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Question - Master of Storms Why does no one play MoS?

Tokiwartoothxdk

『T R I G G E R E D』
Has anybody got ANY MoS match footage in tournament/high level that I can watch?

Everyone talks about how rubbish it is, but I never get the chance to see it :(
The only time i recall a MoS being played at a "tournament level" was in ESL season 1, where nivek picked it against Foxy in the finals. I dont even remember what patch that was it was so long ago lol
 

Barrogh

Meta saltmine
Because, let's be honest, why would you expect people to play what is considered rubbish character? If someone could make it work at least semi-reliable, people would've stopped shitting on MoS by now.
 

buyacushun

Normalize grab immunity.
it *is* possible for a quick normal to blow up their armor if they get hit with a tic of the orb at the same time.
You sure this works. I tried doing it against Predator because of how long his armor last. I could see the damage tick but it didn't activate the armor. So predator would just blow up my f1.

MoS just doesn't mathematically work. No safe way to set up orbs. Except for like 2 or 3 strings on hit. Unless you're full screen and your opponent doesn't have a teleport or good projectile. I really don't see how anyone could reliably use it in tournament. Sure it might help against people trying to get in. But if they do get in, which they will, why not just go with EX teleport or TG offense?

And how did I miss a MoS thread?
 

Tokiwartoothxdk

『T R I G G E R E D』
You sure this works. I tried doing it against Predator because of how long his armor last. I could see the damage tick but it didn't activate the armor. So predator would just blow up my f1.

MoS just doesn't mathematically work. No safe way to set up orbs. Except for like 2 or 3 strings on hit. Unless you're full screen and your opponent doesn't have a teleport or good projectile. I really don't see how anyone could reliably use it in tournament. Sure it might help against people trying to get in. But if they do get in, which they will, why not just go with EX teleport or TG offense?

And how did I miss a MoS thread?
i recently just played against a sun god and beat his wake up ex command grab with the orbs and f1, so it is possible
 

Vaiist

Noob
You sure this works. I tried doing it against Predator because of how long his armor last. I could see the damage tick but it didn't activate the armor. So predator would just blow up my f1.

MoS just doesn't mathematically work. No safe way to set up orbs. Except for like 2 or 3 strings on hit. Unless you're full screen and your opponent doesn't have a teleport or good projectile. I really don't see how anyone could reliably use it in tournament. Sure it might help against people trying to get in. But if they do get in, which they will, why not just go with EX teleport or TG offense?

And how did I miss a MoS thread?
As for the orb blowing up armor - it does work, but it's quite random. If the orb tics while they're armoring through and you land attack that's not in the same frame, they'll eat it. However, due to the slow tic of the orbs it's a pretty low chance that it will work. I wouldn't have even thought of this, but it happened a couple times by accident. That's the only thing that leads me to bring up that it's a useful tool he could have if it was reliable (or even predictable).

As for your other points about MoS, I agree as well :)

I think I pretty much covered it in the other comments. He's great to throw your opponent off for a match or two, but ultimately he will get figured out.

He's very psychological. When he screws with your opponent's rhythm he can get away with some nasty tricks. In the end though, it's all bait. You either bait somebody into blocking or you bait them into getting trapped. Once they figure out how many ways around this they have it starts to slide back in their favor.

So yeah, he's fun. He's cool and stylish. In the end though, I think he's best to throw in for certain matchups or just to randomly fuck with somebody. He can't quite hold his own in tournament or set play.
 

buyacushun

Normalize grab immunity.
i recently just played against a sun god and beat his wake up ex command grab with the orbs and f1, so it is possible
As for the orb blowing up armor - it does work, but it's quite random. If the orb tics while they're armoring through and you land attack that's not in the same frame, they'll eat it. However, due to the slow tic of the orbs it's a pretty low chance that it will work. I wouldn't have even thought of this, but it happened a couple times by accident. That's the only thing that leads me to bring up that it's a useful tool he could have if it was reliable (or even predictable).

As for your other points about MoS, I agree as well :)

I think I pretty much covered it in the other comments. He's great to throw your opponent off for a match or two, but ultimately he will get figured out.

He's very psychological. When he screws with your opponent's rhythm he can get away with some nasty tricks. In the end though, it's all bait. You either bait somebody into blocking or you bait them into getting trapped. Once they figure out how many ways around this they have it starts to slide back in their favor.

So yeah, he's fun. He's cool and stylish. In the end though, I think he's best to throw in for certain matchups or just to randomly fuck with somebody. He can't quite hold his own in tournament or set play.
So it's hard to reliably do but it is possible? Sounds like an MoS thing lol.
 

Vaiist

Noob
He can armour brake Lao off a set up, which is not bad at all. So i assume he can break majority of people's armour.
You can use standing resets and/or EX full traps to apply incredible pressure. If he built meter better it would be especially scary, but (as with Displacer) when you have to use your meter for either setups OR damage it doesn't add up to as much as you would hope.
 

