Guide - Mortal Kombat X Edition (iOS and Android) WITH FRAME DATA AND MOVE PUNISHER TOOL!

[buyacushun]

I haven't put too much thought into that to be honest. There are other things I'd like to get in before I do anything else with the notes, as much as I know you would like it. It's just one of those things I haven't had too many requests for in general. But I do have a list of things that people are asking for so it's on the list.

The next thing I'm probably going to do which will be simple, is replace the jump and dash buttons, to be shorter and more readable.

Any other requests for more inputs for Kustom Kombos? I think I have all bases covered.

I might actually do that tonight while I'm watching the finals.

That's cool. Figured I mention it anyways. Once again, Thanks for the effort. This will help countless people. There should probably be a constant link to this app so new visitors can have it.

 

[purbeast]

That's cool. Figured I mention it anyways. Once again, Thanks for the effort. This will help countless people. There should probably be a constant link to this app so new visitors can have it.

There are links to it in the first post of the thread. I will move them up to the top of the post so they are more visible.

Also, this is what I'm thinking for the new buttons for dash/jump.

Curious to get some feedback on them, or if you all prefer the "jump" and "dash" words on there. I personally felt it was a little cramped, and more than 1 person has told me they feel the same way too.

 

[buyacushun]

There are links to it in the first post of the thread. I will move them up to the top of the post so they are more visible.

Also, this is what I'm thinking for the new buttons for dash/jump.

Curious to get some feedback on them, or if you all prefer the "jump" and "dash" words on there. I personally felt it was a little cramped, and more than 1 person has told me they feel the same way too.

Those look fine. Like actual input logos for a guide or something. Also i meant like somewhere on the front page or something. To make this thread as visible as possible. Would also allow people who want to contact you a nice reliable way to do it and give you a log of requests and changes and such.

 

[purbeast]

Alright, so I've been putting something together last night and I am at a point where I can start doing calculations and stuff for a calculator.

After reading that long description of frame data, I'm still a bit confused as to how it works, especially with the reversal types (which appear to be ONLY special moves/throws) and non-reversal punishes (normals).

Could someone give me an actual real life example of a specific move that is punished by another specific move to help me grasp exactly how this math works?

Then also, what exactly is the cancel block advantage?

I got the part where if a move is -10, then you need a move that has 9 or less startup to punish it, and that if it is 9 frames, of startup, you only have 1 frame to get the input for it to punish. But then I saw that there are special reversals, that only work with special moves an throws, and that "normals" take 2 frames to startup or something? Just a bit confused.

So far I basically have it so you can pick your player, and then you pick your opponent, and the opponents move.

And then I want to list all moves that can punish that move in a table format, if it can be punished.

Other than stating the move name and that it can punish, what else would you all expect in the row for that entry? I'm thinking the amount of frames you have to punish it before it's too late to punish it. But I'm also wondering if I need a special category for punishing "cancel block advantage" types of stuff.

I'm just still a bit confused and am at the part where I have to build the table and do the math, but just not 100% certain how to do it.

 

[buyacushun]

Alright, so I've been putting something together last night and I am at a point where I can start doing calculations and stuff for a calculator.

After reading that long description of frame data, I'm still a bit confused as to how it works, especially with the reversal types (which appear to be ONLY special moves/throws) and non-reversal punishes (normals).

Could someone give me an actual real life example of a specific move that is punished by another specific move to help me grasp exactly how this math works?

Then also, what exactly is the cancel block advantage?

I got the part where if a move is -10, then you need a move that has 9 or less startup to punish it, and that if it is 9 frames, of startup, you only have 1 frame to get the input for it to punish. But then I saw that there are special reversals, that only work with special moves an throws, and that "normals" take 2 frames to startup or something? Just a bit confused.

So far I basically have it so you can pick your player, and then you pick your opponent, and the opponents move.

And then I want to list all moves that can punish that move in a table format, if it can be punished.

Other than stating the move name and that it can punish, what else would you all expect in the row for that entry? I'm thinking the amount of frames you have to punish it before it's too late to punish it. But I'm also wondering if I need a special category for punishing "cancel block advantage" types of stuff.

