What's new

Balance Suggestions: Perfect Legend, M2Dave, Forever King, THTB and PLAYING TO W1N

i disagree with the WW changes..

#1--- lasso grab is a HIGH ATTACK that is easily duckable. i understand that b23 and b2lasso is a mini 50/50 but if b23 hits then no big deal you can wakeup and are immune to corner otg.

#2--- if you remove the otg of divepunch it should be reworked in some way because it is useless outside of the corner otg situation except for like 1 out of 15 matches you can use it to avoid some sort of predictable damage that air dash likely could have avoided anyways
its plus 6
 
Disagree with faster startup on all of Lex's projectiles. Missiles would create too easy corner resets... the way it is now is perfectly balanced with nothing guaranteed and only situational guessing games.

Disagree with faster startup on mine too. It would create stupid DD-style block situations, especially with trait up.

Probe only needs slightly faster startup and I'll be fine with that. A tweak to his dash would be nice too. Faster startup on lance blast is something I'd be on the fence about... idk if he needs to suddenly beat zoners. On hit it already gives you enough advantage to throw a probe up against a lot of chars.
FASTER STARTUP ON TRAIT, otherwise thank you for bring some brains to this black hole of a thread
 
when would that be practical midscreen when j2 is +9 and b2 is +4? almost never
j2 can be uppercut, its a decent air option, you could jump in air dash backwards and headbutt them for advantage... it shouldn't be plus 6 its an aerial special move... what about in poking situations its an instant aerial move... just because its rarely being used doesn't mean it wont find meaning as the meta evolves
 

Hiltzy85

I'm THAT fast
i disagree with this being front paged and wanna cry myself to sleep after reading this the point of flash's mb charge is it does a full combo from 3/4 screen for backdash punishment, he doesn't need a free advantage get in... god nrs FUCKED flash up from inception... such ahorrible design

supermans f2 should be 12 frames
Why, if you know that Flash can MB lightning charge you for a combo from 3/4 of the screen, would you try to backdash to run away from him? If you want to try and get away from him, why not just walk backwards? The range on his d1 is extremely short, and you can crouch the second hit of MB charge and punish him with a juggle if he does it. It's not +3 if crouch blocked...it's like -20 and Flash doesn't exactly build meter quickly
 
Why, if you know that Flash can MB lightning charge you for a combo from 3/4 of the screen, would you try to backdash to run away from him? If you want to try and get away from him, why not just walk backwards? The range on his d1 is extremely short, and you can crouch the second hit of MB charge and punish him with a juggle if he does it. It's not +3 if crouch blocked...it's like -20 and Flash doesn't exactly build meter quickly
don't mb charge unless its going to hit??? flash has things like b22 which you can backdash afterwards, on a successful read you can charge their backdash for a combo, too bad his dash buff made this redundant, and walking isn't exactly speedy, and for the record charge is difficult to punish if you are ducking and anticipating mb because of the pushback and if its meaty or not... that move is an amazing punishment tool now...

the whole point of it was because flash players were bitching about backdashes and that gave him a punisher... its a retarded move if it jailed i'd have an ulcer of game design because of how much respect that shit commands... and if we start bringing up other characters shit... two wrongs don't make a right... christ that move is obnoxious

speed dodge needs a buff but do you really need that much damage and that stupid ass shit to go along with the best dash??? is zoning a crime????? christ when that character gets his stupid ass hands on you its like afucking circus
 
omg , buff his other strings but nerf f2 please me youu are considering that. Otherwise this is bogus
My suggestions go along with the OP's suggestions, except for the damage nerf. I suggested scaling off of heat zap more instead of overall damage nerf to preserve his midscreen potential.
So yes.
 
