Why Liu Kang Is Broken: A Breakdown

[Chernyy Volk]

People keep calling Kang broken, forgetting that he literally had a block infinite in vanilla MKX. THAT is an example of a broken character.

Nobody cares about MKX and this isn't about MKX. Stop using this stupid talking point.

 

[Anarchist_Gib]

Nobody cares about MKX and this isn't about MKX. Stop using this stupid talking point.

Don't be such a schmuck. The point wasn't about MKX, it was to point out a standard by which something is "broken". An infinite is an example of broken. By comparison to that as well as examples of other actually broken shit across fgc history, what we face with Liu Kang is definitely not in the same category.

 

[NYCj360]

Just out of curiosity, which characters get shit stomped by Liu kang? Serious question.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

Don't be such a schmuck. The point wasn't about MKX, it was to point out a standard by which something is "broken". An infinite is an example of broken. By comparison to that as well as examples of other actually broken shit across fgc history, what we face with Liu Kang is definitely not in the same category.

I provided a definition of broken in the video though so it was understood where I came from. Your point is just straw manning IMO.

 

[lordlosh]

Don't be such a schmuck. The point wasn't about MKX, it was to point out a standard by which something is "broken". An infinite is an example of broken. By comparison to that as well as examples of other actually broken shit across fgc history, what we face with Liu Kang is definitely not in the same category.

Sorry but your point has no sense. Just because Liu in MKXL was even more broken, doesnt say he aint broken here as well.
Chernyy Volk points in the video is very well taken. I would even said he misses some of Liu stupidity, like his wakeup 1,2 and that litteraly remove every pressure you try to put to Kang, yet Kang Parry totally remove your wakeups from the game.
The way the game is made with fast replenish meters, its all favor big time Kang.

Chernyy Volk, what you think about the other Kang Variation Wu Shi Legend ? More and more people use this variation and its pretty sick as well.

 

[Anarchist_Gib]

I provided a definition of broken in the video though so it was understood where I came from. Your point is just straw manning IMO.

Providing your definition doesn't mean I have to agree with your version of the term, or trust its consistency. You called Jade broken on stream, and she certainly doesn't fit your given definition.

"Such a degree of outplay because the risk-reward is so scewed in his favor that its basically impossible to beat this character at an even skill level"

 

[Anarchist_Gib]

Sorry but your point has no sense. Just because Liu in MKXL was even more broken, doesnt say he aint broken here as well.
Chernyy Volk points in the video is very well taken. I would even said he misses some of Liu stupidity, like his wakeup 1,2 and that litteraly remove every pressure you try to put to Kang, yet Kang Parry totally remove your wakeups from the game.
The way the game is made with fast replenish meters, its all favor big time Kang.

That's a pretty wide net by which to classify things as broken. Favoring big time isn't the same as a touch of death infinite. Not even in the same ballpark. That is why I have difficulty accepting the term in this context. Perhaps its hyperbole to some extent.

If his tools were all the same, but his KB's damage were heavily reduced would he be in a more acceptable spot for you?

 

[lordlosh]

Anarchist_Gib i understand that everyone have their opinion and view, just like i have. Just because i think he is broken, doesnt mean i want to force my opinion.

As far as Kang goes i already said many times, that this characters need plenty of touch, not just 1 or 2.

First one is that pressure character doesnt need to have low zoning tool, forget about amplification of that and to send low and high at the same time. Zero sense in that.
What is the sense Jacqui to have zero zoning, yet Kang have both zoning and best pressure ing? What is the sense that JC has only High projectile and his amplify to give just 1 extra projectile, yet Kang get total 3 on his High Fireball ?

His low Fireball needs to go completely.
His 2 throw KB needs to go completely. I long ago said that throw KBs is a bad idea as a whole. I would even remove all KBs throw from the game. On this throw meta is too OP.

His bicycle kick and F4 KBs are perfectly okay.

