Balance Suggestions: Perfect Legend, M2Dave, Forever King, THTB and PLAYING TO W1N

[PLAYING TO WIN]

If Aquaman's trait is going to have increased cooldown and shorter duration then you make him safer again.

please elaborate

 

[ELC]

Scorpian
S- Increased damage
R- the last patch really toned down his damage in addition to his character build nerfs.
---
If I may make a suggestion to this based off my observations in the lab and my expectations for realism in terms of modifying move properties?

Scorpion would have significantly more damage potential if his trait had a wider and/or taller hitbox. As it is now, his trait is pretty much unreliable in combos and useless outside of combos. With a bigger hitbox, I believe he would be able to get a vortex attempt with the use of his trait without sacrificing that much meterless damage.

An example "combo" to show what I mean: B1 2 Tele 1 1 Trait whiffs on the trait due to the lack of a horizontal hitbox. Same for B2 xx Tele 1 1 Trait. Heck, even though B3 ji.3 Tele Trait works (at least on bigger characters), it requires a mix of lax and strict timing just to execute it by itself (not possible after MB Spear).

 

[PLAYING TO WIN]

Scorpian
S- Increased damage
R- the last patch really toned down his damage in addition to his character build nerfs.
---
If I may make a suggestion to this based off my observations in the lab and my expectations for realism in terms of modifying move properties?

Scorpion would have significantly more damage potential if his trait had a wider and/or taller hitbox. As it is now, his trait is pretty much unreliable in combos and useless outside of combos. With a bigger hitbox, I believe he would be able to get a vortex attempt with the use of his trait without sacrificing that much meterless damage.

An example "combo" to show what I mean: B1 2 Tele 1 1 Trait whiffs on the trait due to the lack of a horizontal hitbox. Same for B2 xx Tele 1 1 Trait. Heck, even though B3 ji.3 Tele Trait works (at least on bigger characters), it requires a mix of lax and strict timing just to execute it by itself (not possible after MB Spear).

Perfect Legend

 

[its_ezie]

Grundy can get upwards of 90%, I believe. However, he gets outzoned easily.

i mean yea but his WC has 3 hits of armor if whatever zoning tool a person uses isnt hitting 3 or more times a good grundy player will take there time and work their way in. what bad matchups does he really have besides superman that he truely gets blown up in?

 

[TJ Casters]

me too and i hate that asshole

Anyways, I'm done with the Superman suggestions.
-Scale off of heat zap more rather than overall damage reduction
-Help midscreen meterless damage a bit
-Slightly buff his other strings

I think this would keep him balanced without making him butt.
Compbros Gurimmjaw knoterror xQUANTUMx
Anything else?

 

[TJ Casters]

i mean yea but his WC has 3 hits of armor if whatever zoning tool a person uses isnt hitting 3 or more times a good grundy player will take there time and work their way in. what bad matchups does he really have besides superman that he truely gets blown up in?

I think there's quite a few really. However, I'm no Grundy expert.

 

[atljonesbro1]

a safe b 12 is all u need with the boulder buff

Yeah looking back at the post it does seem awful greedy lol. B12 can still lead to reset situations with just less damage to start. I agree with your suggestions and would be content with those buffs.

 

[chores]

i disagree with the WW changes..

#1--- lasso grab is a HIGH ATTACK that is easily duckable. i understand that b23 and b2lasso is a mini 50/50 but if b23 hits then no big deal you can wakeup and are immune to corner otg.

#2--- if you remove the otg of divepunch it should be reworked in some way because it is useless outside of the corner otg situation except for like 1 out of 15 matches you can use it to avoid some sort of predictable damage that air dash likely could have avoided anyways

 

[PLAYING TO WIN]

i disagree with the WW changes..

#1--- lasso grab is a HIGH ATTACK that is easily duckable. i understand that b23 and b2lasso is a mini 50/50 but if b23 hits then no big deal you can wakeup and are immune to corner otg.

#2--- if you remove the otg of divepunch it should be reworked in some way because it is useless outside of the corner otg situation except for like 1 out of 15 matches you can use it to avoid some sort of predictable damage that air dash likely could have avoided anyways

it is my understanding that OTGs were not intended to be in this games design. just a rumor though

 

[its_ezie]

I think there's quite a few really. However, I'm no Grundy expert.

i mean AK lordofthefly stated a good amount of his matchups are 5-5 or better besides i think hawkgirl and superman on the bideo pig of the hut posted yesterday ( it was bascially a grundy guide) but yea im not either but thats what he said

 

[SaJa]

your thinking to close minded on the utility of this trait. it is not all for combos... he has near unblockables man!

Dude, I know most of people don't know that character. I know most of you only know he can do 50-60% from his trait. That's all people has in mind.