I'm just still a bit confused and am at the part where I have to build the table and do the math, but just not 100% certain how to do it.

specials and throws come out on the first frame. Normals take a frame extra to startup. I think this is shown in the in-game frame data.
I don't have any specific punishes for you. Haven't played in a bit sorry.
I think cancel advantage is how many more frames you get when you cancel the normal. This helps you figure out frame gaps. The cassie string b124 has a gap in between 2 and 4. This happens because the frame data of 2 = CA + (negative) BA = Less frames than the startup of 4.

EDIT: http://testyourmight.com/threads/how-to-read-understand-and-calculate-frame-data-in-mkx.49708/. This post by Eddy Wang explains the frame data pretty well.

 

[purbeast]

specials and throws come out on the first frame. Normals take a frame extra to startup. I think this is shown in the in-game frame data.
I don't have any specific punishes for you. Haven't played in a bit sorry.
I think cancel advantage is how many more frames you get when you cancel the normal. This helps you figure out frame gaps. The cassie string b124 has a gap in between 2 and 4. This happens because the frame data of 2 = CA + (negative) BA = Less frames than the startup of 4.

I'll edit with better info.

Cool thanks.

I don't need you to like know a real one off the top of your head, but just if you look at the frame data in the app and can give me an example from there that would be great.

Is the cancel block advantage something that would be helpful in a punish calculator?

 

[buyacushun]

Cool thanks.

I don't need you to like know a real one off the top of your head, but just if you look at the frame data in the app and can give me an example from there that would be great.

Is the cancel block advantage something that would be helpful in a punish calculator?

In Cassie VS. Cassie, If P1 does 121 it has -8 BA. So P2 has 2 frames to punish with Getaway Flip which has 6 frames startup. The cancel advantage of 121 is 0 so you wouldn't have to worry about a bait by P1 because they CAN'T do anything after. But if it did have cancel advantage that's when you would need to see if there was a frame gap.

If you want to make a frame gap punisher i think so. Things like fireball cancels, stance cancels, certain strings or even where the opponent cancels into a special move with a gap in between. I think this would also help in making a frame gap creator part also.

http://testyourmight.com/threads/how-to-read-understand-and-calculate-frame-data-in-mkx.49708/ This post by Eddy Wang explains the frame data pretty well. In case you didn't see my edit.

 

[purbeast]

So basically the simple equation is the following...

(opponent block advantage + your move startup) * -1 = number of frames you have to punish with that move.

In the example above,

(-8 + 6) * -1 = (-2) * -1 = 2

And that only works IF your startup is less than the positive value of the opponent block advantage value.

Right?

 

[buyacushun]

So basically the simple equation is the following...

(opponent block advantage + your move startup) * -1 = number of frames you have to punish with that move.

In the example above,

(-8 + 6) * -1 = (-2) * -1 = 2

And that only works IF your startup is less than the positive value of the opponent block advantage value.

Right?

If the block advantage is negative. Wanted to point that out in case the code makes a POSITIVE 8 block advantage move as punishable. But you have the right idea on how it works. Look through that post i linked. Should have all the equations you need. Also in the scenario i used there is no cancel available with Cassie's 121. I don't know if you want to make note of such things.

 

[purbeast]

If the block advantage is negative. Wanted to point that out in case the code makes a POSITIVE 8 block advantage move as punishable. But you have the right idea on how it works. Look through that post i linked. Should have all the equations you need. Also in the scenario i used there is no cancel available with Cassie's 121. I don't know if you want to make note of such things.

In my equation, if it was a positive 8, then the value that comes out would be -14, so that wouldn't be "punishable" with the metrics that the equation has to be greater than 1.

I have something working right now but definitely needs to be cleaned up before I want to show it, but hopefully by tomorrow I can post a little video of it.

Also I'm looking for feedback as to what exactly you would like to be in the list of move information when it says which moves can punish attacks. Right now I just have the move name + the number of frames that you have to punish.