His F4 move needs to be 12/13 frame.
Give him new string, so he have more option.
His 1,2 needs to be +1 on block.
His Flying Dragon Kick needs some sort of balance. Its needs to be more - on block and recovery.
Shaolin Stance move Monk Fury(2) needs to be removed and get better move.
His FB needs adjusment as well, and FB needs adjusment as a whole.

 

[DoDaMuSiC]

Number 1 in the game =/= broken

Mk9 kabal, mmh, batgirl, alien, tanya, +27 orbiting hat kung lao, launch deadshot.. those characters were broken.

Liu is clearly number 1, and way ahead of every other character in this game, all his toolset screams good, but he definitely isn’t broken smh.

 

[Anarchist_Gib]

Anarchist_Gib i understand that everyone have their opinion and view, just like i have. Just because i think he is broken, doesnt mean i want to force my opinion.

First one is that pressure character doesnt need to have low zoning tool, forget about amplification of that and to send low and high at the same time. Zero sense in that.

What is the sense Jacqui to have zero zoning, yet Kang have both zoning and best pressureing? What is the sense that JC has only High projectile and his amplify to give just 1 extra projectile, yet Kang get total 3 on his High Fireball ?

His 2 throw KB needs to go completely. I long ago said that throw KBs is a bad idea as a whole. I would even remove all KBs throw from the game. On this throw meta is too OP.

His F4 move needs to be 12/13 frame.
His 1,2 needs to be +1 on block.

His Flying Dragon Kick needs some sort of balance. Its needs to be more - on block and recovery.

Shaolin Stance move Monk Fury(2) needs to be removed and get better move.

His FB needs adjusment as well, and FB needs adjusment as a whole.

Fair enough.

When used as an option with his f4 pressure, low fireball is punishable, and amplify doesn't guarantee a follow-up f4 or 1,2. Its application as a zoning tool its whatever, it gives you more time to either move up or use a special compared to his standing fireball.

Do you not consider Next-Gen with Jacqui capable of zoning at all? On block JC gets plus frames off his amplify , Liu is left -4. Not saying they are in the same league overall tier-wise, just addressing the specific point of p[projectiles. If only the last two fireballs hit its 7.7% for meter and it leaves you outside of his pressure tools unless you're in the corner.

NOOOOO lol as a Shao Kahn main that reversal punish throw KB is greatly appreciated! But I definitely agree it should be tied to only one throw if anything.

If they slow f4 by that degree, then I'd be fine with the +3 1,2.

I agree on dragon kick. Let it leave them with no pushback and negative af.

Better move in place of the stance? What's the reasoning here?

FB are my least favorite part of MK11. I want them either completely armorless or cost some(or a lot!) meter to use. Or both!

 

[Hellbringer]

Just because i think he is broken, doesnt mean i want to force my opinion.

Then why are u posting big walls of text in every thread crying about liu being broke? lol
Never seen anyone on tym being so dedicated to get a character nerfed then you.
You are not even going to tournaments but you give a list of nerfs to suit your agenda. Just leave that to ppl who know what they are talking about cause saying things like nerf his dragonkick to be more negative on block is just a huge facepalm and just makes u look silly.

 

[lordlosh]

If you doesnt like my opinion, why are you following me in every possible thread then ?
You obviously have something against me, from the moment i start s* on Kang for obvious reason.
The guy asked me what i think should be done about Liu and i give my opinion.
Plenty of people in this and the other thread that complain ever more than me.
Still i write in a Kang thread and my post are about the title description , unlike your post, who are mostly negative comments about user in TYM. And in a lot of times you even use insult by one way or another.

And yeah a lot of people have problem with Flying Dragon Kick and want it have less pushback and more negative. And not only on his Flying Dragon Kick, but his other move as well, like his FB for example, because its almost impossible to be punished.
And again im not kid, who doesnt have job and all the time in the world to go to tournaments or even take the game that much seriously.
And just because someone decide to go to tournaments, that doesnt mean he knows the game well and what certain character needs or dont need.

