Run Macro vs Stance Switch

[Linkuei82]

It's fine the way it is to me. It took a while to get use to, but I've adapted and it's like second nature now. I like it the way it is. Feels good to be able to execute with combos.

 

[Gworzor]

Nothing wrong with more options for the player to choose from in a way that is best for them. Consider the throw macro or easy input option.

 

[RyuKazuya]

Well playing with the mk pdp stick i had a hard time getting used to the fact that i do not have to use my thumb for running anymore. Now i ve got used to it. Changing it again to a run button would hella confuse me.

 

[Voodoo]

Switch stance should be taunt. That's all I use it for anyway.

 

[Take$$$]

Actually, what would a run button even do to significantly help people that can't do/struggle with run combos? If the run button holds the forward, then you run into all kinds of problems with the button being pretty uselss for a lot of things. If it doesn't, then the people with forward+normal inputs would have to do pretty much what they're doing now. Most characters have a mix of direction/no direction+normal for lots of combos right after the run, so I don't know how helpful it would really be overall.

 

[SGX]

If it were implemented properly, holding the run button would make you run, but wouldn't necessarily count as a "forward" input for doing moves, etc.

 

[Take$$$]

If it were implemented properly, holding the run button would make you run, but wouldn't necessarily count as a "forward" input for doing moves, etc.

Yeah, but then the characters who need a forward input after the run would basically be doing what they need to do now. Its just 1 less forward input, so if they have trouble with the current way I don't think that will help them much. Its greatest pro(or con depending on your pic) is making fb run cancel combos so much easier, but I like the execution requirements they have(which aren't THAT high for most of them). Plus most of the fb cancel combos get very easy very fast, easier than some regular run combos imo.

 

[chemist4hire]

Actually, what would a run button even do to significantly help people that can't do/struggle with run combos? If the run button holds the forward, then you run into all kinds of problems with the button being pretty uselss for a lot of things. If it doesn't, then the people with forward+normal inputs would have to do pretty much what they're doing now. Most characters have a mix of direction/no direction+normal for lots of combos right after the run, so I don't know how helpful it would really be overall.

The run button would enter f,f block into the input stream. So you would get the dash start up cancelled into run like you do now. No direction will be held. Even when you run now you do not need to hold the forward button.

 

[BlackJackSnack]

without stance switch characters don't have a sweet dance to do instead of a fatality

 

[Take$$$]

The run button would enter f,f block into the input stream. So you would get the dash start up cancelled into run like you do now. No direction will be held. Even when you run now you do not need to hold the forward button.

Yeah, but my point was those who have the shortcut of holding forward for their combos would almost be doing exactly what they're doing now anyway. A lot of combos are like that. It might be worth it to implement the button, but there's also a good amount of characters that require a mix of no forward+normal input and forward+normal input run combos. In the end I don't think it would help that much.

 

[D4G]

I literally spent days in training mode with Cassie and her Run cancels at release, I can now run cancel with just about any character with ease, it's natural now. Run cancels take a lot of practice, if you weren't willing to put in that practice you don't deserve life to be made any easier for you imo.

 

[Tony at Home]

Run cancels take a lot of practice, if you weren't willing to put in that practice you don't deserve life to be made any easier for you imo.

Someone put in the practice of being able to open up the opponent for the combo, why isn't that practice enough? Why isn't it enough they made the correct read, the correct whiff punish, or properly managed their resources?... Why is it bad life is being made easier for the person who successfully opened up the opponent for the combo, but it's NOT bad that life is being made easier for the person who allowed themselves to be opened up, because hard controls cut their punishment short??

But on top of that the arbitrary requirement must be added of controls being more difficult than they need to be?

People say "easy controls" are scrubby. I say, being able to throw out an unsafe highly punishable move with less risk, because there's a high chance the opponent will drop their characters' relatively more difficult combos is MUCH more scrubby.

Fighting games are about fighting your opponent, not fighting your controller.

I think this best sums it up:

I strongly believe that any sort of PvP game should be maximally about fighting opponent and minimally about fighting what devs included into the game - like interface decisions. If something is hard, then it should be hard because you opponent makes it so, not game designer.

 

[BillStickers]

When stance-specific combos start coming out, you're gonna wish you hadn't gotten rid of the stance switch button.

 

[Tony at Home]

When stance-specific combos start coming out, you're gonna wish you hadn't gotten rid of the stance switch button.

Wait... since when does having a macro for something available that can be optionally matched to the controls mean that the original controls are replaced??

