Why is Kabal's FB better than everyone eles's?

[John Grizzly]

Maybe they should cost meter to use? Don't have all your meter? Can't reuse your FB

I actually considered this as well. What if they used NO meter, but required you to have full meter? That way, they won't just be thrown out willy-nilly so much.

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

I actually considered this as well. What if they used NO meter, but required you to have full meter? That way, they won't just be thrown out willy-nilly so much.

I like it. Make it so captain!

 

[STB BroZki]

So he was the strongest character in the beta...a build that is probably no where near the final one, but you’re all already calling Kabal number 1? Fuck me guys, that’s sad.

 

[GrimJack]

The only change needed is to make it punishable for full combo so you can bait it.

 

[ogrimtitan]

So he was the strongest character in the beta...a build that is probably no where near the final one, but you’re all already calling Kabal number 1? Fuck me guys, that’s sad.

He was BY FAR the strongest character in the beta in EVERY AREA of combat. He's also been OP in every major edition of the game where he's been on the roster. And even when balance patches became a thing he stayed OP to borderline legendary, game-ruining degrees that have remained part of MK lore for years. So it's very reasonable to take what we see in the beta as a BAD sign, one worthy of discussion and criticism NOW, and something we'd like to MAKE SURE doesn't show up in the final build (which comes out in 3 weeks, btw), given that NRS has given us every reason to believe they would put a Kabal like this in a live game.

 

[Slymind]

His re-stand is what bothers me the most, it deals a significant amount of damage on top of being a potential reset.

 

[PLAYING TO WIN]

that projectile is only good bc of his other tools that compliment it. please lets not start complaining about zoning before we know how tournament standards work. if its 3 set variations he will not have that with his other crazy tools and will be less of an issue. who knows what the final build recovery will be.

further, i started perfect blocking predictable ones and punishing with skarlet b 3 or jade shadow kick. when they delayed it or just did a jump kick for plus frames bc a bigger mind game

 

[Scoot Magee]

Flawless block u2 seems like a solid counter to his air blades. I started getting more flawless block stuff out on the last day of the beta. I would imagine in offline play that this will be much easier to do minus the extra 3 or 4 frames of input delay.

I'm pretty sure flawless block was highly under used during the beta.

 

[DixieFlatline78]

It's easy to say that we should reserve judgment for release, but there are some major flaws with that argument:

1. Knowing it's the beta doesn't eliminate the value of critical thought and discussion,
2. Discussing it now might conceivably inspire pre-release changes that would keep Kabal from dominating the first generation of the game (including its first EVO and most important advertisement opportunity), and
3. It's completely rational to be suspicious of Kabal being OP given his history in the series.

Let's just think about what Kabal has already in the game, and will have at release unless they literally eliminate moves from his toolkit:
+Decent combos and respectable damage meterless, with one bar, and with two bars
+Decent zoning, with high, low, and aerial projectiles
+Full-screen pressure and projectile combo confirms
+Full combos that don't launch and thus can't be escaped
+Reach and footsies
+Strings that are difficult to punish and/or can be made safe
+Minimal gaps in his strings for flawless block
+Restand + pressure
+Krushing blows that are mostly easy to use and that have high value on use
+A full-screen fatal blow that changes the entire pace of the match no matter what else is happening

What other characters would you expect to have ALL of that?
What could NRS realistically do between now and release that would make THAT toolkit balanced with a diverse roster of characters, all the rest of whom so far seem to have significant weaknesses built into their design?
Is it really worth "reserving judgment" now at the risk of the world seeing a Top 8 EVO full of Kabal mirrors AGAIN?

There was a video that was showing off some optimized combos for Kabal and he was doing 40%+ off his basic starters. The man is OP. He feels like Season 3 Akuma.

Precisely. I've yet to see anyone (any Kabal main) actually present an argument for why Kabal is fine or why he shouldn't be nerfed from the beta build that isn't "wait to see the rest of the roster" which is, as you covered, bunk.

Legitimately, Kabal players: tell me what weakness your character has. What tool does he lack, what does he do poorly? Like I've seen the argument made that his ground saws are negative on block and can be punished up close. Really? So your argument is that you can't frame trap me with projectiles from across the screen?

