Question - A-List Who is still playing Cage?

[ismael4790]

Also on the subject of bad defense, while I understand Cage's defense is complete garbage, there is one character that competes with that garbageness and that's Leatherface. Yea I have Overhead and Low armor but both are HIGHLY unsafe on block and the overhead/mid options have terrible whiff recovery AND whiffing issues. My backdash is bottom 3 FREE. Only saving grace are my good pokes. Having bad defense in this game while super frustrating and difficult, is not the end all be all. Just my two cents. Hope you guys get buffs in a future patch while Leatherface rots in a corner with no help (RIP whiffing issues across the board, at least the setplay is good)

With Cage there is no guessing game on wakeup coming from his armor, not even block/no block guessing game. The opponent can decide to jump over or, much better to just poke, no mental process, and full punish him on the exkick recovery.

Punishable armor is much better than Cage options. Ninjutsu scorpion is considered to be a character with bad options on the ground, for example, and I take his options over Cage ones any time.

 

[CrazyFingers]

Also jumping answers literally every option except for wakeup D2.

 

[CrazyFingers]

Because for whatever reason a move where Leatherface swings over his head, doesn't hit things that are over his head

 

[The_Tile]

Imo considering all together, Quan has actually better or comparable defense.

I take a triple armor inconsistent over a non existent one, backdash is immensely better, same as antiairs that of course are related with defense.

And btw, poking against wakeup exshadowkick also allows to full punish Cage after, so...

Let's agree to disagree if you want with the fact of who has worse defense, idc, Cage has one of the worst set of defensive tools in the whole game, that's obvious, and annoying because his offense is not that good at all to justify it. Old A-List being free on the ground would have made some kind of sense due to great pressure. Now it doesn't. Quan at least is not trash at zoning.

You guys should stop using the label downplay when entering a Cage forum, we are in december. Patch happened, and in case you don't know, Cage got hit hard, he is mediocre at best. Fisticuffs not being the worst variation says a lot.

1. "I take a triple armor over a non-existent one"
Cage has safe high armor across all variations and an unsafe mid in SD if he doesn't have clone and safe if he does with ExSK.

2. Quans backdash is better but anti airs are comparatively good. Cage's NJP works in the same way as Quans while their S1's are just as good.

3. Cage's pokes are better than Quan's. Quans D1 is absolutely terrible and while his D3 is really good it's just not fast enough for getting out of good pressure.

4. Cage is not "trash at zoning". His FB's were ridiculous projectiles for a rush down character pre patch and they've not changed at all. Obviously he's not gonna zone anyone all game but he has a good check to throw out in force balls.

Obviously he has bad defense but comparing it to Quan is stupid. At least he has useable armor and decent pokes.

I now see where the Cage community gets their reputation for downplaying.

 

[YoloRoll1stHit]

seriously cage players, noone can ever punish your d3 on block. It's a usable poke, if you hit someone with it it's your turn, if they block d3 it's their turn, like any other poke (except Quan's d1 because it's not really Quan's turn after d1 on hit)

 

[ismael4790]

1. "I take a triple armor over a non-existent one"
Cage has safe high armor across all variations and an unsafe mid in SD if he doesn't have clone and safe if he does with ExSK.

2. Quans backdash is better but anti airs are comparatively good. Cage's NJP works in the same way as Quans while their S1's are just as good.

3. Cage's pokes are better than Quan's. Quans D1 is absolutely terrible and while his D3 is really good it's just not fast enough for getting out of good pressure.

4. Cage is not "trash at zoning". His FB's were ridiculous projectiles for a rush down character pre patch and they've not changed at all. Obviously he's not gonna zone anyone all game but he has a good check to throw out in force balls.

Obviously he has bad defense but comparing it to Quan is stupid. At least he has useable armor and decent pokes.

I now see where the Cage community gets their reputation for downplaying.

No intention of continuing the discussion because I just detected you just didn't read my previous posts, so...

To wrap it up, though:

1- Exkick being safe should not be taken into account that much when we are talking about wakeup. whiffed poke absorbed by exkick allows the opponent to FULL PUNISH Cage, as you didn't read. I hope it is clear now. Exkick on wakeup is WORSE than a full punishable on block armored wakeup as, for example Scorpion ex takedown, because it can be punished without the opponent even taking any kind of chip for blocking.

2- Quan's d3 says hi.

