Match-up Discussion Zyphox's Controversial Flash MU Chart

[HoneyBee]

I think Bane is 5-5 at best for Flash could even be 6-4 Bane. He can stop Bane from charging with speed dodge yeah but he also has a huge problem waking up against Bane. If Bane times his moves right he will almost always stuff MB LC on wake up, you can try to charge LK in case of throw but all other options beat it. Getting out of the corner against Bane is a nightmare. MB Speed dodge can work but just like LK it is a total guess and if you are in a transition corner and he has meter+venom you can eat 60+% for a wrong guess.

Hawkgirl I think is 4-6 in her favor. Flash has no way to condition her to do anything. Flying uppercut can reach her but can also whiff pretty easy and get punished. Getting in is a patience game that involved eating chip from her until you are within jump in range and she mace charges across the screen away from you again.

Wait, you're saying Flash vs Bane can be 6-4 in Bane's favor? Basically every character besides the ones with teleport get raped by Bane's oki game. If you wanna base the MU on that fact then Bane win's practically every MU.

And why do you have to do some form of wakeup attack if you get knocked down? If you just hold back you'll block his venom uppercut or his double punch and then you're free to do what you want. Flash's standing 2 rapes Bane's armor so he can't repeatedly double punch cause you'll get a %60 punish.

Of course he can command grab you but a neutral jump beats that which also leads to a 60% punish.

 

[WITNESS]

I think Bane is 5-5 at best for Flash could even be 6-4 Bane. He can stop Bane from charging with speed dodge yeah but he also has a huge problem waking up against Bane. If Bane times his moves right he will almost always stuff MB LC on wake up, you can try to charge LK in case of throw but all other options beat it. Getting out of the corner against Bane is a nightmare. MB Speed dodge can work but just like LK it is a total guess and if you are in a transition corner and he has meter+venom you can eat 60+% for a wrong guess.

Flash says hi bane I break your armor for free, I can phase through all your wake ups eat my 60%+ combo when your on debuff 6-4 flash

 

[SEV]

there is no reason WW beats flash, and flash beats GA, give me a reason flash doesn't decimate cyborg or grundy? 6 - 4 means slight advantage, 7 - 3 means advantageous MU, a 6 - 4 would be flash vs raven, where raven can't zone unless in trait, but still gets by with short jump, decent footsies, and decent damage. flash vs cyborg is, cyborg can only do a ground fireball and flash can check him after ever block fireball with LC, which cyborg can't punish on block anyway. i was thinking about listing that 8 - 2 since cyborg's wake ups are punishable on block and have no upclose game. i don't understand, maybe your flash vs these characters are YOUR numbers, but in general flash gives DD problems as well as GA.

Simmer down meow, no reason to go firing off on all cylinders. And yes they are my opinions obviously, not simply based on how I do against them personally because I generally do well against GA and DD, but the way you say it makes it seem like yours are facts set in stone. I mean LotF is in here saying he thinks the Grundy MU is 6-4 and Whitboi saying he thinks DD is 5-5 so I'm not the only one in those respects. Cyborg could be 7-3 but from what I've played, considering the lack of Cyborgs to play, I haven't found a reason personally that makes Flash absolutely dominate the MU, I don't think Flash 7-3s Joker and to me GA feels pretty even with the main advantage being damage output, nothing dominant in the neutral game. WoWo I feel is at advantage because she out ranges him in the neutral game, has a better footsie game by a bit, and is meterless; nothing dominant but I just think the advantages add up in the grand scope of things. And again, just my opinion.

 

[Phosferrax]

Dunno about the claim of top 3 corner game. MMH, WoWo, Zatanna, Joker and Bane have better corner games imo.

 

[Jim]

Wait, you're saying Flash vs Bane can be 6-4 in Bane's favor? Basically every character besides the ones with teleport get raped by Bane's oki game. If you wanna base the MU on that fact then Bane win's practically every MU.

And why do you have to do some form of wakeup attack if you get knocked down? If you just hold back you'll block his venom uppercut or his double punch and then you're free to do what you want. Flash's standing 2 rapes Bane's armor so he can't repeatedly double punch cause you'll get a %60 punish.

Of course he can command grab you but a neutral jump beats that which also leads to a 60% punish.

Holding back against Bane opens you up to d1~whatever he feels like and d2~whatever he feels like (mostly command grab) Bane's footsies are not just his armored moves alone, his d1, and d2 and incredible moves. The range alone makes him impossible to approach. The recovery is amazing and range is deceptively far, Flash's standing 2 only works at point blank range.

Flash says hi bane I break your armor for free, I can phase through all your wake ups eat my 60%+ combo when your on debuff 6-4 flash

You aren't factoring in things like Bane waking up with a normal into a special. The normal will whiff through speed dodge but your opponent's normals still cancel when hitting speed dodge. So you speed dodge wake up d1 and it instantly cancels into double punch. You MB speed dodge and he armors right through it and beats you on wake up.