Nothing really. His up close pressure is all punishable if you block correctly. Tom Brady showed that you can Fuzzy Guard all his low special mixups so theres that. I think if we give it some time we can figure out the matchup, he'll be a lot more manageable.

For me, he was the only character who felt good during the beta and I highly doubt I'll keep playing him in the main game

 

[ogrimtitan]

Flawless block u2 seems like a solid counter to his air blades. I started getting more flawless block stuff out on the last day of the beta. I would imagine in offline play that this will be much easier to do minus the extra 3 or 4 frames of input delay.

I'm pretty sure flawless block was highly under used during the beta.

See but here's the problem with arguments like this one: saying "well people will get better at xxx" can literally apply to every other character in the cast as well, and they aren't as strong or versatile or well-equipped in general as he is. And anyone playing Kabal can also "learn to get better at xxx." It doesn't solve anything because tiers are RELATIVE, and as long as he is relatively much better than every other character (taking into account people getting better at the game), the same problem he created in his past appearances will be replayed in MK11. He needs a massive tone down in multiple areas, or else his move sets need to be split across variations in ways that are very focused and give him profound weaknesses.

 

[ogrimtitan]

And I'll add that this is fundamentally a conversation we NEED to have before release, as NRS has shown us that they're absolutely undependable on post-release balancing. If we're going to give them the benefit of the doubt on anything, I'd much rather them nerf-bomb Kabal into bottom tier and then we can trust them to buff him later.

 

[methademic]

It was a 5 character beta on an old prerelease build, can we save the bitching for next month, or take it back to reddit and gamefaqs at the very least.

 

[Bloodfang]

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the entire point of a BETA to give us a tease of gameplay to make us want to buy their product BUT ALSO so people can tell them "this thing is great" or "this thing sucks" BEFORE final build?

 

[Scoot Magee]

See but here's the problem with arguments like this one: saying "well people will get better at xxx" can literally apply to every other character in the cast as well, and they aren't as strong or versatile or well-equipped in general as he is. And anyone playing Kabal can also "learn to get better at xxx." It doesn't solve anything because tiers are RELATIVE, and as long as he is relatively much better than every other character (taking into account people getting better at the game), the same problem he created in his past appearances will be replayed in MK11. He needs a massive tone down in multiple areas, or else his move sets need to be split across variations in ways that are very focused and give him profound weaknesses.

I was just pointing a counter for his air blades for the most part. Not really trying to act like I know what's best in the 5 day beta.

 

[STB BroZki]

He was BY FAR the strongest character in the beta in EVERY AREA of combat. He's also been OP in every major edition of the game where he's been on the roster. And even when balance patches became a thing he stayed OP to borderline legendary, game-ruining degrees that have remained part of MK lore for years. So it's very reasonable to take what we see in the beta as a BAD sign, one worthy of discussion and criticism NOW, and something we'd like to MAKE SURE doesn't show up in the final build (which comes out in 3 weeks, btw), given that NRS has given us every reason to believe they would put a Kabal like this in a live game.

I’m going to disregard everything you just said because it’s a beta.

 

[KRYS9984]

Maybe they should cost meter to use? Don't have all your meter? Can't reuse your FB

I actually considered this as well. What if they used NO meter, but required you to have full meter? That way, they won't just be thrown out willy-nilly so much.

I actually addressed this in a thread yesterday (post #115 at the bottom):

https://www.testyourmight.com/threads/last-dance-overall-impression-of-mk11-beta.68734/page-5#post-2465113

I'll also provide the post in this spoiler:

Spoiler

I thought of this as well; fatal blow should require activation and cost both bars of offensive meter.

This added feature would please both groups that are divided on the subject:

- People who want it changed to one time use would appreciate it since if requires multiple resources and if missed or blocked, the opponent has no offensive meter for a period of time going forward.

- People who want fatal blows regenerating have their wish, however, now it is tied to another resource and should be used correctly / precisely.

Tying fatal blow to meter also reduces extended combos into a fatal blow ender (obviously scales but still a thing); if you have fatal blow activated and land a combo, you have to go for something small and let it rip. You can also save the fatal blow for a better moment and extending the combo at the cost of meter but if you choose to do so, you will have to wait for that expended bar to regenerate to use the fatal blow.