 

[purbeast]

So I'm looking for some feedback. This is what I've got so far here.

This is the screen you would select under a selection when Cassie Cage is the character you have selected. This basically is a way where you can select any opponents move in the game, and see what move you have that can punish it, and how many frames you have to punish it.

So yeah, let me have it and please, looking for some feedback from you guys since you will be using this stuff too!

And yeah, I realize the bottom of the table is cut off, so I'm not looking for feedback as far as bugs go, just actual layout and what kind of information would be wanted with this specific tool.

I'm also thinking already of making a separate "calculator" that will basically be the opposite of this, and let you pick YOUR move and see what moves of the opponent can punish YOU. So that also is not the kind of feedback I'm looking for just yet, just looking for feedback on this specific tool.

 

[buyacushun]

So I'm looking for some feedback. This is what I've got so far here.

This is the screen you would select under a selection when Cassie Cage is the character you have selected. This basically is a way where you can select any opponents move in the game, and see what move you have that can punish it, and how many frames you have to punish it.

So yeah, let me have it and please, looking for some feedback from you guys since you will be using this stuff too!

And yeah, I realize the bottom of the table is cut off, so I'm not looking for feedback as far as bugs go, just actual layout and what kind of information would be wanted with this specific tool.

I'm also thinking already of making a separate "calculator" that will basically be the opposite of this, and let you pick YOUR move and see what moves of the opponent can punish YOU. So that also is not the kind of feedback I'm looking for just yet, just looking for feedback on this specific tool.

That looked really good. Only thing i can think of right now is to separate the moves into categories. This way it's not just a long list of every move possible. Usually when i use this kind of thing i know exactly what i'm looking for. I'll try to think of some other ways to make your app not good enough

 

[purbeast]

That looked really good. Only thing i can think of right now is to separate the moves into categories. This way it's not just a long list of every move possible. Usually when i use this kind of thing i know exactly what i'm looking for. I'll try to think of some other ways to make your app not good enough

Lol, thanks. Glad you like it.

What categories would you use?

They are already split into Special Moves and Basic Attacks (like behind the scenes) so those 2 would be easy to split up into separate lists. But other than that, what would it be? Like jumping attacks?

 

[buyacushun]

Lol, thanks. Glad you like it.

What categories would you use?

They are already split into Special Moves and Basic Attacks (like behind the scenes) so those 2 would be easy to split up into separate lists. But other than that, what would it be? Like jumping attacks?

hhmmmm. I guess the same way the game splits it up. Normals, Combos, Specials, Jumping normals.

How do you have the punishes sorted? I would've gone by frame amount but it's not that. Not saying you should just wondering if there is a sort to them at all. Figured with designing this thing you'd want an order anywhere you can.

Also, is every move for your opponent listed there?

 

[purbeast]

hhmmmm. I guess the same way the game splits it up. Normals, Combos, Specials, Jumping normals.

How do you have the punishes sorted? I would've gone by frame amount but it's not that. Not saying you should just wondering if there is a sort to them at all. Figured with designing this thing you'd want an order anywhere you can.

Also, is every move for your opponent listed there?

The punishes are sorted in the order they are in the move list (in game and in the app, which are the same).

Every Basic Attack, Kombo, and Special Move for your opponent is listed there. Variations don't matter, it will show all of them.

 

[Temjiin]

Alright, so I've been putting something together last night and I am at a point where I can start doing calculations and stuff for a calculator.

After reading that long description of frame data, I'm still a bit confused as to how it works, especially with the reversal types (which appear to be ONLY special moves/throws) and non-reversal punishes (normals).

Could someone give me an actual real life example of a specific move that is punished by another specific move to help me grasp exactly how this math works?

Then also, what exactly is the cancel block advantage?

I got the part where if a move is -10, then you need a move that has 9 or less startup to punish it, and that if it is 9 frames, of startup, you only have 1 frame to get the input for it to punish. But then I saw that there are special reversals, that only work with special moves an throws, and that "normals" take 2 frames to startup or something? Just a bit confused.