At least in computing terms, by definition a macro can't replace the mutliple inputs it uses to create a final command.

The existence of a throw button in most fighting games doesn't mean you can't do it by pressing two other buttons at the same time.

 

[Take$$$]

Someone put in the practice of being able to open up the opponent for the combo, why isn't that practice enough? Why isn't it enough they made the correct read, the correct whiff punish, or properly managed their resources?... Why is it bad life is being made easier for the person who successfully opened up the opponent for the combo, but it's NOT bad that life is being made easier for the person who allowed themselves to be opened up, because hard controls cut their punishment short??

But on top of that the arbitrary requirement must be added of controls being more difficult than they need to be?

People say "easy controls" are scrubby. I say, being able to throw out an unsafe highly punishable move with less risk, because there's a high chance the opponent will drop their characters' relatively more difficult combos is MUCH more scrubby.

Fighting games are about fighting your opponent, not fighting your controller.

I think this best sums it up:

Well, fighting games are also about execution. A lot of us greatly enjoy doing executionally difficult things that others can't do, like viper players that have all her technically challenging stuff down in sf. That person that opened someone up did a good job yes, but now he has to finish the job. Also, why are you only targeting run combos? That seems quite arbitrary given your argument. Why not make it so you only have to press 1 or 2 buttons to get a full combo punish after making a great read? I'll tell you why not. It's because execution requirements(implying consistency here as well) give the game depth, it gives the players something to constantly work on and improve that is easily noticeable, it's one of the unique appeals of fighting games, it's something that helps separate good players from average players, it's an element of character uniqueness, and more I'm surely forgetting at the moment. On a casual level that doesn't mean much, but on a competitive level it means a lot. Note that the execution requirements vary from character to character, which is done so that everyone (hopefully)has a character that is within their range on a competitive level.

 

[WaywardStranger]

 

[RoGE]

I myself don't have much of an issue with it being ff+ block but at the same time it would be MUCH more convenient if it was one button. I don't know if they are capable of implementing this with patches though.

I like the way it is. Level up.

There is literally NOTHING wrong with making run easier. I don't see why improving controls hinders a game, there are PLENTY of other things to practice/improve upon, unnecessary execution barriers shouldn't be one of them. Execution should only be as hard as it needs to be.

Guys.

Forward + Stance Switch = Run
Back + Stance Switch = Backdash
Stance Switch = Stance Switch

I am a god.

This would be perfect. As much as it pains me to admit this, there may still be different hitboxes in different stances.

 

[WaywardStranger]

Someone put in the practice of being able to open up the opponent for the combo, why isn't that practice enough? Why isn't it enough they made the correct read, the correct whiff punish, or properly managed their resources?... Why is it bad life is being made easier for the person who successfully opened up the opponent for the combo, but it's NOT bad that life is being made easier for the person who allowed themselves to be opened up, because hard controls cut their punishment short??

But on top of that the arbitrary requirement must be added of controls being more difficult than they need to be?

People say "easy controls" are scrubby. I say, being able to throw out an unsafe highly punishable move with less risk, because there's a high chance the opponent will drop their characters' relatively more difficult combos is MUCH more scrubby.

Fighting games are about fighting your opponent, not fighting your controller.

I think this best sums it up:

I strongly believe that any sort of PvP game should be maximally about fighting opponent and minimally about fighting what devs included into the game - like interface decisions. If something is hard, then it should be hard because you opponent makes it so, not game designer.

Why isn't it enough? Because FF~Block is just the way it is. There isn't a Run button.

While I agree with your general sentiment, you're forgetting the most important factor--your fingers. Your fingers are the only piece of the puzzle over which you have complete control, and yet, it would seem FF~Block equates to a 25 hit combo the way you guys are talking.

Fighting games are about fighting your opponent using finger dexterity. Give the lamentations a rest, perhaps hit the training mode.

 

[00000000]

After playing fighting games for 20+ years I'm feeling like NRS MK (and kinda older MKs) are needlessly awkward. 4 attack buttons, a block button/meter burn (one of the only implementations I'm ok with), a stance button, an interaction button, a dash, a command for run, a combination for throw, a combination for super?

Half of that is needless and I'd personally be much more comfortable with extraneous inputs just being macros. 4 attacks and a block button are all you need. SNK games with "EX" modes/grooves have proven that you can do both dash and run with just F,F or F,[F]. Having an input and a macro for throw shows me they understand that button combinations can be implemented.