If I'm wrong awesome I have no problem admitting it but I play the best Bane offline every week. We've gone through all both of your suggestions in training mode several times. Flash has options for sure but I think both of you drastically underrate Bane's footsies. If any other Flash players are coming to UFGT I'd love to see a first to 10 with you vs @GGA Max. I'm not saying this to call you out, I'd legit love to see a good strategy for fighting Bane but nothing I'm seeing here convinces me yet.

 

[HomeLee1121]

one day we will play zyphox.....but i agree

 

[WhatTheGrayson]

I agree with Flash being 5-5 but once we get into staff its a mild 5.5-4.5 for us..?

 

[juicepouch]

i mean flash has things that fucks with the grundle, b3 and f3 being air born, interrupting tick throws for huge damage, grundy really can't approach flash, and i think LK having throw immune as well as SP makes it really hard for grundy to do anything, also grundy's jump is so floaty too, my offense is just way better than grundies and i match the damage.

Can't Grundy AA grab you out of your airborn stuff? I know he can grab NW out of his flipkick and DS from his F3, I imagine the principle would be the same, serving to provide a counter to stop you from constantly going to try and stay away from getting traited by SG

 

[fr stack]

Can't Grundy AA grab you out of your airborn stuff? I know he can grab NW out of his flipkick and DS from his F3, I imagine the principle would be the same, serving to provide a counter to stop you from constantly going to try and stay away from getting traited by SG

its mainly his multi hitting moves that wreck grundy and the frame traps

 

[juicepouch]

its mainly his multi hitting moves that wreck grundy and the frame traps

I figured that much, I was just wondering why it mattered so much that he could be in the air when G could just throw him back down again

 

[xKhaoTik]

Zod is the only character in the game that for some BS reason makes Flash's B22 whiff which lets him get a full combo punish. That in itself is enough to say this MU isn't in Flash's favor.

Whiffs on frost too at a certain range. But I agree, whiffing on zod 100% of the time is BS

 

[WITNESS]

Holding back against Bane opens you up to d1~whatever he feels like and d2~whatever he feels like (mostly command grab) Bane's footsies are not just his armored moves alone, his d1, and d2 and incredible moves. The range alone makes him impossible to approach. The recovery is amazing and range is deceptively far, Flash's standing 2 only works at point blank range.



You aren't factoring in things like Bane waking up with a normal into a special. The normal will whiff through speed dodge but your opponent's normals still cancel when hitting speed dodge. So you speed dodge wake up d1 and it instantly cancels into double punch. You MB speed dodge and he armors right through it and beats you on wake up.

If I'm wrong awesome I have no problem admitting it but I play the best Bane offline every week. We've gone through all both of your suggestions in training mode several times. Flash has options for sure but I think both of you drastically underrate Bane's footsies. If any other Flash players are coming to UFGT I'd love to see a first to 10 with you vs @GGA Max. I'm not saying this to call you out, I'd legit love to see a good strategy for fighting Bane but nothing I'm seeing here convinces me yet.

Holding back against Bane opens you up to d1~whatever he feels like and d2~whatever he feels like (mostly command grab) Bane's footsies are not just his armored moves alone, his d1, and d2 and incredible moves. The range alone makes him impossible to approach. The recovery is amazing and range is deceptively far, Flash's standing 2 only works at point blank range.



You aren't factoring in things like Bane waking up with a normal into a special. The normal will whiff through speed dodge but your opponent's normals still cancel when hitting speed dodge. So you speed dodge wake up d1 and it instantly cancels into double punch. You MB speed dodge and he armors right through it and beats you on wake up.

If I'm wrong awesome I have no problem admitting it but I play the best Bane offline every week. We've gone through all both of your suggestions in training mode several times. Flash has options for sure but I think both of you drastically underrate Bane's footsies. If any other Flash players are coming to UFGT I'd love to see a first to 10 with you vs @GGA Max. I'm not saying this to call you out, I'd legit love to see a good strategy for fighting Bane but nothing I'm seeing here convinces me yet.

Footies? Oh you mean d1 dash d1 got you I've played plenty of bane players it's not in his favor

 

[AK Harold]

Who cares about MU numbers I will beat 90% of you regardless of picks.

 

[Awkward Sloth]

i've gone a set without dropping a combo set up, WB

Go a whole tourney like that and I'll buy you Flash swag. You can hold me to that.

 

[BiPolarExxpress]

Who cares about MU numbers I will beat 90% of you regardless of picks.

That confidence. I love it

 

[xKhaoTik]

Who cares about MU numbers I will beat 90% of you regardless of picks.

I'm glad we have the same mindset lol

 

[Zyphox]

Who cares about MU numbers I will beat 90% of you regardless of picks.

i would like to hear your MU opinions though since your the only other successful tournament flash so far (in america). does HG beat flash like Freepound aka @AK Trepound380 says?