Vaiist

Noob
So it's hard to reliably do but it is possible? Sounds like an MoS thing lol.
Exactly. Normally I wouldn't even have brought it up, but since it can work in certain circumstances I figured I should mention it. It could be a really cool tool if you knew exactly how it would interact with your normals after a HKD or some other set up.
 

buyacushun

Normalize grab immunity.
Exactly. Normally I wouldn't even have brought it up, but since it can work in certain circumstances I figured I should mention it. It could be a really cool tool if you knew exactly how it would interact with your normals after a HKD or some other set up.
Yeah that's just MoS. All this incredible in theory type stuff only to realize it ain't ever gonna happen. :(

It's why I moved on to Displacer. I can still play the normal heavy spacing game I wanted but now I can actually use the variation specific tools. "Oh I'm in the corner? Nah EX teleport away." I've always said MoS Raiden just feels like I'm playing base Raiden who can place orbs that sometime do a lightning thing.
 

Vaiist

Noob
Yeah that's just MoS. All this incredible in theory type stuff only to realize it ain't ever gonna happen. :(

It's why I moved on to Displacer. I can still play the normal heavy spacing game I wanted but now I can actually use the variation specific tools. "Oh I'm in the corner? Nah EX teleport away." I've always said MoS Raiden just feels like I'm playing base Raiden who can place orbs that sometime do a lightning thing.
You might be my twin. I'm picturing some separated at birth scenario.

Nah, but seriously, I did the same thing. After the September patch came along I started experimenting with Displacer. After a bit you realize how much you gain from being able to control position and frame advantage. He slipped into becoming my main without me even realizing it.

We played that one time and we had some interesting fights. It's as if we both thought that we had to pick the opposite variation of the other lol. MoS and Displacer mirrors are weird. Anyways, you switched to (I think?) Cassie and Kotal. Good fights were had, but we should try Raiden sets again some time.

I can see why our man isn't considered top tier, but I think a lot of people don't realize what he can do when he goes off.
 

buyacushun

Normalize grab immunity.
You might be my twin. I'm picturing some separated at birth scenario.

Nah, but seriously, I did the same thing. After the September patch came along I started experimenting with Displacer. After a bit you realize how much you gain from being able to control position and frame advantage. He slipped into becoming my main without me even realizing it.

We played that one time and we had some interesting fights. It's as if we both thought that we had to pick the opposite variation of the other lol. MoS and Displacer mirrors are weird. Anyways, you switched to (I think?) Cassie and Kotal. Good fights were had, but we should try Raiden sets again some time.

I can see why our man isn't considered top tier, but I think a lot of people don't realize what he can do when he goes off.
If you'll be on later tonight I'll play you. I'm running a set with another friend but if you're still around after then sure we can go again. I don't know how long I'll play Raiden for. I'll definitely be sticking to Displacer though lol. For me when a character's neutral is sucky and there is nothing else really interesting then I gravitate to other characters. I recently picked up Goro and besides his speed issue I'm having fun! D1 6f, -6 on block. D3 6f, -4 on block. D4 9f, -6 on block. 16f mid that's -2 and covers that with punchwalk! So much fun when I can actually press buttons and play lol
 

Micahl Dickens

OkiDoki-NrdShmN
MoS is my main and has been since just before they patched in the tic damage, and as has been said, you can definitely take rounds. Though the combos are tight, you can get +50% in the corner with one bar if the opponent is taking tic damage. That's sort of useless though if you can't get yourself into that position. In the last couple of weeks, I've been winning a lot more due to certain things I've made sure to do (feel free to poke holes in my tech/theories):

I end most of my combos with forward trap because while it's less damage, it's much safer. With the amount of plus options Raiden has, getting off a second ball to activate trap is pretty easy.

Whenever I can f2, I do it; it pushes forward, it's +2, it's cancelable, it's continuable. If it's blocked, a down 3 is basically safe if timed correctly, and on hit, I usually follow up with another f2. Staggering f2, d3, f22+4 (also plus), different low frame attack, f2, etc is good for keeping up pressure, but also risky as there are several ways out of hits, and it's easy to get punished on a poorly timed d3. If you connect an f2, b34 will connect if timed correctly; with some conditioning to expect on overhead on stand, it's also been giving me some damage/corner pushes.
Another advantage of f2 is it eliminates the option of jumping forward to close in at anything bigger than half screen. For example, if the opponent jumps a lightning ball, you can usually connect f2, f22+4,f12b2, etc for an average of 30%. It took me some time to get on reflex, but I'm doing it much more consistently without drops. And again, ending combos with safe static trap rather than going for damage goes a long way.

Another almost cool technique I've been trying works for pressuring your opponent into making bad choices; basically, once you get a trap going (you can just ex trap), immediately throw a trap forward, run, throw forward trap. It's annoying to get the timing for, but you basically eliminate the option of moving forward. The opponent may try to low poke, but that's just asking to get NJPed (38% one meter for me), and even the opponent manages to block the NJP and the trap, you're in the position to start the plus frame game. Also throwing a trap right onto another trap can be sort of deceptive if done while full trap is going because it looks like inactive trap.

