Official UMK3:TE Changelog and Discussion Thread

[nwo]

Specialist referring to the skill level required to use her at high level/tournament play, being much much harder than kung lao. Kung has he easiest infinite in the game, that alone draws people into using him. Also, his infinite is not that difficult to do (especially compared to Reptile). Hence, Reptile also being very much so a specialist character….

Mastering her iAF and using it effectively in high level play to the point of not hindering you at all, on optimal rushdown or anything, is extremely hard to do. One would have a much better chance of climbing the ranks and just an overall easier time winning higher level matches learning Kung Lao and mastering His infinite than trying to learn and master Kitana and her iAF, in a nutshell…

And I would rather have Kung Lao and his infinite possibilities against Kabal and H Smoke than Kitana all day.

You think that an IAF is harder to do than Lao's infinite variations? That's quite funny man. Especially online.

 

[nwo]

But yeah, Lao does way better vs H.Smoke and Kabal than Kitana does.

 

[dubson]

Say they somehow are able to make Scorp as good as H. Smoke. What's the fun in that? It would just boil down to what character is eaier to execute their combos and then the other character doesn't get used and then the whole point of this is moot.

I don't know if you know this, but the whole point of different characters is to create variety and uniqueness. It's what makes matchups interesting.

This essentially is the deal breaker right here and hit the nail on the head. This IS the problem. It instantly makes one character obsolete and pointless to play in tournament.

variety and uniqueness, yes! this is exactly what we want/need!!

 

[dubson]

You think that an IAF is harder to do than Lao's infinite variations? That's quite funny man. Especially online.

Listen man, I can do both, and thats not what I said.

I said doing her iAF and being competitive with it is harder than being competitive with kung lao and being able to use his infinite. It hinders how you play, its difficult to master…. of course just DOING her freaking iAF is easier than landing his infinite. Anyone can just TOSS it out there. Be realistic and read what was said.

For example. Let's play? Let me judge how good you are with iAF. Let's see how competitive with it you are, compared to your Kung Lao. I bet it clunks you the hell up, holding your hand like a twisted claw, and you get tore down. But hey, maybe I am very wrong… ?

 

[nwo]

Listen man, I can do both, thats not what I said.

I said doing her iAF and being competitive with it is harder than being competitive with kung lao and being able to use his infinite. It hinders how you play, its difficult to master…. of course just DOING her freaking iAF is easier than landing his infinite. Anyone can just TOSS it out there. Be realistic and read what was said.

For example. Let's play? Let me judge how good you are with iAF. Let's see how competitive with it you are, compared to your Kung Lao. I bet it clunks you the hell up and you get tore down, but hey, maybe I am very wrong… ?

I can utilize both Kabal's IAF and Kitana's IAF in real matches (online), and I hardly ever use either character...

 

[dubson]

I can utilize both Kabal's IAF and Kitana's IAF in real matches (online), and I hardly ever use either character...

Were talking about Kitana Only here. And sure you said you can use them, but how effectively is the point. And you should recognize that it is very hard to use AND be effective at the same time in high level/tournament play. That much more than Kung Lao, and his infinite. The average player would crumble trying to fight with her trying to use iAF. One would fare much better with Kung lao and his infinite. That is what makes her a specialist. What do you not understand or are you just trying to find points of my posts and start an argument.

And were talking about Offline play here. Come on with all this online x-factor variable nonsense. His infinite is obviously easier online.

 

[Juggs]

Say they somehow are able to make Scorp as good as H. Smoke. What's the fun in that? It would just boil down to what character is eaier to execute their combos and then the other character doesn't get used and then the whole point of this is moot.

I don't know if you know this, but the whole point of different characters is to create variety and uniqueness. It's what makes matchups interesting. The fact you compared Kitana and Smoke being the H. Smoke of female ninjas and robots is laughable.

How does limiting smoke to 2 specials make him more unique? It makes him more boring, and if Scorpion continues to get buffed and Smoked nerfed, the exact same thing will happen but reversed. No one will want to play Smoke anymore, for the same reasons. If you're going to take away an option, give him another one to make him more "unique". Taking away options on top of nerfs doesn't make sense unless you give him something else to make up for it. The goal is to make every character balanced, let's not lose sight of that.

Kitana is better than Mileena and Jade because her design is completely different and happens to be more effective in UMK3's meta than the others. Not just iAF.
Smoke is better than Cyrax and Sektor because his design is completely different and happens to be more effective in UMK3's meta than the others. Not just spear.

Exactly my point, and Smokes air throw isn't what makes him more effective in UMK3's meta than Scorpion. The both share the same specials, air throw, spear, teleport. What good is removing the air throw when they both still share the spear and teleport?