Unblokable ? What are you talking about ? His trait is only usefull for combos or gimmicks. flash can't block while using it, and his infinites are useless as long as you can pushblock. His trait is 20 fucking seconds. Which means that you only see it once per game (and pray to not drop it). The second one will get reset by waggers.

-Flash has no projectile at all.
-He has no jail string at all (yes, everything is backdashable, except d1d2)
-Everything can be duck (except d1d2 and f2, but everything coming out after his f2 can be --duck, his b22f3 whiffs on most of the cast once they crouch)
-He has shit reach despite his b2 which is 15f.
-He has only 1 mid starter : b2 (15f).
-Flash's charge is 11f from the closest reach distance. flash can't punish a DS's fireshot if he is not at the closest distance.
-Flash's jumps aren't great and his ji2 makes ridiculous reduced damage (-4% combo).
-No chip damage for being up close.
-Meter dependant, but no zoning.
-Around 25% meterless combos.
-Every specials are very and easily punishable.

I'm not saying he sucks. I'm just saying he is not top 5 and he may be not top 10 once people will figure out the matchup properly.

Flash has a lot of bad matchups like GL, WW, BA, Aquaman, Superman, HG and probably more and compare to most of the top tier, he has hard executions.

 

[PLAYING TO WIN]

I agree with almost all of these.

almost? elaborate?

 

[chores]

it is my understanding that OTGs were not intended to be in this games design. just a rumor though

thats true. i mean if her corner OTG were removed she would still be extremely solid. it would change her midscreen game a lot though because currently a lot of her footsies revolve around b2'ing people into the corner or the threat of b2'ing ppl to the corner. im no expert, certainly not as good as any of the original posters in this thread. i just think she is good how she is now. top 10 footsies, top 5 corner game, zero real zoning outside of ~dash range, and top 10 mobility. in the corner without the OTG she still has very high corner damage, a 50/50, and a good control tool with b2. so probably still a top 10 corner game

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

PLAYING TO W1N

I agree with 95% of the first post

It's amazing how great minds think alike

I even agree w PL on most of his

I don't agree w alucard on d1 trait uninterruptible

Great great post

 

[Bildslash]

please elaborate

Aquaman has amazing footsies but on block he gets nothing. It's either negative or unsafe. The reason he gets away with that is his trait.

I'm all up for his trait to stop being a constant breaker. But if characters like NW can have a safe and hit confirmable 50/50 (Staff 1 b1, 1 f2) then AM could use a frame improvement on his strings on block.

 

[TJ Casters]

Dude, I know most of people don't know that character. I know most of you only know he can do 50-60% from his trait. That's all people has in mind.

Unblokable ? What are you talking about ? His trait is only usefull for combos or gimmicks. flash can't block while using it, and his infinites are useless as long as you can pushblock. His trait is 20 fucking seconds. Which means that you only see it once per game (and pray to not drop it). The second one will get reset by waggers.

Flash has no projectile at all.
He has no jail string at all (yes, everything is backdashable, except d1d2)
Everything can be duck (except d1d2 and f2, but everything coming out after his f2 can be duck, his b22f3 whiffs on most of the cast once they crouch)
He has shit reach despite his b2 which is 15f.
He has only 1 mid starter : b2 (15f).
Flash's charge is 11f from the closest reach distance. flash can't punish a DS's fireshot if he is not at the closest distance.
Flash's jumps aren't great and his ji2 makes ridiculous reduced damage (-4% combo).

I'm not saying he sucks. I'm just saying he is not top 5 and he may be not top 10 once people will figure out the matchup properly.

Flash has a lot of bad matchups like GL, WW, BA, Aquaman, Superman, HG and probably more and compare to most of the top tier, he has hard executions.

Phase dodge is trait cancellable, so you can punish DS guns at max range for 61%. See Zyphox's videos.
Also see post by KDZ in "The Superman Nerf Chronicles". Flash gives Superman trouble.
I know Flash has meterless combos in the upper 30s. I've seen them done.
This character has a lot of good options, but I don't have the movelist in front of me. Zyphox

 

[Deyrax]

What's the point of this when NRS will do even more fucked up changes than these ?

 

[PLAYING TO WIN]

PLAYING TO W1N

I agree with 95% of the first post

It's amazing how great minds think alike

I even agree w PL on most of his

I don't agree w alucard on d1 trait uninterruptible

Great great post

no way you can agree with flash's lightening dash thing not being duckable on second hit though... i really worry if shazams psycho crusher is safe. not sure how to challenge it since b3 mb couldn't work (it would pass through at certain ranges)

ohhh and a lil tid bit speaking of flash. d1d2d3 is -9 and he briefly stands so you can 111FS him... weird but nice

pig if you sent me a list i will update this with your info man

same with REO if he can resist trolling us

 

[PLAYING TO WIN]

thats true. i mean if her corner OTG were removed she would still be extremely solid. it would change her midscreen game a lot though because currently a lot of her footsies revolve around b2'ing people into the corner or the threat of b2'ing ppl to the corner. im no expert, certainly not as good as any of the original posters in this thread. i just think she is good how she is now. top 10 footsies, top 5 corner game, zero real zoning outside of ~dash range, and top 10 mobility. in the corner without the OTG she still has very high corner damage, a 50/50, and a good control tool with b2. so probably still a top 10 corner game

well said... we played the other night right?