3- Quan: d1 6f, -8 on block. d3 9f -1 on block, d4 15 f -4 on block

Cage: 8f, -3 on block, d3 7f -9 on block, d4 11f, -6 on block.

Quan's fastest poke, d1, is less negative on block than Cage's fastest poke. So here we are. d3 is -1 on block, Cage has not the luxury of being at those frames after any poke. Even considering Quan is only +3 after a successful d1, that sets up a 7f b3 and an 11 f f4. Not bad.
So yeah, I do not think Cage pokes are better AT ALL.

4-Cage is supposed to be a rushdown oriented character. And he does not excel at that area where he should, not even in A-list now. Quan is a 50/50 char with good zoning, and when on the ground one can understand him to suffer a bit because of that. With Cage there is no reason for that penalty.

seriously cage players, noone can ever punish your d3 on block. It's a usable poke, if you hit someone with it it's your turn, if they block d3 it's their turn, like any other poke (except Quan's d1 because it's not really Quan's turn after d1 on hit)

Some scorpions don't punish kenshi's whiffed teleflurry with ex teleport, and that doesn't mean it's not possible or even easy. Good players will punish d3. Anyway, d3 on block is stupid now, specially in the context of his other pokes and his armor sucking, there is no debate here.

 

[The_Tile]

No intention of continuing the discussion because I just detected you just didn't read my previous posts, so...

To wrap it up, though:

1- Exkick being safe should not be taken into account that much when we are talking about wakeup. whiffed poke absorbed by exkick allows the opponent to FULL PUNISH Cage, as you didn't read. I hope it is clear now. Exkick on wakeup is WORSE than a full punishable on block armored wakeup as, for example Scorpion ex takedown, because it can be punished without the opponent even taking any kind of chip for blocking.

2- Quan's d3 says hi.

3- Quan: d1 6f, -8 on block. d3 9f -1 on block, d4 15 f -4 on block

Cage: 8f, -3 on block, d3 7f -9 on block, d4 11f, -6 on block.

Quan's fastest poke, d1 is less negative on block than Cage's fastest poke. So here we are. d3 is -1 on block, Cage has not the luxury of being at those frames after any poke. So yeah, I do not think Cage pokes are better AT ALL.

4-Cage is supposed to be a rushdown oriented character. And he does not excel at that area where he should, not even in A-list now. Quan is a 50/50 char with good zoning, and when on the ground one can understand him to suffer a bit because of that. With Cage there is no reason for that penalty.

How did I not read your post? I replied to every point you made whereas you're just regurgitating the same crap.

1. A safe high is worse than a full combo punishable move... lul okay then. On its own it's bad but with conjunction with SD's mid armor it's not at all WHICH YOU DIDNT READ AGXJFNHS. If you want better armor switch to SD and get gud.

2. Quans D3 is good, like I already said, but is too slow. Again YOU DIDNT READ AHDNRBWIDND.

3. Yeah conveniently list all the startup and block frames to fit your agenda then fail to list the hid adv, Quans D1 is like +3 on hit, which when you take Quans very slow buttons into consideration, isn't even his turn. -1 doesn't even mean anything with Quan as he can't even get his turn started properly after +3.

4. Yeah I know Quan should suffer when he's on the ground that's not the point, it was you who started saying Cage's defense is worse not me. Cage's rush down isn't even bad it's just not as dumb as some other characters like Kang.

All Cage needs MK9 ExNut back but you've got Ismael here not just comparing, but saying Cage's defense is actually worse than Quan. So what does Cage need? Better pokes? Better wakeup? Better rushdown? Cause you're saying he sucks at everything which obviously isn't true. Ridiculous.

Edit: The difference between cancel timing on hit and block is fucking stupid and needs to go though.

 

[ismael4790]

How did I not read your post? I replied to every point you made whereas you're just regurgitating the same crap.

1. A safe high is worse than a full combo punishable move... lul okay then. On its own it's bad but with conjunction with SD's mid armor it's not at all WHICH YOU DIDNT READ AGXJFNHS. If you want better armor switch to SD and get gud.

2. Quans D3 is good, like I already said, but is too slow. Again YOU DIDNT READ AHDNRBWIDND.

3. Yeah conveniently list all the startup and block frames to fit your agenda then fail to list the hid adv, Quans D1 is like +3 on hit, which when you take Quans very slow buttons into consideration, isn't even his turn. -1 doesn't even mean anything with Quan as he can't even get his turn started properly after +3.