Taking away options and limiting a character on top of nerfs already applied doesn't make sense unless those nerfs weren't enough. Even then, removing an option unless it's broken beyond repair simply doesn't make sense. The exception of course is when 2 characters are very similar, and in this case, have the same specials. You'd then take away one or more of one of the characters specials, while giving him new ones. Not create the same problem over again.

H. Smoke is better than Scorp because he is the exact same design but Smoke does waaaay more damage.

Right, so how does removing the airthrow from Smoke alleviate this problem?

 

[STRYKIE]

Also, I don't know if anyone else here was in the stream chat when Shock was demonstrating some stuff on stream, but he did briefly mention the possibility of using some of the -ality sprites as new moves tied to the run meter. If it comes to fruition and turns out to be practical, perhaps we should see how it plays out for some characters before reaching a verdict on the removal of existing moves. A makeshift hellfire for Scorpion (winpose+Liu Kang fatality 1 flames?) could be a good enough game changer in itself for his meta.

 

[NinjaGrinder]

Leave me out of that "I bitch about human smoke's nerfs because he's my character of choice" bus, I don't even main anyone nowadays, last tournament I even went random LOL this game is too old (and I love it) for me to think about maining a character. And the scene for the game is not growing. Not because of glitch jabs -at least not here, people deal with them and most importantly, they don't make a huge deal out of them, like if everyone was an expert glitchjabber or something. Also, about this Hsmoke thing, it's not about the freaking damage output, it's about removing a move. It could be anyone and I'd think the same, removing a special move is not the way to go, if you want to balance or teak a game.

But once again, it's just a hack. Interesting changes, I will surely give it a try and show it to people. Tournament replacement version? not so much.

 

[dubson]

He got a damage nerf, it isn't enough… H Smoke is too ridiculously good in this game….

Kabal got one of his moves basically taken away (buzz saw) from MK3 to UMK3 and still came out the best character in the game. Just sayin… let's make this right…. as it IS designed to be a tournament replacement.

 

[Shock]

@Shock, you think Kung Lao is less of a specialist character than Kitana? I see a lot of Kitana's and not many Lao's, but maybe thats because I mostly play online. Half the time Lao's infinities are not even possible online, no matter how well you master them.

Remember, many of you guys who do play online see a different character selection frequency merely due to it being online. It is hard for me to explain, but Kitana's effectiveness requires more application and effort than Kung Lao, IMO but they are close. I am a former Lao main. I mained him from the 90s in MK3 until mid early to mid 2000s when I picked up H Smoke, and completely gave him up when I met Summoning in 2007 who also mained him.

As for all the other stuff in the last day here, keep the ideas and concerns flowing, it will only help.

 

[Konqrr]

I love all of the conversation and especially the concern for both what is being done and things that are only being ideas tossed around.

But please keep this stuff out of here:

Let me judge how good you are with iAF. Let's see how competitive with it you are, compared to your Kung Lao. I bet it clunks you the hell up, holding your hand like a twisted claw, and you get tore down. But hey, maybe I am very wrong… ?

It's not just @dubson, but I used him as an example so I hope he doesn't think I am picking on him, I am not...

Discuss the hack, anything else keep to PMs.

 

[Konqrr]

Version 28 is finally done... I'll put all of the changes up tomorrow.

For now though,

Important stuff:

• Jabs returned to normal - GJs are still gone
  
• Jabs cause Iceskate on one hit (HIT, not block) in the corner

This means the corner jab infinite is gone as you just need to take a hit and they are pushed back... however if your opponent reads this, they can stop jabs and go into a knee combo.

 

[GetSpookd]

H. Smoke is better than Scorp because he is the exact same design but Smoke does waaaay more damage.

Well then, how about, idk, nerfing the damage?

He got a damage nerf, it isn't enough… H Smoke is too ridiculously good in this game….

Nerf it till its enough.

Kabal got one of his moves basically taken away (buzz saw) from MK3 to UMK3 and still came out the best character in the game.

Yeah tho, the buzz saw wasn't the thing that made him the best to begin with.

 

[umk_p1]

Version 28 is finally done... I'll put all of the changes up tomorrow.

For now though,

Important stuff:

• Jabs returned to normal
• Jabs cause Iceskate on one hit in the corner

This means the corner jab infinite is gone as you just need to take a hit and they are pushed back... however if your opponent reads this, they can stop jabs and go into a knee combo.

what you mean by normal jab? defense jabs are back?
also i think 1 hit pushback is the worst idea in this entire change log...
almost in every fighting game corner is the place u don't want to be in, so that motivates to answer back and attack, if u turtle - u are trapped in corner wich is disadvantageous position.... now i will downback block in the corner all day lol what wuold u do to me? fireball chip damage? what if i play ermac and i will teleport and punish?
I vote against it.

 

[dubson]

Well then, how about, idk, nerfing the damage?

Nerf it till its enough.

Yeah tho, the buzz saw wasn't the thing that made him the best to begin with.