The last and maybe most effective thing I've been doing to overcome MoS's short comings is mastering my corner game. Connecting any hit in the corner is a huge advantage because 1: you /can/ get 30% on almost any hit and/but 2: as long as the connected attack can be canceled, you can throw trap, and if they don't tech roll, you can throw a second trap forcing them to block or accept the full corner punch over a couple of hits, which means another 30% (they can try to low profile, but again, if you read, it's a free NJP punish for 30-40%). Basically, once you get used to it, you can do whatever you want in the corner as far as combining attacks, and as long as you stagger when you throw trap, it'll be hard for them to guess when to try and escape.
Some of my corner stuff; f12b2, f12b2, f12b2EXdf2, f12b2df4; b2,f2, b2, f12b2, df2; 34, f2, f2, f12b2EXdb3, b111+3, trap;

A much less viable thing that has won me a match or two: throwing ball behind and then jump bf3 across the screen gives you the option of a full screen trap making jumping completely unsafe for the opponent.

Some stuff I think could make the variation more viable that hasn't been said:
If ex trap had hugely reduced frames (shades of Deceptive/Unbreakable/etc), you could use it to open up previously unavailable combos e.g 214EXdf4, 21, trap goes off, njp, f2, f12b2, bf3.
Being able to throw trap while in the air would also be pretty useful. For example, if you have a trap out and connect a jp, you could (in air) db4, NJP, uppercut, caught by trap, f2, f12b2, etc

Something I noticed but don't have answers to: electric fly has cancel frames like a normal attack/string; does anyone know why? It'd be cool if you could cancel electric fly with another special (even if just in this variation), though likely at the cost of greatly increased gravity to avoid brokenness.

Kind of ended up being a long post; thanks for readin if you got this farlol.
 
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Aramonde

Noob
As a side note, it seems kinda crazy to me that TG gets everything he does while the others only get one tool. TG gets stop ball and teleport strings. In my opinion stopping an EX lightning ball seems more like an MoS thing. If MoS had everything I mentioned plus the stop ball I think we'd really be cooking with gas.
Stop ball? Like a mine? *goes to check in the lab* HOLY SHIT THATS AWESOME! >:l THAT SHOULD BE A MoS ABILITY!

I think MoS is cool but like everyone said it not that good :(
 

xxFalcon Loverxx

Ignorant slaves, how quickly you forget.
I was just playing around online and got MoS and he seems genuinely pretty good but I hear so little discussion about him, why is this?
I feel like he might be one of the most under labbed variations around still, sure people have spent some time with him but it seems that no one has committed to really making him viable to some degree, MoS is just NEVER seen at least from my experience.

Inb4 "I actually play MoS"
Inb4 *Insert buff list for MoS*

Discuss what you think about the usage of MoS whether he maybe needs alot more digging or if he's already fairly good and viable to some small degree perhaps not for Majors but maybe to more casual play.

....or is he really just the new D tier.:DOGE

(Also can we discuss that throwing an orb forward grants first hit even though it's not technically a hit)
I thought you were talking about ermac (master of souls) lol.
 

I GOT HANDS

Official Infrared Scorp wid gapless Wi-Fi pressure
Because, let's be honest, why would you expect people to play what is considered rubbish character? If someone could make it work at least semi-reliable, people would've stopped shitting on MoS by now.
That's not how people evaluate characters. People were shitting on Hat Trick as being unplayably bad like they currently do for MoS, all the way up to the opening minutes of Scar vs Sonic. Then they switched to saying the character is perfectly viable. When in reality the truth is somewhere in between - he's not at all unplayable, but he needs fixes to a couple of core issues with his toolkit. People just take everything at face value however and lab/learn nothing for themselves. People who learned MoS say he is shit? More people who haven't learned him will also say MoS is shit just as loudly. Someone makes some waves with the same MoS by playing him really well, then people will start saying he's fine and needs no buffs. This site is a pretty big circlejerk at times.

P.S. not saying MoS isn't shit - I don't know because I haven't learned him so I won't speak on it. What I do know is how the talking heads on TYM operate and label things
 

EMPEROR PRYCE

WAR SEASON "THE WEAK EXPOSED!"
I think MoS plays a zoning/keep away game that just doesn't work in MKX. And it won't work unless his Traps had better start up, or reaped a greater reward on hit.

Maybe other cool things too, like if an opponent is inside or very close to an orb they lose the ability to jump, as well as run.

It's just funny how its titled "master of storms" but it seems to be the most limited.
 

buyacushun

Normalize grab immunity.
I like how MoS Raiden will forever have threads wondering why the variation isn't played.

Raiden is a character where others do the same thing he does bit better/easier. MoS is a raiden variation where the other two just make a better Raiden.