General/Other - Smoke XL Robo Smoke Discussion Thread

[jokey77]

21 into d3 trades w 6 frame d1s at worse. If I'm going for a frame trap vs a masher I use 21 into d3 ex smoke bomb and follow up from there.

... are you sure that this works? it sounds great, but I had the Impression that a) people get pushed out of range by most +2-strings and b) d3 comes out way too slow, because it is slow by itself and it takes some frames to even get into ducking state.

 

[boba_buster]

... are you sure that this works? it sounds great, but I had the Impression that a) people get pushed out of range by most +2-strings and b) d3 comes out way too slow, because it is slow by itself and it takes some frames to even get into ducking state.

I think d1 is a lot better to use after a blocked 21 , d2 might be good if it reaches far enough to catch their poke huh? Haven't messed with it much

 

[EMPEROR PRYCE]

... are you sure that this works? it sounds great, but I had the Impression that a) people get pushed out of range by most +2-strings and b) d3 comes out way too slow, because it is slow by itself and it takes some frames to even get into ducking state.

Closest range 21 generally after a jump in. Yes, I've tested it

 

[boba_buster]

Speaking of invisibility , air throw = safe invis against non teleported huh?

 

[shura30]

here's my recap of this weekend
basically, people are reading these threads or labbing the shit out of triborg or mashing hoping they catch a gap
either way the players I've faced were not dumb and I coulnd't go as freely on them

b1 SB is killer, this needs to be fixed asap, I've had situations where f13 SB caught the opponent on impossible distances, b1 SB while often seems in range it will still allow them to block
the obvious workaround is going for b1 exSB, in case they expect and block the B1 there's the chance to continue the pressure or to get guaranteed combo into vortex
but this makes some matchup too meter dependant, against cage for example one would/should save meter for breakers

the vortex: people insn't free at least not the randoms I've played
everyone tries to react from the start whether it's an armored ex or just a poke, they don't seem to be scared of the long phase animation
variety is key so their reads and timings can be thrown off, even a poke after spear, ji2 into b1/b3 can make wonders
to add more confusion I've had a great time with d3 into phase or ji2 into f21
expecting to just 3phase or 21 forever isn't going to work in the long distance

gaps and sb recovery frames:
in a few number of matches I got armored or jumped out b3/b1 before the SB could've come out
this is my worst fear for the upcoming matches, while it's possible to trick the opponent with exspear (using meter for such bait) the tradeoff is hugely against smoke, the opponent should not be allowed to jump out into full combo out of something that is -4 and no other options beside backdash (which will get caught from advancing moves, works only against pokes) or exphase which requires meter and a good read

after a breaker I've tried b21 into exsb, exspear or just normal spear once the opponent knew that sb can be jumped out
works wonders up until they get b21 finishes as an high, I've been crouched under and ate a full combo a few times

+1 or +2 in some of the hits of the 111 string would be nice, that would help setup the 50/50 but I believe I'm asking too much.
a reduction in - frames would still be nice, just to make the opponent respect more of that string


a couple of times while waking up in the corner with exphase against a jumping opponent the teleport went in the wrong direction allowing them full combo
as far as I remember there were not trying a specific setup, just a knockdown followed by a jumpin
I don't often wakeup with him so this may need further testing

 

[Error404]

I'm in there

 

[Mikemetroid]

The trick is to do it while the opponent is getting up a.k.a meaty . That causes b1 to connect later and thus give enough advantage for sb to combo.

B1 Smoke Bomb works in the corner non-meaty as well.

 

[just_2swift]

here's my recap of this weekend
basically, people are reading these threads or labbing the shit out of triborg or mashing hoping they catch a gap
either way the players I've faced were not dumb and I coulnd't go as freely on them

b1 SB is killer, this needs to be fixed asap, I've had situations where f13 SB caught the opponent on impossible distances, b1 SB while often seems in range it will still allow them to block
the obvious workaround is going for b1 exSB, in case they expect and block the B1 there's the chance to continue the pressure or to get guaranteed combo into vortex
but this makes some matchup too meter dependant, against cage for example one would/should save meter for breakers

the vortex: people insn't free at least not the randoms I've played
everyone tries to react from the start whether it's an armored ex or just a poke, they don't seem to be scared of the long phase animation
variety is key so their reads and timings can be thrown off, even a poke after spear, ji2 into b1/b3 can make wonders
to add more confusion I've had a great time with d3 into phase or ji2 into f21
expecting to just 3phase or 21 forever isn't going to work in the long distance

gaps and sb recovery frames:
in a few number of matches I got armored or jumped out b3/b1 before the SB could've come out
this is my worst fear for the upcoming matches, while it's possible to trick the opponent with exspear (using meter for such bait) the tradeoff is hugely against smoke, the opponent should not be allowed to jump out into full combo out of something that is -4 and no other options beside backdash (which will get caught from advancing moves, works only against pokes) or exphase which requires meter and a good read

after a breaker I've tried b21 into exsb, exspear or just normal spear once the opponent knew that sb can be jumped out
works wonders up until they get b21 finishes as an high, I've been crouched under and ate a full combo a few times

+1 or +2 in some of the hits of the 111 string would be nice, that would help setup the 50/50 but I believe I'm asking too much.
a reduction in - frames would still be nice, just to make the opponent respect more of that string


a couple of times while waking up in the corner with exphase against a jumping opponent the teleport went in the wrong direction allowing them full combo
as far as I remember there were not trying a specific setup, just a knockdown followed by a jumpin
I don't often wakeup with him so this may need further testing

I've been trying to wake up ex phase out the corner but get ex invisibility instead sometimes. Have you guys experience this?

 

[Scott The Scot]

I've been trying to wake up ex phase out the corner but get ex invisibility instead sometimes. Have you guys experience this?