4. Yeah I know Quan should suffer when he's on the ground that's not the point, it was you who started saying Cage's defense is worse not me. Cage's rush down isn't even bad it's just not as dumb as some other characters like Kang.

All Cage needs MK9 ExNut back but you've got Ismael here not just comparing, but saying Cage's defense is actually worse than Quan. So what does Cage need? Better pokes? Better wakeup? Better rushdown? Cause you're saying he sucks at everything which obviously isn't true. Ridiculous.

As I told you, idc if you think Cage's defense is worse or better. If it helps you to sleep better, think he has better defense, and move on.

Thing is, facts are facts, Cage only has a high armor to wakeup that can be full punished after absorbing a poke. 0 mental process, fact. Quan armor at least is an overhead. So Cage loses here.

I listed frame data, if they fit with what I'm saying maybe I'm right...? Nah, that would be impossible, you are in Cage forums, I'm a Cage player, I can't be right. Let's move on.

Quan's 9 frame poke is so bad, specially being -1... Who is downplaying? lol

About the d1 poke, my answer was edited before, and if you read it you will see I'm fully aware of it, and also about the fact that being +3 sets up a 7 frame low and an 11 frame overhead, fact that you conveniently omited. Pretty bad, right?

Again, if you sleep better, keep saying Quan has worse defense than Cage, but that assertion is, at the very least, really debatable: Cage pokes are definitely not better, armor on wakeup is objectively worse, backdash is objectively worse and antiairs, being very optimistic, could be equal.

Bye.

P.S: You lost the argument when saying switch to Stunt double I'm mainly comparing UNIVERSAL ARMORS, Cage's exshadowkick and Quan's exdropkick on wakeup.
If you want to introduce the armor of the other variations in the equation, that's fine by me: SD mid armor is full punishable and single armored, whereas Sorcerer one is safe, triple armored and grants a 50/50 on hit.

 

[The_Tile]

As I told you, idc if you think Cage's defense is worse or better. If it helps you to sleep better, think he has better defense, and move on.

Thing is, facts are facts, Cage only has a high armor to wakeup that can be full punished after absorbing a poke. 0 mental process, fact. Quan armor at least is an overhead. So Cage loses here.

I listed frame data, if they fit with what I'm saying maybe I'm right...? Nah, that would be impossible, you are in Cage forums, I'm a Cage player, I can't be right. Let's move on.

Quan's 9 frame poke is so bad, specially being -1... Who is downplaying? lol

About the d1 poke, my answer was edited before, and if you read it you will see I'm fully aware of it, and also about the fact that being +3 sets up a 7 frame low and an 11 frame overhead, fact that you conveniently omited. Pretty bad, right?

Again, if you sleep better, keep saying Quan has worse defense than Cage, but that assertion is, at the very least, really debatable: Cage pokes are definitely not better, armor on wakeup is objectively worse, backdash is objectively worse and antiairs, being very optimistic, could be equal.

Bye.

P.S: You lost the argument when saying switch to Stunt double I'm mainly comparing UNIVERSAL ARMORS, Cage's exshadowkick and Quan's exdropkick on wakeup.

Most normal strings either break Quans armor as it's only 1 hit and is insanely slow or hit him on the way down as the armor runs out after he goes through the ground. No mental process. You keep mentioning it being overhead like that makes a difference... When it doesn't cause you'll never hit someone with it on wakeup.

Yeah you listed all the frame data except for the hit advantage you moron, which is what separates Quans D1 from any other poke as it's only +3.

Where did I say Quans D3 is bad? I said it's very good it's just not fast enough to get out of some high pressure situations as its 9f.

I also said all of his options beside another poke can be poked out of, which a 7f low and 11f OH both can. Anyone with a 6f poke will beat it clean and a 7f will trade (which is everyone bar Tremor IIRC) Who's downplaying? Certainly isn't me.

Cage's pokes are slightly better, armor is certainly better and anti airs are equal. Only thing Quan has is a better backdash.

P.S Yeah you're conveniently talking about universal armor now ive proved you wrong, weren't earlier when you brought up Warlock's armor though were you?

You can't have everything in one variation. You want mid armor switch to SD, simple as. All you ever do is complain about your characters, maybe it's time to realise it's just you that sucks, stop downplaying every character you lay your fingers on and get gud.