My suggestions go along with the OP's suggestions, except for the damage nerf. I suggested scaling off of heat zap more instead of overall damage nerf to preserve his midscreen potential.
So yes.
then he doesn't need buffs to his other strings, (unless they nerf his projectiles hard and f2 hard, then he needs lots of buffs) and his damage is wonderful the way it is because he has johnny's f3 mixed with kitanas f2. that move needs to be a high, or cause hard knockdowns, or be a bit slower but then he would just suck complete monkey balls wouldn't he... maybe they should make it like 12 frames and throw flash in the garbage
 
Agree on this stuff. Especially the kontrols. I started off on alternate because of problems with inputs but then had to switch back to default in order to be able to wake up with BF moves on knockdowns with quicker rises. Also, to punish things like Lanterns might or Deathstroke's guns at ranges I kouldn't otherwise.


Disagree on this stuff. The korner stuff is just hard, which is fair. The super buff would make yolo Supers even better which is just dumb especially for characters that don't have good yolo Supers.


For the Characters, here are my opinions after reviewing it.
Blue Letters mean I disagree with.

Green Letters mean I agree with.

Normal Letters mean it's an additional suggestion.

Flash
S- Increase damage scaling during trait
R- off of a low or high starter, flash is currently able to do 51-58% off one touch
Flash still has to chase people down and make those reads, the high damage he has is a good offset to the risks he has to take and the damage he takes just to get in..

S- decrease pushback on block of normal lightning charge
R- not punishable by a large amount of the cast d/t push back. Flash already has a reliable way to approach with dodge and forward dash.

Nightwing
S- Decrease block adv of MB staff spin from +18 to +6
R- um... +18? um... +40% of a bar of meter? lets do some math. if i have you cornered and i make you block a 1 f1 staff spin MB you are eating 5 of them for x5(.16 + .10 1.25 + 1.25 + 1.25 + 1.25 + 1.5 + 2.63) = 38.15% of chip damage... holy shit batman!
Something better would be to just reduce the amount of meter it builds. This way he doesn't take a real nerf but it stops him from having his MB Staff Spin only kost almost half a bar.. Reducing the amount of chip is also an option.

Batman
-- complete character that lacks a solid "get off me move"
123 or 113 in konjunction with his good backdash are solid defenses. Not to mention he also has a parry that actually make characters like Nightwing in staff think twice. D1, D1, D1 isn't all safe against Batman. Then he also has Bats..

S - none at the moment
R - As the game evolves, this character will emerge has one of the strongest. Although he will be susceptible to rush down, with appropriate bat management he is able to have a bat on screen at all times. This COMPLETELY shuts down most of the roster when cornered and batman is at three quarter screen range and no interactibles are available.

Cyborg
S- Instant activation of trait
R- This is a trait that requires a lot of time for very little gain
His trait is useless but it kould potentially break him if it was instant since hitbox players would probably be able to heal in between shots.

S- Decrease start up of Target Acquired
R- 110 frames is a lot, his zoning is one dimensional, allow more utility of target acquired.
The start up kan become ambiguous and if the opponent is dashing in it sets up traps. It's not that good right now but if buffed kan become overpowered if not handled korrectly.

Green Arrow
As suggested by Paulo. They should kontinue on with the fix to make him crouch when he does low arrows.

S- Remove the ability to cancel to super on block strings, retain the ability to cancel to super on hit
R- as it stands, GA is able to cancel to an unavoidable (exceptions Black adam and a few others) super on block of b21 and 111
He doesn't have a B21 string... But all his block strings into Super are escapeable by everyone's backdash, even B13, 111, and 33.
It's the invincibility frames on backdashes that allow you to do this.

With that said, I think if his kancel advantage returned but he lost his ability to kancel into Super on block it would be a good idea.

Superman
S - Decrease upward hit box of F2 and slight range reduction of f2
R- Superman jails most of the characters at the beginning of a match if just framed. most characters cannot back dash, jump or walk back. At least allowing characters to jump back adds a layer to the meta game. Superman can dash forward and punish. If a character reads/guess that then they can punish or throw. A move that is arguably a top 3 normal in the game has an incredible amount of utility. Its ability to anti air in situations where a character is nowhere near Superman's animation makes it extremely powerful.