I'm boggled by how arbitrary and haphazard their ideas for buttons are, almost like someone said "If there are eight buttons on a pad/stick we're gonna use them all, instead of doing more with less and allowing extra buttons to be assigned as macros later. The only logical conclusion I can come to is that they wanted things to simply be the same for pad and stick which I feel is short sighted because starting with less and enabling macros seems a better approach than dumping a ton of buttons on people.

If anything, I'd be grateful if they reverse-engineered button combinations to take the place of the extraneous buttons.

/opinion

EDIT: and to address open/closed stance combos - that's simple, game might be 3-d and play like 3-d games by use of strings but that doesn't mean they can't adjust hitboxes to work in a more consistent manner, this is assuming that there are open/closed stance combos. even now we have size specific combos by way of Jaqui who's Shotgun restands work differently depending on her opponent.

 

[Take$$$]

I myself don't have much of an issue with it being ff+ block but at the same time it would be MUCH more convenient if it was one button. I don't know if they are capable of implementing this with patches though.



There is literally NOTHING wrong with making run easier. I don't see why improving controls hinders a game, there are PLENTY of other things to practice/improve upon, unnecessary execution barriers shouldn't be one of them. Execution should only be as hard as it needs to be.



This would be perfect. As much as it pains me to admit this, there may still be different hitboxes in different stances.

So why is the current run system an unnecessary execution barrier and not, say, basic strings?

 

[RoGE]

So why is the current run system an unnecessary execution barrier and not, say, basic strings?

Because the run system can be made to be more convenient by having a dedicated run button and strings like 112 are as simple as they can get lol

 

[00000000]

So why is the current run system an unnecessary execution barrier and not, say, basic strings?

I'm speaking cordially: It's another function to remember and one that works fundamentally counter productively. B,B is back dash, yes? F,F is forward dash. Block is a stationary state. I feel there's something wrong with making your stationary defensive button also act as a forward moving offensive command. When it comes to, let's say Soul Calibur games the parry is an active defense which still logically progresses from the defensive button.

 

[Take$$$]

Because the run system can be made to be more convenient by having a dedicated run button and strings like 112 are as simple as they can get lol

Is that true though? They could just make one button do 112 xx special etc do a full damage combo. That's much more simple than having to hit a sequence of buttons just right.

I'm speaking cordially: It's another function to remember and one that works fundamentally counter productively. B,B is back dash, yes? F,F is forward dash. Block is a stationary state. I feel there's something wrong with making your stationary defensive button also act as a forward moving offensive command. When it comes to, let's say Soul Calibur games the parry is an active defense which still logically progresses from the defensive button.

I mean that makes sense, but ff+block=run is not something that can't be overcome after a couple minutes in the lab. Yes its counter intuitive, but the input itself is not something new to MK. Dash cancel combos in mk9 had the same exact input, just a different timing.

 

[chemist4hire]

Is that true though? They could just make one button do 112 xx special etc do a full damage combo. That's much more simple than having to hit a sequence of buttons just right.


I mean that makes sense, but ff+block=run is not something that can't be overcome after a couple minutes in the lab. Yes its counter intuitive, but the input itself is not something new to MK. Dash cancel combos in mk9 had the same exact input, just a different timing.

They can not and will not do that because that limits your offensive options because a controller only has so many buttons. Assigning run to a button does not limit your options. What we are discussing here is that for pad players, throw, interactable and stance switch was made into a macro so that you only needed to press one button rather than fight your controller to hit 2 buttons (that may not be next to each other).

What you are saying has been tried before (having specials mapped to buttons) in capcom games. These things were banned because they changed the way the game played, not because of execution but because it allowed you to do things that were not allowed in the game engine. For example walking forward sonic booms, etc.

 

[Take$$$]

They can not and will not do that because that limits your offensive options because a controller only has so many buttons. Assigning run to a button does not limit your options. What we are discussing here is that for pad players, throw, interactable and stance switch was made into a macro so that you only needed to press one button rather than fight your controller to hit 2 buttons (that may not be next to each other).

What you are saying has been tried before (having specials mapped to buttons) in capcom games. These things were banned because they changed the way the game played, not because of execution but because it allowed you to do things that were not allowed in the game engine. For example walking forward sonic booms, etc.

I'm not saying that's what they could or should do, it was to challenge his/their point. What makes running an unnessary executional requirement and not anything else?

To address your point, from what I remember there is already proof of stance specific things in this game with Takeda, so there's a good chance more exists within the game. I believe that alone is enough reason to not replace stance switch with a run macro.