Anarchist_Gib, his both fireball are so strong, because almost all of his move have huge pushback. I posted a video with this, and the guy explain it very well there. He is always in the perfect spot to drain your life bar.
For example he FB you, and you are left on little hp, his FB will throw you "10" meters away and you have no choice but to take the chip damage from his low fireball, because if you decide to jump you dont know if he will go for amplify or not.

And what so strong with Kang zoning is his Flyind Dragon Kick, who is a counter to a lot of zoning tools.

 

[Hellbringer]

If you doesnt like my opinion, why are you following me in every possible thread then ?
You obviously have something against me, from the moment i start s* on Kang for obvious reason.
The guy asked me what i think should be done about Liu and i give my opinion.
Plenty of people in this and the other thread that complain ever more than me.
Still i write in a Kang thread and my post are about the title description , unlike your post, who are mostly negative comments about user in TYM. And in a lot of times you even use insult by one way or another.

And yeah a lot of people have problem with Flying Dragon Kick and want it have less pushback and more negative. And not only on his Flying Dragon Kick, but his other move as well, like his FB for example, because its almost impossible to be punished.
And again im not kid, who doesnt have job and all the time in the world to go to tournaments or even take the game that much seriously.
And just because someone decide to go to tournaments, that doesnt mean he knows the game well and what certain character needs or dont need.

Anarchist_Gib, his both fireball are so strong, because almost all of his move have huge pushback. I posted a video with this, and the guy explain it very well there. He is always in the perfect spot to drain your life bar.
For example he FB you, and you are left on little hp, his FB will throw you "10" meters away and you have no choice but to take the chip damage from his low fireball, because if you decide to jump you dont know if he will go for amplify or not.

And what so strong with Kang zoning is his Flyind Dragon Kick, who is a counter to a lot of zoning tools.

I just dont agree with your opinions, therefor i can't reply to your comments?
Just because you have problems with punishing a certain move like dragon kick or FB wich both are -20, doesn't mean it should be nerfed.
Saying things like "i want that character nerfed to the ground" is just a shit mentality.

 

[lordlosh]

Paper frame data mean sh****. A lot of people complain about this moves as well. A lot of top players complain about these moves as well.
Its about the pushback. Kang FB has ridiculous pushback on block. The only way to punish this move is by some ranged special move, and that means you wont get much damage from that.
Oh dear i forget you are a Kang player ....

 

[Plays2_MX]

Paper frame data mean sh****. A lot of people complain about this moves as well. A lot of top players complain about these moves as well.
Its about the pushback. Kang FB has ridiculous pushback on block. The only way to punish this move is by some ranged special move, and that means you wont get much damage from that.
Oh dear i forget you are a Kang player ....

I also hate Kang, but please. With Noob I can full combo punish that FB with f221...

 

[Hellbringer]

Paper frame data mean sh****. A lot of people complain about this moves as well. A lot of top players complain about these moves as well.
Its about the pushback. Kang FB has ridiculous pushback on block. The only way to punish this move is by some ranged special move, and that means you wont get much damage from that.
Oh dear i forget you are a Kang player ....

Are we going with the twitter comments again? Whos complaining about FB or flying dragonkick not able to punish?
I mean, didn't you make a video showing how you where unable to punish kangs amp low fireball? And somebody else showed you how to actually doing?
Want me to make a video too and show you how to punish FB or flying draginkick with sub zero cause thats your main right?
But yeah keep on calling everyone who doesnt agree with your BS a kang player. Keep being a true armchair critic.

 

[lordlosh]

Again you cant punish Kang F4mix with Fireball, with Sub Zero 1,2. My point was about that. Simply because of the blockstun and that you are going to whiff the first shot.
And every Kang punishable move has very little window to be punished. Whether its because of the s*** blockstun or because of other stuffs.
You cant punish his Shaolin Stance and low kick as well, because you going to low-profiling 90% of the time.

You are trying to downplay me in the other thread, by you gone in hidding when i post video of myself showing what you said i couldnt.

