quicker lol.

 

[Barrogh]

Why isn't it enough? Because FF~Block is just the way it is. There isn't a Run button.

While I agree with your general sentiment, you're forgetting the most important factor--your fingers. Your fingers are the only piece of the puzzle over which you have complete control, and yet, it would seem FF~Block equates to a 25 hit combo the way you guys are talking.

Fighting games are about fighting your opponent using finger dexterity. Give the lamentations a rest, perhaps hit the training mode.

Ew... There's to way to argue against that, I'm just saying that what we have, inevitably, to work with is, perhaps, not the optimal control layout. That's what the thread was about, I think, other than that, yeah, we will work with what we have.

To be honest, I'd rather have other issues with controls to be addressed.

 

[bebedao]

A run button in mkx? What's next, easy fatalities?

 

[D4G]

A run button in mkx? What's next, easy fatalities?

We already have those lol

Seriously though why should they implement a button purely based on the reason that a percentage of players don't want to learn or practice the already in place command? It's not an impossible command to input, it's not even hard to be honest. It's a mechanic that requires practice to learn just like anything else in a fighting game. Just because the input may feel awkward doesn't mean it should be changed. My dad bought me a Manual transmission car for my 18th birthday, that shit was hella awkward. Why didn't he just get me an automatic and save me the trouble of learning these unnecessary controls? Sounds just like entitled whining.


If you don't want to take the time to learn, you shouldn't complain.

 

[tigerija]

Yes, lets make us press 100 buttons before we can actually start attacking.
Run macro all the way. You have to press ridiculous number of buttons just to get single attack... I'm casual and that is not fun.
I mean, yes, ok, pros have no problem with it. But some us have retarded finger speed reflexes.
What does switch stance do? Seems like its broken, does nothing.
I'd even replace dash forward with run.

Biggest annoyance is dash=>attack. You need to press run/block before attack. That is not intuitive.
Its like playing FPS where you dont use mouse, but use keyboard to aim. Like in those old 90's games.

BTW, why they added dash forward if you cant cancel it into attack? Its annoying. You would rarely want to use it then.
So if you dont want to get hit you need to hit one more button (run).
So if you want to dash and attack its 4 buttons!!!
Forward, Forward, Block, Attack. Epic design. 4 buttons for 2 commands.

 

[00000000]

We already have those lol

Seriously though why should they implement a button purely based on the reason that a percentage of players don't want to learn or practice the already in place command? It's not an impossible command to input, it's not even hard to be honest. It's a mechanic that requires practice to learn just like anything else in a fighting game. Just because the input may feel awkward doesn't mean it should be changed. My dad bought me a Manual transmission car for my 18th birthday, that shit was hella awkward. Why didn't he just get me an automatic and save me the trouble of learning these unnecessary controls? Sounds just like entitled whining.


If you don't want to take the time to learn, you shouldn't complain.

I take issue with your manual statement. Mostly because I don't feel it fits. It's not the difference between a manual or automatic, if that's the case, we would be talking about combos vs auto combos. A more fitting comparison Is the placement of [R] on a shift tree. Driving multiple cars in manual you'll find that there are all manner of configurations on how you get to Reverse. Some are needlessly complicated to the point of pulling a ring on the shaft of the stick shift to then put the car into [R] gear which is situated all the way to the left of all the gears IIRC (Evo 9, BTW). Yeah, you wanna drive the car, you're gonna have to get used to putting it in reverse the way the company made it, but that doesn't flat out justify the decision when it's been proven unnecessary.

Speaking completely for myself here: MKX (and to an extent MK9) has too many buttons and doesn't need to. This makes it look like a design or executive decision and NOT an engineering decision (to use the words loosely). Making the game clunky for the sake of being, or laziness in implementing a better way (/assumption) is just not wise. It's like in Injustice when they neglected (or chose ?) to have the losing character get up on the last round only to fall back down. It's really hard to logic that out. That's what this thread is about, people discussing a funky gameplay decision. This isn't gamefaqs, I'd like to think that we're all aware that the game we're playing is the game we've got; that doesn't downplay 'jank'.

 

[John Grizzly]

It's a little late to change a major aspect of the game. I suck and I'm able to do run combos (offline). Just practice until it becomes muscle memory. I fucking sat in practice for hours until I could do Jax's F+2,1~Overhead Dash Punch, run, F+2,1, 1,1, F+2,1~Gotcha Grab consistently.

 

[Under_The_Mayo]

Venemous D'vorah players know why the stance switch button is so important.

@RunwayMafia

 

[chemist4hire]

Venemous D'vorah players know why the stance switch button is so important.

@RunwayMafia

Venomous D'Vorah players will be extinct once they get option selected out of any offense. Come join the Swarm. As you suffer, we enjoy. lol