S - Breath - 4 on block
R- If Superman did not have the incredible mobility/zoning options leaving breath in its current state would be appropriate. However, there are very few characters that have the ability to zone maintain pressure and essential lock down most characters. With that said, characters with fast starting b3 can MB and interrupt supermans pressure after f23 or f23 breath. If trait is active forget about that option though.
I think the better choice would be to make is -2 but leave him klose like if breath was pulling the opponent in. He still has a 6 frame d1, F23, and backdash but now it allows for the tides of pressure to change a lil bit.

S - Decrease overall meter gain and damage
R- Maybe nerf his damage a little bit in the corner from 71% to 61%. A rage f23~db3, 3~mbbreath, db3, 3xdf1 to 3 breath is 71% with rage.

S- Slight increase of trait recovery
R- as stated

Martian manhunter
-- no comment, further exploration needed
... did you guys hot fix the overhead tele after a b13? if the tele hits u are unable to combo now? he has an OTG off MB martian grab if you didn't know

Raven
- no comment

Aquaman
S - Increase recovery of trait
R - This is a character than cannot be combo'ed/punished unless juggled. There are many characters that are unable to get any damage on this character. A top 3 trait in the game. Leave it the way it is but make players have to use in more sparingly.
In my opinion, this trait shouldn't even exist but this is better than nothing.

S- Decrease chip damage of trident rush
R- it does 18% chip?

Wonder Woman
I don't know enough about her to make a solid judgement.

Scorpion
S- Increased damage
R- the last patch really toned down his damage in addition to his character build nerfs.

I think they should also increase the hitboxes on the second hits of F11, 21, and B12 so that they hit true mid and not wiff on the majority of the kast. (Increase the hitboxes downward not extending)

Hawkgirl
S - Allow clash of MB mace charge
R- ... allow clash, its multi hitting

S- Decrease recovery on mace toss
R- in a lot of case it can be jumped on reaction and punished by other zoning options

Shazam
S - Allow trait activation similarly to superman.
R - By increasing shazams damage potential in will increase the character's viability. In high level player, this is a character that is challenged maintaining pressure

S- 22 no longer backdashable
R- See above

S- B2 will hop over opponents sometimes
R- see above
Is this a suggestion?

S- improve block adv of d3 (currently -11)
R- See Above

Green Lantern
S - Allow push block of of minigun
R- Similarly to the balance of Aquaman's Trident. Require a player to burn meter if they do not want to eat the chip damage

S- F2 hits as mid
R- as described in the in game data
He doesn't need this in addition to all his other moves.

S- 223 rocket, adjust so the rocket hits all characters on hit
R- see above

S- Slight increase in trait recovery or decrease active time of the trait
R- As stated
Two very different changes.

Batgirl
- no comments

Lobo
Don't know enough about him to make a solid judgement.

Joker
S - Further Over all buff of trait
R - Joker is an extremely popular character that is very limited in certain matchups. One dimensional.
I don't think it's the trait that he needs. It's something else, just don't know what.

Harley Quinn
- no comments

Solomon Grundy
- no comments

Zod
- various glitches exist that I am sure NRS is aware of at this time with trait

S- MB kryp rifle to hit on all characters in combos as it currently whiffs on much of the roster
R- As stated

Lex
Don't know enough about him to make a solid judgement.

I feel that he is a character that is very hard to balance. if he has incredible zoning he will be a complete character... possible one of the best

BTW lex has an inf that works on the majority of the cast people do not know about :)
So nerf??

Catwoman
- no comments

DeathStroke
S- Return character to status prior to nerfs
R- This is another tricky balance. prior to nerfs, the character was tolerable in high level play. However, DS was extremely challenged for casual players AND CONTINUES TO BE!
No. Low gunshots were mindlessly repeatable before since characters kouldn't dash on block.