His FB has ridiculous pushback on block, and a lot of people complain about that, not only me.
You cant punish that move, with the exception of special move, shoulder charge in DOW case, and you have to expect that move to punish it, cause the window for punish is small. Its one thing on Lab, and totally other thing in a real game. Wont even talk about Online, where its even harder.

So "master" go on and record me a video and show me how exactly you going to punish Liu Kang FB with strings. Go on we are all waiting.

 

[STB BroZki]

He wasn't. You just sucked.

Yeah, I’m gonna have to agree with Cherry, and I dislike this guy, but if you think prepatched Scorpion was broken, then you were just garbage.

 

[Hellbringer]

So "master" go on and record me a video and show me how exactly you going to punish Liu Kang FB with strings. Go on we are all waiting.

Thats 2 different strings you can use. Took me 2 min to figure out

 

[Arqwart]

Yeah, I’m gonna have to agree with Cherry, and I dislike this guy, but if you think prepatched Scorpion was broken, then you were just garbage.

Pretty sure a vast majority of people didn't think pre-patch Scorpion was broken, only that it was cheesy garbage to have a neutral-ignoring tool that was so universal in usage.

As for the Liu topic, the block pushback on his FB is nothing out of the ordinary and is entirely punishable by basically everyone. Literally every character in the game can punish it by dashing in and canceling the dash with a 9f or faster attack with a little reach (usually a standing 2) or by using a long-reaching normal (such as D'Vorah F1 or Noob's F2). Liu is NOT safe on block throwing out his FB willy nilly.

 

[DoDaMuSiC]

Man pretty much the whole cast can punish fb and flying kick.....

 

[lordlosh]

Thats 2 different strings you can use. Took me 2 min to figure out

That is possible in a fixed environment(LAB) when you know what is coming to you, and when you go and you are ready with the dash, and still the windows for punish is very slim. You have to do it fast.

Why not record me 60 sec. video with consecutive try, instead of 10 sec video in a fixed environment(LAB) and paste it, to see how you can do it constantly.
This is my request, 60 sec. of video when he start in a neutral position, dont move, just straight FB and see how many successful punish you will do with B3,2. I want to see that.


Still in a real game situation, when you dont know the FB will come in that exact moment and you are ready to go, you wont punish that move in most of the time.

I can record how i catch on punish his Shaolin Stance Low Kick, as F4 mixup, and put a video, and said how its 100%
punishable, but the reality is you going to low-profiling 90% of the time.

ttt - Streamable

Check out this video on Streamable using your phone, tablet or desktop.

streamable.com

 

[Hellbringer]

That is possible in a fixed environment(LAB) when you know what is coming to you, and when you go and you are ready with the dash, and still the windows for punish is very slim. You have to do it fast.

Why not record me 60 sec. video with consecutive try, instead of 10 sec video in a fixed environment(LAB) and paste it, to see how you can do it constantly.
This is my request, 60 sec. of video when he start in a neutral position, dont move, just straight FB and see how many successful punish you will do with B3,2. I want to see that.


Still in a real game situation, when you dont know the FB will come in that exact moment and you are ready to go, you wont punish that move in most of the time.

I can record how i catch on punish his Shaolin Stance Low Kick, as F4 mixup, and put a video, and said how its 100%
punishable, but the reality is you going to low-profiling 90% of the time.

ttt - Streamable

Check out this video on Streamable using your phone, tablet or desktop.

streamable.com

Nah dude i just called you out on your BS again, about not being able to punish it. Why would i waste my time again when your obviously incapable to admit you where wrong.
Atleast you learned something seeing that video you posted lol.

 

[Vslayer]

Nobody cares about MKX and this isn't about MKX. Stop using this stupid talking point.

Sure let’s not use examples to compare the same type of game made by the same company.

 

[lordlosh]

Nah dude i just called you out on your BS again, about not being able to punish it. Why would i waste my time again when your obviously incapable to admit you where wrong.
Atleast you learned something seeing that video you posted lol.

Nqh because its inconsistent and you cant and you know it.