Masher

 

[just_2swift]

Masher

Lol no . But seriously though he sometimes wake up ex invisibility

 

[Harlequin969]

Lol no . But seriously though he sometimes wake up ex invisibility

I have that problem when I try to do phase. Its worse when it's a block string so I get regular invisibility which is even worse

 

[Harlequin969]

For pressure I find myself doing 111, d1, or f21 delay 3/4, or d1 to check my opponent. Then I'll go for something like 111 into 1112. You'd be surprised at how many f21s will catch an opponent in this situation

 

[just_2swift]

It has cost me some close matches.

 

[REYTHEGREAT]

I've been trying to wake up ex phase out the corner but get ex invisibility instead sometimes. Have you guys experience this?

most of the time when i wake up phase, i get hit by faster characters. Either my timing is wrong or what, but it sucks cause then he doesnt really have any wakeup options. I turn invisible when i am doing a block string instead of phase and i know for a fact that i pressed the phase notations.

 

[just_2swift]

most of the time when i wake up phase, i get hit by faster characters. Either my timing is wrong or what, but it sucks cause then he doesnt really have any wakeup options. I turn invisible when i am doing a block string instead of phase and i know for a fact that i pressed the phase notations.

THIS.

 

[just_2swift]

I'll make a video to prove it with inputs. He even does it when you are not even doing it on block or on wake up.

 

[Red Hood MKX]

I think his damage comes from the invisible vortex.

Generally one repetition of the vortex (eg jip, b3, bomb, 4, b21-spear, 21) takes pretty much as long as the invisibility lasts. Thus it might be a good idea to start the pressure with a "filler string" like jip, b3-phase or b3d4 or 111 or even b1-phase before going for the actual jip/vortex. Then you might reappear in time for the next invisibility.

How much damage are you getting from invisible vortex. Can you list some of your combos into ex invisibility please would like to implement more of that stuff into my gameplsn

 

[Poser Paul]

THIS.

I usually do the input in a half circle animation instead of the down back/forward input. ie fdb/bdf

 

[jokey77]

Closest range 21 generally after a jump in. Yes, I've tested it

It most have to do with the range then. Seems like Triborgs active frames came out pretty early while it takes another few frames for his arm(d1)/leg(d3) to extend.

Another thing: I think that b1-smokebomb is rangedepandant. Maxbe we should look into the pushback of certain strings and find out if any guarantees the b3/b1 mixup without meter. We should even have enough time to take a few steps backwards after every spear.

@Red Hood MKX : I'll look into this tomorrow or so. But generally EVERY spear combo allows invisibility. The timing is a bit strict, but still... There are plenty of shenanigans, like going for an ordinary b3~smokebomb, then on block do a backdash and spam b21. Most of my damage comes from invisibility by now...

 

[boba_buster]

It most have to do with the range then. Seems like Triborgs active frames came out pretty early while it takes another few frames for his arm(d1)/leg(d3) to extend.

Another thing: I think that b1-smokebomb is rangedepandant. Maxbe we should look into the pushback of certain strings and find out if any guarantees the b3/b1 mixup without meter. We should even have enough time to take a few steps backwards after every spear.

@Red Hood MKX : I'll look into this tomorrow or so. But generally EVERY spear combo allows invisibility. The timing is a bit strict, but still... There are plenty of shenanigans, like going for an ordinary b3~smokebomb, then on block do a backdash and spam b21. Most of my damage comes from invisibility by now...

I like going for the 1112 cuz there's so many things you can do , a lot of the time they let go of block by the third 1 and u can cancel into smoke bomb , or if u see their blocking the string low cancel into oh tele. Obliviously the best thing is to start the vortex back up meterless my but the mind games really screw them up

 

[jokey77]

I like going for the 1112 cuz there's so many things you can do , a lot of the time they let go of block by the third 1 and u can cancel into smoke bomb , or if u see their blocking the string low cancel into oh tele. Obliviously the best thing is to start the vortex back up meterless my but the mind games really screw them up

I don't know about 1112. Everything you say makes sense. It is just that low pokes are among the most common reactions onceSmoke turned invisible. These might lowprofile the 1 and turn you visible right again, unless the staggerstate doesn't guarantee the 1 hitting. Does it? Anyone tested this?

Generally this is an interesting question. What are the most common reactions after " *~spear, ex invisibility, 21~fade " ?

I'd say in this order:
- pokes
- armored specials
- teleport specials
- njp
- throw

That's why one of the best options might be cross-up JIK. Or lowpoke~fade away, then b21. Or even walk backwards and go for b21. Options like these counter pretty much everything the opponent usually will do.

 

[boba_buster]

I'm talking about jailing with 111 after the vortex reset , they expect the b3/b1xxsmoke bomb etc. so their conditioned to block two hits and the 111 usually opens them up for a smokecloud and if not you can visually check if their blocking low and go for the oh tele or if their blocking high jus finish the string 1112 and be + 2 , really confuses them when they block the first hit and they think they blocked the vortex mix up correctly. So they don't have a chance to poke you out until after the full 1112 string and then your +2 so you will most likely win the poke trade , or just back dash and start invisible b21 games

 

[boba_buster]

It's not worth the meter to just use the invis for the vortex but to induce panic and fustrate the opponent trying to make them press buttons , the 1112 string also works good after a blocked b1x ex smoke bomb because it jails and still creates good pressure

 

[jokey77]

I'm talking about jailing with 111 after the vortex reset

I got that. Can they mash d1 to prevent you from doing 1112? Or are they still in a staggering state, so that the high-hitting can't be low profiled, but MUST be blocked?

 

[boba_buster]

I imagine it jails even after the 3xphase with all that advantage but might be possible , but who's gonna risk neutral ducking when their in a vortex situation?