S- Low GS, return to pre nerf status though tighten up the window to MB so it can be jumped. With the allowed delay, players land on it. If MB'ed right away a lot of characters can avoid it with a jump and continue their approach.
No. What I posted above: Low gunshots were mindlessly repeatable before since characters kouldn't dash on block. Not every character's jump is good. Some float in the air for a while.. Forcing players to jump against projectiles that fast is dumb.

S - Air Gunshot, return to pre nerf status
R - Even when insta air'ed it can be duck and punish by nearly everyone in the cast.
No.

S- Slight improved startup of trait or activation on trade
R- Increase usage and viability of trait.
It's a really good trait but he doesn't need it.

Ares (from alucarD)
S - 223, second hit no longer whiffs on certain characters (hawkgirl, GA et cetera)
R- as above
Even though I'm an Arrow player. I agree.

S- D1 to trait uninterrupted or a 1-4 gap to hit mashers
R- Currently u are able to interrupt d1 to low trait
D1 is six frames and allows for mix ups otherwise. You kan also interrupt Arrow's D1~Low Arrow. Why should this be any different?

Killer Frost
- no comment

Doomsday
S - Decrease upward hit box of venom/mb venom, increase recovery on whiff
R- This has a phatom hit box that randomly hits high arc characters at the peak of their jump. reward a player for showing poise and anticipating this monster.
Not sure about this. This is at discretion.

S - Decrease behind the head hit box of earth shake
R- See above description, this hits behind his head where there is no animation.
lol...

Sinestro
S- B12, allow the 2 to hit as mid and remain -5 OR make b1 -3
R- Sinestro's largest hole is his mid range game. Give sinestro a footsies tool!

S- Improve block advantage of boulder currently -43
R- it is punished by every zoning tool in the game (for the most part). its used in anticipation of jumps, hard to react to low arc jumping characters. limited full screed usage in high level play. its a risk...

Only if they nerf the trait build up. He kan build a significant amount on knockdowns...

Black Adam
As suggested by Sabin. His strings when kancelled into trait should have push back. That way he doesn't have guaranteed damage like: A string into trait, then throw, guaranteeing damage even if you tech.

S- Decrease adv and meter gain of MB lightning
R- an incredible zoning tool that anti airs, hits low and trip guards... risk/reward

S- Increase recovery of trait
R- It has very good utility and one of the best match closers in the game. risk/reward

S- B23 minus on block or increase push back out of d1 range
R- a safe launcher that is 35% plus on hit confirm or +3 for continued pressure is too strong. Risk/reward to be considered here

Bane
S- ability to cancel Raging Charge in first few active frames
R- give him a juke... its very easy to jump for full punishes. give bane the ability to juke his opponents so its not so obvious

S- Venom x2 with 2 hits of armor and Venom x3 with 3 hits of armor
R- as stated
Seems too ridiculous. He needs something other than the quick remedy of armor.

Most of this i really like, alot... and we usually don't agree that much, i am mostly in agreement with you, especially on lex and cyborg and batman
but

1.i don't think breath is what we should be focusing on to fix supes... at the end of the day its the footsie advantage he gets off of f2, im not sure how we fix it without screwing him up but hes just so goddamn boring and that move is op
2.deathstroke nerf was unreasonable, he atleast needs better chip, theres no pressure to get in on him because he doesn't do as much chip... no sure about the nerf to recovery... hes on the hinge of being viable
3. All those nerfs together might hurt good ole BA a bit much... they are all good ideas, so is dealing with his backdash
4. I'd like to see a nerf to aqua's trait, but i agree its dumb

I feel like if given the opportunity to design this game i'd make a TON of changes... especially in a lot of character designs.... I feel characters like aquaman and flash have so much potential to be really fun designs and should have ben made differently... i feel that way about a lot of characters.... aquas not dreadful but his trait sucks and he could have been a really fun zoner with like shark based moves. Flash is ghastly along with superman...
 