It also reduces the use of multiple amplified special attacks in neutral into fatal blow situations and opens up more neutral play depending on the meter. For example, if Kabal has fatal blow and not fully stocked on offensive meter, you can possibly zone him a little more freely and not worry about getting hit by his fatal blow like hundreds of people did during the Beta.

 

[MKF30]

Yes
yes even noob too people dont notice but noob FB tracks as well

It does look good, though we'll get a better understanding of his gameplay on thursday.

 

[Saltea Moonspell]

He's also been OP in every major edition of the game where he's been on the roster. And even when balance patches became a thing he stayed OP to borderline legendary, game-ruining degrees that have remained part of MK lore for years.

Dude, I dont know how deep you you sunk into MK9, but for Kabal to dominate, you'd had to have really magnificent execution - not that it bypass Kabal entirely, but its a fact, that only considering how big the scene was, only few made it to the top. By all means, Kabal was never a Black Adam, nor Superman.

Yes, he had IAGB, yes he had NDC, but that required really a higher level of execution, that vet few were able to sustain.

Please, please correct me, if I am wrong - there were so many, who tried, to dominate with Kabal, but only few ever really accomplish that.

So, the argument that "Kabal has been TOP tier in past" is a fucking joke. Please, for sake of the Mk11, that has been designed for manually retarded casual players, dont bring previous game into this.

 

[lionheart21]

Because he needs it to be via-BWAHAHAHA!! Man, couldn't do that with a straight face.

 

[TylorJockin]

It's easy to say that we should reserve judgment for release, but there are some major flaws with that argument:

1. Knowing it's the beta doesn't eliminate the value of critical thought and discussion,
2. Discussing it now might conceivably inspire pre-release changes that would keep Kabal from dominating the first generation of the game (including its first EVO and most important advertisement opportunity), and
3. It's completely rational to be suspicious of Kabal being OP given his history in the series.

Let's just think about what Kabal has already in the game, and will have at release unless they literally eliminate moves from his toolkit:
+Decent combos and respectable damage meterless, with one bar, and with two bars
+Decent zoning, with high, low, and aerial projectiles
+Full-screen pressure and projectile combo confirms
+Full combos that don't launch and thus can't be escaped
+Reach and footsies
+Strings that are difficult to punish and/or can be made safe
+Minimal gaps in his strings for flawless block
+Restand + pressure
+Krushing blows that are mostly easy to use and that have high value on use
+A full-screen fatal blow that changes the entire pace of the match no matter what else is happening

What other characters would you expect to have ALL of that?
What could NRS realistically do between now and release that would make THAT toolkit balanced with a diverse roster of characters, all the rest of whom so far seem to have significant weaknesses built into their design?
Is it really worth "reserving judgment" now at the risk of the world seeing a Top 8 EVO full of Kabal mirrors AGAIN?

This is my favorite post on TYM. You took my thoughts and conveyed them perfectly. THANK YOU!

 

[GLoRToR]

Dude, I dont know how deep you you sunk into MK9, but for Kabal to dominate, you'd had to have really magnificent execution - not that it bypass Kabal entirely, but its a fact, that only considering how big the scene was, only few made it to the top. By all means, Kabal was never a Black Adam, nor Superman.

Yes, he had IAGB, yes he had NDC, but that required really a higher level of execution, that vet few were able to sustain.

Please, please correct me, if I am wrong - there were so many, who tried, to dominate with Kabal, but only few ever really accomplish that.

So, the argument that "Kabal has been TOP tier in past" is a fucking joke. Please, for sake of the Mk11, that has been designed for manually (soap bar in my mouth) casual players, dont bring previous game into this.

You were always one of the most reasonable people on here.
Please do not turn into MK9 Kabal Apologist #2876354.

 

[Eddy Wang]

They haaaaaad to make Kabal odee again...

PPL still crying over Kabal, He is like the Devil Jin of MK games, whenever he is in the game, he is very very strong.

Outside of MK3D games.

 

[Juggs]

What’s wrong with Kabal having a good Fatal Blow? I don’t understand.

 

[B. Shazzy]

lul Noob has tracking low fatal blow. Erron has a projectile fatal blow

stop crying babies

 

[Saltea Moonspell]

You were always one of the most reasonable people on here.
Please do not turn into MK9 Kabal Apologist #2876354.

My brother from another Mother, I will take your words, deep into my heart.