So far I basically have it so you can pick your player, and then you pick your opponent, and the opponents move.

And then I want to list all moves that can punish that move in a table format, if it can be punished.

Other than stating the move name and that it can punish, what else would you all expect in the row for that entry? I'm thinking the amount of frames you have to punish it before it's too late to punish it. But I'm also wondering if I need a special category for punishing "cancel block advantage" types of stuff.

I'm just still a bit confused and am at the part where I have to build the table and do the math, but just not 100% certain how to do it.

This is incredibly complicated and probably in the long run not going to help many people.

A few of us were going to do this already because it is a good idea but it won't work for the following reasons:

• An astonishing amount of frame data is wrong in the game and some of it is very hard to calculate.
• It takes a frame to exit block for normals but not for specials
• A lot of moves have push back so punishes won't work

These factors all mean that a decent amount of returned values will be quite useless to the average player when they want to know if something punishes a certain move. It would also be pretty bad if someone used your app mid tournament for this purpose and got blown up because of data returned from their search entry.

Not hating on your app, it's great but this isn't a black/white issue unfortunately. The battle is half lost because the data in the game is terrible.

 

[purbeast]

This is incredibly complicated and probably in the long run not going to help many people.

A few of us were going to do this already because it is a good idea but it won't work for the following reasons:

• An astonishing amount of frame data is wrong in the game and some of it is very hard to calculate.
• It takes a frame to exit block for normals but not for specials
• A lot of moves have push back so punishes won't work

These factors all mean that a decent amount of returned values will be quite useless to the average player when they want to know if something punishes a certain move. It would also be pretty bad if someone used your app mid tournament for this purpose and got blown up because of data returned from their search entry.

Not hating on your app, it's great but this isn't a black/white issue unfortunately. The battle is half lost because the data in the game is terrible.

The thing is though, if there is a way to calculate all of this stuff, then if the equations are in place, once the correct frame data is out there, then it will be correct at that time.

Right now, the punishes and stuff you see (with the video of what I have working) is calculated dynamically on the fly based on the frame data values. It's not a hard coded value for any of those punishes. So if frame data is wrong, then obviously the calculation will be wrong. But once the frame data is corrected, then the calculations will be correct.

As for the difference between exit block on normals and not specials (i'm assuming that is where the extra frame is "saved" or something for specials), then that could also be thrown in the formula pretty easily since I know which moves are specials and which are normals. I just don't know exactly what the correct information is exactly is for what this calculation is to be. I'm a bit confused because in one place I read a 9 frame startup normal can punish a -10 blocked move, but in others I read an 8 startup is the slowest that can punish a -10 blocked move (again, if the punish move is a normal).

As for the 3rd bullet point, isn't that quite situational? Like in Street Fighter, if you block a sweep at farthest range, even though according to frame data, it says a cr.lp can punish it, obviously it won't punish because you will be out of range. I thought that was just understood in certain situations. Is that not the case in MKX?

EDIT:

In the video of the punish calculator, are the punishes that I demonstrate wrong there? Assuming that the frame data IS correct, is the calculations correct? Or is it off by 1 for normals because they need to have an extra frame in there to come off the block and they aren't true reversals like specials?

 

[Temjiin]

In the video of the punish calculator, are the punishes that I demonstrate wrong there? Assuming that the frame data IS correct, is the calculations correct? Or is it off by 1 for normals because they need to have an extra frame in there to come off the block and they aren't true reversals like specials?

I just tested the example in your video and it definitely doesn't work. I think the frame data for shadow mimic is wrong.

@smokey what is mimic drop kick on block?

 

[purbeast]

I just tested the example in your video and it definitely doesn't work. I think the frame data for shadow mimic is wrong.

@smokey what is mimic drop kick on block?

What did you test with?

The frame data that is in my app (and should be the same as in game) is -19 on block. I'd be curious to see what you tried to test to punish it that didn't work, and then I can tell you the frame data in my app, and at least see if the calculation is correct, regardless of the frame data being correct/wrong.