 

[AK Harold]

I think it is a tough match, if I had more time against it I would even the MU out. Problem I have as a player is time, I am too weak to keep up with the hardcore gamers here. I played PPJ in a short set too and it opened up a few more ideas. It is definitely a game changing mu. The best example I can think of with my experience is to say Zangief changes how I play tremendously in ST as Blanka. I think it may be similar to that where no, Blanka wins well in that MU but he does have to alter to a specific strategy. I just haven't had enough games against HG to formulate that yet. Most of my other MU I have broken down but a handful.​

 

[juicepouch]

Footies? Oh you mean d1 dash d1 got you I've played plenty of bane players it's not in his favor

Shouldn't you be more willing to listen to what @Jim has to say? He is the one grinding the MU with Max every single week offline for months now, I would wager if anyone has a pulse on how it goes down between flash and bane it would be those 2

 

[WITNESS]

Shouldn't you be more willing to listen to what @Jim has to say? He is the one grinding the MU with Max every single week offline for months now, I would wager if anyone has a pulse on how it goes down between flash and bane it would be those 2

See that's the issue it's just them playing I think we all need to play different people who use the same character you really can't play just one player and say hey this mu is this this and this, I try to play as many different people as I can, everyone plays differently and if you play the same person over and over again you will figure them at sooner or later

 

[Rodrigue]

i've played all the WW's besides filipinoman, you basically have to outfootsies her, bait her in trying to stuff your dash and whiff punish, both character are equally fucked up in the corner and me and foxy go even as well as me and master KDZ.

Guess I'll just have to watch your matches against foxy a couple more times. Been giving flash his fair share of attention lately. I played an excellent MMH today. Turned out to be pretty even. As for WW, I still think she outfootsies flash. Her b2 and air charge thingy keeps him in check. The only time I can really get my game going is when I bait her wake ups or punish a whiffed b133/ 33 after a backdash and that's about it. MB LC catches them off guard sometimes. I try to go with stages with a background bounce to maximize the damage

 

[HoneyBee]

Holding back against Bane opens you up to d1~whatever he feels like and d2~whatever he feels like (mostly command grab) Bane's footsies are not just his armored moves alone, his d1, and d2 and incredible moves. The range alone makes him impossible to approach. The recovery is amazing and range is deceptively far, Flash's standing 2 only works at point blank range.



You aren't factoring in things like Bane waking up with a normal into a special. The normal will whiff through speed dodge but your opponent's normals still cancel when hitting speed dodge. So you speed dodge wake up d1 and it instantly cancels into double punch. You MB speed dodge and he armors right through it and beats you on wake up.

If I'm wrong awesome I have no problem admitting it but I play the best Bane offline every week. We've gone through all both of your suggestions in training mode several times. Flash has options for sure but I think both of you drastically underrate Bane's footsies. If any other Flash players are coming to UFGT I'd love to see a first to 10 with you vs @GGA Max. I'm not saying this to call you out, I'd legit love to see a good strategy for fighting Bane but nothing I'm seeing here convinces me yet.

If GGA comes to Toryuken I'd be happy to do a FTwhatever with Max

 

[Jim]

If GGA comes to Toryuken I'd be happy to do a FTwhatever with Max

There is talk but unfortunately I don't think Max is one that is considering it. I'll try to push him tomorrow though.

 

[n-megabytes]

I agree with most of this MU chart Zyphox except for Zatana and HG... As for Zod, I simply don't know anything about this character and pig told me it was 6-4 so i'm just gonna go with that until I get a chance to vs a good Zod but that most likely won't be until MLG...

I think that HG flash is either even or in HG's favor... as @AK Harold said that matchup might change but I think it needs a lot of practice to get it right... FU can lead to big damage but it does whiff and flash gets punished a lot of the times... jump back 3 on wake up mace charge cancelled to 11 trait can lead to like 51% damage which is good but then again this character is just too unpredictable and can't be conditioned to respect flash's game... again I hope i'm wrong because i hate playing against hawkgirl as flash...

As for Zatana, I have played a LOT of sets against @Pan1cMode and at first, we thought it was a 6-4 but now we believe it's a 5-5... even @deg222 and mr mileena agreed in a stream chat. It's true that her projectiles hit mid and can't be punished with LC but after every projectile, we get to use the godlike dash that we have to get closer. MB hats have to be respected though because it is plus a million and usually zatana players follow up with trance after that to catch people trying to move. Blocked trance however gets punished by LC for a full combo punish. In the corner she can't really wake up... jump back 2 beats teleport and MB teleport won't get punished however after blocked jump back 2, she will need to respect the 50/50 again.

Now as for the trait, Zatana players like to throw out a MB fireball and hide behind it... That move does take a lot of time to start up so LC can beat her out of it. If she successfully throws out the fireball, flash can either go under it with RMS 3 or what i like to do is just walk up and block the fire ball... Trait in this match can be used however not for too long... Once you are close, they will try to do the cage to punish LC or jump ins but if you bait that out, you can just LC and hit her out of it... You can also shake through most of her projectiles to avoid chip damage...

And ofcourse, flash's normals are way better than zatana's normals...

Other than that, agree with the matchup numbers 100%

 

[HoneyBee]

There is talk but unfortunately I don't think Max is one that is considering it. I'll try to push him tomorrow though.

Alright sounds good. I know most people don't know about my bro, Biohazard, but he mains Bane and Harley and I feel like his Bane is right up there with Max and I always dominate him in the MU so it would be interesting to see how it would go down between me and Max.