Nerf it till its enough? It's not that cut and dry, bud. Not with him.

And are you serious? Have you used those buzz saws? They were A reason. The air throw isn't what makes H Smoke the best, it also isn't purely damage, its Many things. My point was , again, lets get it right.

 

[dubson]

I love all of the conversation and especially the concern for both what is being done and things that are only being ideas tossed around.

But please keep this stuff out of here:


It's not just @dubson, but I used him as an example so I hope he doesn't think I am picking on him, I am not...

Discuss the hack, anything else keep to PMs.

This all has to do with the hack, calm down. If you read that post I don't see a single thing wrong with it. What did I do.. say hell...

 

[dubson]

what you mean by normal jab? defense jabs are back?
also i think 1 hit pushback is the worst idea in this entire change log...
almost in every fighting game corner is the place u don't want to be in, so that motivates to answer back and attack, if u turtle - u are trapped in corner wich is disadvantageous position.... now i will downback block in the corner all day lol what wuold u do to me? fireball chip damage? what if i play ermac and i will teleport and punish?
I vote against it.

I agree that it will really change things, but if you plan to sit there holding block you will have to sit there and take uppercut chip damage, which takes a lot of chip and can kill you before you know it, until your not blocking which will open you up.

the interesting thing you mentioned were teleport characters, who sound like on paper will benefit from this extremely huge

 

[RiBBz22]

What if the overall goal is to make Human Smoke not a Scorpion clone?

Basically, HSmoke has Scorpion's Spear, Teleport, Air Throw, and Elbow Combos... plus Kano's Knee Combos.

What if HSmoke had moves only HSmoke had?

Sure if you could re-design a character to give them something unique this makes sense. Deleting something from a character just to make them different doesn't make any sense to me. Has to be a better way to address these types of issues. I also disagree with an argument that an air throw feels out of place for HSmoke and he just got it by proxy. While he may have got it by proxy initially, I feel like the air throw has become a staple of the character over time, especially after becoming a huge part of his game in MK9.

 

[GetSpookd]

Nerf it till its enough? It's not that cut and dry, bud. Not with him.

Yeah, I know, I just said it in a most general way. By that I mean, nerf/buff/balance chars without cutting out any moves, which I believe is still possible.

And are you serious? Have you used those buzz saws? They were A reason.

Again, which is exactly my point. He is still the best disregard the nerfed buzzsaw from MK3 to UMK3 anyway. Which means that that wasn't the main thing that made him first on the tier list.

The air throw isn't what makes H Smoke the best

Then why remove it ? Nerf the thing that makes H Smoke the best. Simple as that (well, I know that its not really that simple, but still, I believe, that removing a move is not necessary and it'll only make him dull and overall change his playstyle, which is not the point of the balance hack, in any chars case).

it also isn't purely damage, its Many things.

Post I've quoted, getting back to previous posts, I've seen more complaints about the damage than anything, hence my reply.

My point was , again, lets get it right.

We all want to get it right in this regard.

 

[dubson]

You really don't get it and this is my last post to you regarding H Smoke's air throw. It's like your just arguing to argue now or you don't know what your even defending.

So the air throw isn't what makes him broken,. so he should have it? Smoke is broken in this game. He doesn't Need it therefore he shouldn't Have it (Vanilla). Why should he even have the option of being able to do it or have opponents fear it from him? It's about options, and the cast also. Not just how many special moves character X has, and this game does not revolve around H Smoke, it revolves around over 20 others as well.

My point about Kabal losing a move and still coming out the best was something you also didn't catch, and that is that you guys are so worried about him losing his air throw when even with it gone, damage nerf and walk speed nerf, this dude is PROBABLY STILL going to come out top tier. Shock just said, bet your ass, he can still dish out ~45% off a single pop-up, spear, etc. (With Ease).

People who want to play with a broken H Smoke who shits on pretty much the entire cast except one character can stick to Vanilla, plain and simple, and can leave this "hack" alone. But tournament level players are tired of it and want change, and it ultimately led to this game's demise and shorter life than it potentially could have been. Slips is right, we need a game that is balanced, has variety and is unique. Vanilla UMK3 is extremely unbalanced and a majority of the characters cannot even compete or stand a chance in tournament/high level play or against the top tier.

Your too worried about the character, and not the game.

 

[9.95]

Here's my final thoughts on HSmoke, and the hack in general:

I feel like, going into MK2, and the creation of UMK2TE, that the hacker felt a sense of responsibility toward the MK2 commuity(and overall MKC) to balance MK2 as best as possible but still remain MK2 at it's core.