 

[Jimmypotato]

Let's do some math. If NW has full bar and manages to corner you when you have no meter, then you deserve to lose all your health. Be smart with your meter management. Nightwing is fine the way he is.

Also, you can avoid the 111xxsuper by backdashing (@GodsLonelyMan has thoroughly tested this, hell there's even a thread.)
I'm assuming you mean b23, which is avoidable by neutral jumping (I think.....someone helo me out.)

Man, I see alotta nerfs to alotta characters here lol.

In regards to Arrow

Yes 111~Super is avoidable,
http://www.testyourmight.com/threads/how-to-escape-green-arrows-reset.33247/

B13~Super on block- this string does not need to be nerfed. The B23 string was already nerfed and took away all the good shit. As well as the nerf on F2D13. B13 is slow as shit on start up, doesn't have great range, pushes the character back so you don't have any great follow ups, the only thing he has is super off it, and if you are scarred of it and know its coming, just get hit by the 3 of B13 and the super will not hit you.

Unless the arrow player is a fuckin Jedi he will already be dialing in Super after the B13 string because of the way this game works, he will not be able to stop himself from doing super if you let yourself get hit by the 3. And even if he does, it is not a hard knockdown and does fuck all for damage.

Also, some characters can get out of it anyways.

Honestly he needs some small buffs to keep up with the rest of the cast and the new characters that roll him like fuckin Bread Dough

 

[SaJa]

Phase dodge is trait cancellable, so you can punish DS guns at max range for 61%. See Zyphox's videos.
Also see post by KDZ in "The Superman Nerf Chronicles". Flash gives Superman trouble.
This character has a lot of good options, but I don't have the movelist in front of me. Zyphox

A good superman will have to use lasers and breath just to make flash trying to get close from fullscreen again. And Flash has no projectile which means that he has to deal with f23 breath everytimes he goes in and again, Flash' string don't have a decent range beside his very slow b22.
I've seen KDZ against a flash, and it was fucking one sided lol. I believe he likes downplaying his main, especially since people saw what superman was capable of at EVO.

Dodge speed into trait isn't viable at all since the active frame are weird (working only in the middle of the string). Just try it in a real game and come back here. Also, if DS decide to MB his fire shot, you'll lose 20sec trait (for around 30sec round you will cry) and some life to get back fullscreen again with no option but dashing.

 

[dotunderscore]

If Deathstroke v1 is coming back Harley would like a MB option for an armored Silly Slide and the option to cancel into other specials (preferrably not just at the end)

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

no way you can agree with flash's lightening dash thing not being duckable on second hit though... i really worry if shazams psycho crusher is safe. not sure how to challenge it since b3 mb couldn't work (it would pass through at certain ranges)

ohhh and a lil tid bit speaking of flash. d1d2d3 is -9 and he briefly stands so you can 111FS him... weird but nice

pig if you sent me a list i will update this with your info man

IMO flash DOES NOT NEED MB torpedo to jail or hit ducking opponents. That is stupid

He needs dmg nerf

Anyone who thinks flash needs another buff just isn't very good

 

[PLAYING TO WIN]

IMO flash DOES NOT NEED MB torpedo to jail or hit ducking opponents. That is stupid

He needs dmg nerf

Anyone who thinks flash needs another buff just isn't very good

two touches and your dead. if he baits out a wakeup move he can punish... safe over head and low if he cancels to kick thing after d1d2. frame data says b21 (or f21 i forget ) is -9 but that is not true.

 

[TJ Casters]

A good superman will have to use lasers and breath just to make flash trying to get close from fullscreen again. And Flash has no projectile which means that he has to deal with f23 breath everytimes he goes in.
I've seen KDZ against a flash, and it was fucking one sided lol. I believe he likes downplaying his main, especially since people saw what superman is capable of at EVO.

Dodge speed into trait isn't viable at all since the active frame are weird (working only in the middle of the string). Just try it in a real game and come back here. Also, if DS decide to MB his fire shot, you'll lose 20sec trait (for around 30sec round you will cry) and some life.

I've done it. I play Superman primarily, but I play almost the whole roster.
You can do the same Phase Dodge -->Trait--->Running Man Stance into a combo for Superman's heat zap (db3) as well. There is no MB version of this, so Flash can still get in and punish for 61%. Deathstroke MB guns I guess ruin it, though. You're right about that one.
Flash is a beast. Really, watch Zyphox's stuff. It's terrifying.