J0A0B

Noob
Really? Nobody in that lineup is considering a buff for Raven? I've noticed many people are disappointed in her extremely weak anti-air tactics. Can't people suggest an improvement in the hitbox of her Singularity or Event Horizon to effect opponents at a distance above her head? You know, like Lantern's Might ALREADY is? This could help reduce her disadvantaged matchups who abuse jumping and crossup strategies. How about updating the safety of her wakeups as well? At this point, she has ZERO safe wakeup options. They're all vulnerable to being countered when the opponent is up close (especially when she's cornered). Raven is pretty easy to pick on when people decide to go ALL PRESSURE on her. I hope some of the tournament players are keeping this in mind.
 
Its confusing and kind of depressing how the majority of people wouldn't even put Raven in their top15 list yet are justifying buffs for characters they find to be overall better and suggest Raven should stay the same.

There is such little representation for her outside of a few people who casually have her as a sidemain so she just gets ignored all the time. Her range game is good in a good handful of matchups so people assume she is without her own flaws. Its almost like because she is in the middle between great and horrible that she has become the middle child, doomed to be ignored and untouched by changes from her parents at NRS.

It's like people forget she exists.
doesn't she have daddy issues?
 

Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
Honestly the Bane buffs are meh. The scaling venom to level is the best idea, but Raging Charge being cancelled does nothing for us. There is no "juke" to be had, the only time this would come into play is near full screen where people can jump it mid-charge instead of simply when its starting. If you want something good for him, make f.2 safer on block.
 

CY MasterHavik

Master of Chaos and Jax
"Superman
S - Decrease upward hit box of F2
R- Superman jails most of the characters at the beginning of a match if just framed. most characters cannot back dash, jump or walk back. At least allowing characters to jump back adds a layer to the meta game. Superman can dash forward and punish. If a character reads/guess that then they can punish or throw. A move that is arguably a top 3 normal in the game has an incredible amount of utility. Its ability to anti air in situations where a character is nowhere near Superman's animation makes it extremely powerful.

S - Breath - 4 on block
R- If Superman did not have the incredible mobility/zoning options leaving breath in its current state would be appropriate. However, there are very few characters that have the ability to zone maintain pressure and essential lock down most characters. With that said, characters with fast starting b3 can MB and interrupt supermans pressure after f23 or f23 breath. If trait is active forget about that option though.

S - Decrease overall meter gain"

Me: People will still complain.

"Death Stroke
S- Return character to status prior to nerfs
R- This is another tricky balance. prior to nerfs, the character was tolerable in high level play. However, DS was extremely challenged for casual players AND CONTINUES TO BE!

S- Low GS, return to pre nerf status though tighten up the window to MB so it can be jumped. With the allowed delay, players land on it. If MB'ed right away a lot of characters can avoid it with a jump and continue their approach.

S - Air Gunshot, return to pre nerf status
R - Even when insta air'ed it can be duck and punish by nearly everyone in the cast.

S- Slight improved startup of trait or activation on trade
R- Increase usage and viability of trait."

Me: Translation- People suck at this game if they still can't beat him. Return him to how he was and leave him alone. It makes me sick to my stomach how dumb people are.


 

Backfire

Noob
Strange you've left quite a few characters out.

But for Harley her b22 string works at different ranges on different characters which is really annoying and should be fixed.

Her cartwheel should be an overhead.

That's about it for Harley, she's actually pretty good.
 