It's not that I don't want to see "Ultimate Mortal Kombat 3 Super Exciting New Versions Of Old Characters Edition"(a version where characters are completely changed,instead of just buffed or nerfed)...I very much do, and I can't wait to try it and maybe it'll become the best version of UMK3 to date. Before that, however, if ther hacker has the same sense of responsibility toward UMK3 as he did toward MK2, then I think the responsible thing to do first, is to create a balanced version with a few new things (Scorp's changes in UMK3 so far remind me of Raiden's in UMK2TE, which is a good thing...essentially all the changes thus far have been in the right direction) to make lower tier characters viable, OP tiers nerfed for balance and GJ's removed. I think all in all, we need something that is still UMK3 at it's core... then UMK3SENVOOCE would be even better because we'd have 2 unique hacks of the game to play.

 

[BustaUppa]

Well I've always hated the basic design of Smoke as "Scorpion, but better." He's the ultimate hack-job character in that regard. Like, at least Robo Smoke had the decency to recycle animations from two different characters.

Let's get really hypothetical and imagine Human Smoke was never a cheat code in the original UMK3. If the MK community was building this character from the ground up for a 2014 hack, I couldn't imagine them giving him that air throw on purpose. I could see the common opinion being that it would make him too much like Scorpion. Maybe he wouldn't even get a teleport, since I don't believe the CPU used it in MKII. He'd obviously get the spear, crazy walk speed, and some unique combos (probably still ending up with a launcher since it seems like an obvious fun thing to do for a hack, and is different enough from Scorpion's play style to feel like a good idea to 2014 players).

Now it's impossible to remove that sheen of bias in real life, since the community has 20 years of playing H.Smoke a certain way under its belt. It's annoying, because deep down we all know that this move only exists because of laziness in the first place (i.e. just copying Scorp's moves and no new animation). I stand by the opinion that the air throw should never have been there in the first place - it completely invalidated an existing character; relegating Scorpion to the 20x Gravity Dragonball Z training version of Smoke. However, it's been around for 20 years, so the question of what to do with it becomes a little awkward. I feel like I'm talking about a racist state flag here, lol.

Or even the HK,D+LP starter (which visibly uses Scorpion's axe... should that not be a popup for Scorpion himself? lol). Straight up removing specials seems a sentimental solution at best.

Ha, that's a good point that I forgot about. Maybe keep the air throw, but please make Smoke give the axes back to Scorpion at least.

 

[Juggs]

Sure if you could re-design a character to give them something unique this makes sense. Deleting something from a character just to make them different doesn't make any sense to me. Has to be a better way to address these types of issues. I also disagree with an argument that an air throw feels out of place for HSmoke and he just got it by proxy. While he may have got it by proxy initially, I feel like the air throw has become a staple of the character over time, especially after becoming a huge part of his game in MK9.

Exactly this.

People seem to think I'm trying to defend H.Smoke because I main him. I main the entire cast, and want the best for the game and every character. I'd rather play Sheeva than any other character in UMK3, she's the most fun and she can win despite her flaws, so if I would be biased towards any character it would be her.

It comes down to what the goal is, which, I'm not sure what the goal is with UMK3:TE. To me, the goal would be to make the game more balanced and more competitive for tournaments, hence "tournament edition". This means making every character viable, which doesn't take a whole lot in UMK3 as most characters can compete in some capacity. The problem is that in tournament, people use Kabal and H.Smoke 99% of the time, at least if they want to win. And it's because Kabal and H.Smoke are in a tier of their own, with Kabal being the undisputed king. Let's say we remove them from the picture, then we have a larger base who can compete, but still the same problem exists, it just isn't as bad. The ideal situation would be to have as small of a gap as possible between top tier to bottom tier, to where bottom tier can still win even though they're at the bottom. Right now, mid to bottom tier can hardly ever beat top tier, and almost never beat S tier (hsmoke and kabal). That's not me saying that a character at the very bottom has no chance to win in the right hands, they'll just have to play close to perfect against even the most basic Kabal/H.Smoke. This is the problem with UMK3, this is what needs to be addressed.

So, you have some options on how you can ameliorate the rest of the cast and this situation. You can buff the entire roster so they are on the same level as these 2 characters. You can heavily nerf H.Smoke and Kabal, and nerf the next 10 or so characters, then buff the rest. Or you can simply nerf the too good characters, and buff the too bad characters. All these aren't mutually exclusive, you don't have to just go in one path, it would just be easier and less complicated that way. But you have to nerf them for the reasons that they're the best. I did have a long post on all the things that make them the best and what needs to be nerfed, but it is and should be obvious. And Smoke's airthrow in no way is what makes him a threat, just as Kabal's damage itself isn't what makes him a threat.

 

[BustaUppa]

Smoke keeps the air throw, but the recovery on hit is changed to match Kitana's fan lift from vanilla UMK3. Also the opponent now lands directly under Smoke and recovers 20 frames faster because Smoke is less strong. Boom, problem solved, plz tell the hacker that my name in the credits is the only thanks I need.