I'm just talking that if the 2 values are X and Y, if the result is what it SHOULD be.

 

[Temjiin]

What did you test with?

The frame data that is in my app (and should be the same as in game) is -19 on block. I'd be curious to see what you tried to test to punish it that didn't work, and then I can tell you the frame data in my app, and at least see if the calculation is correct, regardless of the frame data being correct/wrong.

I'm just talking that if the 2 values are X and Y, if the result is what it SHOULD be.

Tested with Cassie's BF1 EX as in your video. Your data is the same as the one I'm working with, the provisional data from the game.

Also tested with Reptile's EX slide which is the fastest advancing special in the game at 6f... no dice. It's + I'm sure.

 

[smokey]

Shadowkick and ex are.adv on block, elbow is neutral and ex gives you a safe jump in so is like + a ton

 

[purbeast]

Tested with Cassie's BF1 EX as in your video. Your data is the same as the one I'm working with, the provisional data from the game.

Also tested with Reptile's EX slide which is the fastest advancing special in the game at 6f... no dice. It's + I'm sure.

Okay.

So in the game/app, her BF1 EX is 17 startup, and the Johnny Cage move is -19 block advantage.

So IF those numbers were correct (and I realize they aren't), then having 2 frames to pull off that move to punish would actually be correct right?

Again, I know the values may not be right, I'm just wondering if the math is correct.

 

[Temjiin]

Okay.

So in the game/app, her BF1 EX is 17 startup, and the Johnny Cage move is -19 block advantage.

So IF those numbers were correct (and I realize they aren't), then having 2 frames to pull off that move to punish would actually be correct right?

Again, I know the values may not be right, I'm just wondering if the math is correct.

It's complicated with projectiles because they don't hit immediately and have to travel distances unless point blank, but the mathematical theory is sound.

^ This is another example of why the whole thing is so complicated and possibly not viable. If it is possible to get it accurate I want to help you get it as close to viable as possible.

 

[purbeast]

It's complicated with projectiles because they don't hit immediately and have to travel distances unless point blank, but the mathematical theory is sound.

^ This is another example of why the whole thing is so complicated and possibly not viable. If it is possible to get it accurate I want to help you get it as close to viable as possible.

Yeah I know what you mean.

But I am always under the impression that people using these types of moves understand how it works. This is always how it has just been with all fighting games. The same thing happens with hadoukens in SF games and stuff. The block advantage doesn't really mean anything if you are standing very far away. But there is where other frame data can come into play if you have a move that is projectile invincible.

I just had a conversation with Eddie Wang and he cleared up some stuff I had wrong. I need to change my calculations so that normals have to have 2 frames to punish instead of 1, due to coming out of block stun. Where as specials don't have that property of coming out of block stun. So that video is wrong.

And yes, I am definitely open to help with this in getting it correct, it will end up with a better tool for the FGC. Someone already linked me to the google doc with corrected frame data. I plan to go through that before I push this update with the calculator, to fix known issues with the in game stuff.

 

[Temjiin]

Yeah I know what you mean.

But I am always under the impression that people using these types of moves understand how it works. This is always how it has just been with all fighting games. The same thing happens with hadoukens in SF games and stuff. The block advantage doesn't really mean anything if you are standing very far away. But there is where other frame data can come into play if you have a move that is projectile invincible.

I just had a conversation with Eddie Wang and he cleared up some stuff I had wrong. I need to change my calculations so that normals have to have 2 frames to punish instead of 1, due to coming out of block stun. Where as specials don't have that property of coming out of block stun. So that video is wrong.

And yes, I am definitely open to help with this in getting it correct, it will end up with a better tool for the FGC. Someone already linked me to the google doc with corrected frame data. I plan to go through that before I push this update with the calculator, to fix known issues with the in game stuff.

I'd recommend looking at our doc at least once a week because so much shit is wrong, we're flagging stuff left right and centre.

@Eddy Wang will a 9f normal not punish -10? I thought if you get the punish on the frame it would punish? You only need to exit block but that should work?