Red Reaper

The Hyrax Whisperer
Most of this i really like, alot... and we usually don't agree that much, i am mostly in agreement with you, especially on lex and cyborg and batman
but

1.i don't think breath is what we should be focusing on to fix supes... at the end of the day its the footsie advantage he gets off of f2, im not sure how we fix it without screwing him up but hes just so goddamn boring and that move is op
2.deathstroke nerf was unreasonable, he atleast needs better chip, theres no pressure to get in on him because he doesn't do as much chip... no sure about the nerf to recovery... hes on the hinge of being viable
3. All those nerfs together might hurt good ole BA a bit much... they are all good ideas, so is dealing with his backdash
4. I'd like to see a nerf to aqua's trait, but i agree its dumb

I feel like if given the opportunity to design this game i'd make a TON of changes... especially in a lot of character designs.... I feel characters like aquaman and flash have so much potential to be really fun designs and should have ben made differently... i feel that way about a lot of characters.... aquas not dreadful but his trait sucks and he could have been a really fun zoner with like shark based moves. Flash is ghastly along with superman...

I don't think Breath is the problem either but Superman players need that random normal to throw out there and if they're always minus after it (except when trait kancelled) then it makes them have to play defense (which he's still good at anyway but we kan at least punish predictable backdashes). With his trait nerfed he would have to think.

I think Deathstroke is good. Only reason I don't use him is because I prefer other characters. He's actually one of the more interesting good characters. I picked him up after the nerf... If people don't want to get in then just keep shooting and building meter.

The reason I want B23 to be minus is so that they start using their other plus strings for advantage... His trait kan still be used in kombos and kan still be activated from farther ranges..

Aquaman's trait is the most fucked up thing about him. His AA is also ridiculous when no other character has an anti-air that good. There's some characters like that that I don't know how to change because I think they were fundamentally designed to be fucked up if they're remotely good. Like Cyborg and Lex. Either they're krap or they're godlike.
 

coolwhip

Noob
Why is this list done by people who don't understand some chars? Get Tom or reo in here

Because they're all from Ohio and were just giving their two cents. So it's sort of like the Ohio scene giving its opinion. I doubt this is official or anything, so I don't see the big deal. I agree with your point though, that unless you play a character or at the very least, have a lot of experience playing against a character, any buff/nerf suggestion can be very misguided.

PS: Tom and REO wanted Scorpion banned.
 

Ninj

Where art thou, MKX Skarlet?
BTW lex has an inf that works on the majority of the cast people do not know about :)
I thought this site was about revealing tech and improving the overall skill level of all players. If you posted this in the Lex forums in a post by itself you would be flamed until there was nothing left of you.

Catwoman
- no comments

Not much should be changed about Catwoman. There's some argument that her MB Catdash should have multiple hits of armor, but I disagree. I think the key piece of her that ought to be looked at is her evade skill. It's great that it works against a lot of projectiles and builds trait, but up close there's no situation that anyone has been able to find yet where using evade is better than either backdashing or blocking. That's a shame, as the move is basically limited to high-evading Superman's lasers.
 

SaJa

FH_FenriR
his dash is retarded, and his strings being duckable are redundant, f2 lk and d12 whatever is bs... it is a hit confirmable unreactable mixup, one off a fucking downpoke that leads to fifty percent,


boohoo i have to respect your stupid lightning charge and deal with your unreactable dash all day and ill be crouching and cant punish your meter burn lightning... he's retarded..


You have to respect the fact that you don't know the matchup and fear before Flash.
Yes, Flash does 50% everytimes he pokes you. I think you are retarded.
 

THTB

Arez | Booya | Riu48 - Rest Easy, Friends
Because they're all from Ohio and were just giving their two cents. So it's sort of like the Ohio scene giving its opinion. I doubt this is official or anything, so I don't see the big deal. I agree with your point though, that unless you play a character or at the very least, have a lot of experience playing against a character, any buff/nerf suggestion can be very misguided.

PS: Tom and REO wanted Scorpion banned.
That's kinda why my list is pretty much the shortest. I only use GL and Shazam (and I just picked up Shazam, so my opinions on what he needs are probably not what he actually needs). So I don't feel I know enough to give that much input on other characters.