The fact that I agree Cage needs a little help but you're still arguing like it makes a difference just reinforces my assumption that you're just downplaying. Your whole post was just a list ditch effort at twisting my words to try and save face, realise you're wrong and go play Sub or something so you can stop moaning about your characters.

 

[ismael4790]

Sorry, no intentions of debating with people that has no respect.

Guess It's better to stick to the eternal outdated trend that all Cage players suck and Cage can't be played without being downplayed, it's a safe bet. I should better stop thinking by myself and join the train of throwing "downplays" from my mouth in Cage forums.

Anyway, you weren't even considering all my points, so why bother.

Bye.

you moron

 

[IrishMantis]

It got intense in here again

lets all chill (no Netflix)

 

[Wigy]

Literally stand a little bit back and block low. Can make overhead whiff and blocks the super punishable low.

This was the option vs cage prepatch.

Except he didnt have the low.

Now you can stand with your balls in his mouth tickling his chin and whispering 'wheres your mid dawg' as long as you're crouched unblocked.

 

[Wigy]

Also jumping answers literally every option except for wakeup D2.

Thats the same for most wakeups.

 

[llabslb]

This was the option vs cage prepatch.

Except he didnt have the low.

Now you can stand with your balls in his mouth tickling his chin and whispering 'wheres your mid dawg' as long as you're crouched unblocked.

I'm actually baffled by that response

 

[Wigy]

Most normal strings either break Quans armor as it's only 1 hit and is insanely slow or hit him on the way down as the armor runs out after he goes through the ground. No mental process. You keep mentioning it being overhead like that makes a difference... When it doesn't cause you'll never hit someone with it on wakeup.

Yeah you listed all the frame data except for the hit advantage you moron, which is what separates Quans D1 from any other poke as it's only +3.

Where did I say Quans D3 is bad? I said it's very good it's just not fast enough to get out of some high pressure situations as its 9f.

I also said all of his options beside another poke can be poked out of, which a 7f low and 11f OH both can. Anyone with a 6f poke will beat it clean and a 7f will trade (which is everyone bar Tremor IIRC) Who's downplaying? Certainly isn't me.

Cage's pokes are slightly better, armor is certainly better and anti airs are equal. Only thing Quan has is a better backdash.

P.S Yeah you're conveniently talking about universal armor now ive proved you wrong, weren't earlier when you brought up Warlock's armor though were you?

You can't have everything in one variation. You want mid armor switch to SD, simple as. All you ever do is complain about your characters, maybe it's time to realise it's just you that sucks, stop downplaying every character you lay your fingers on and get gud.

The fact that I agree Cage needs a little help but you're still arguing like it makes a difference just reinforces my assumption that you're just downplaying. Your whole post was just a list ditch effort at twisting my words to try and save face, realise you're wrong and go play Sub or something so you can stop moaning about your characters.

You realise everyone in the cage community including all the players who have never said he was anything but amazing and have been doing well with him are agreeing hes solid mid tier now. Ismael is saying the same thing, we're not saying hes unplayable, hes not total dogshit. He isnt tourament viable at the highest level, you're limiting your potential playing him. Picking him over liu or cassie is nothing but a handicap. Thats the issue. The benefits of picking him and hugggeeely outweighed by the negatives. Thats what we want sorted!

 

[CrazyFingers]

You realise everyone in the cage community including all the players who have never said he was anything but amazing and have been doing well with him are agreeing hes solid mid tier. Ismael is saying the same thing, we're not saying hes unplayable, hes not total dogshit. He isnt tourament viable at the highest level, you're limiting your potential playing him. Picking him over liu or cassie is nothing but a handicap

Or D'vorrah. D'vorrah does everything he wants to do SOOOOO much better.

 

[Wigy]

Or D'vorrah. D'vorrah does everything he wants to do SOOOOO much better.

Yeah never thought about it cause the sq nerfs but i guess she does.

 

[ismael4790]

You realise everyone in the cage community including all the players who have never said he was anything but amazing and have been doing well with him are agreeing hes solid mid tier now. Ismael is saying the same thing, we're not saying hes unplayable, hes not total dogshit. He isnt tourament viable at the highest level, you're limiting your potential playing him. Picking him over liu or cassie is nothing but a handicap. Thats the issue. The benefits of picking him and hugggeeely outweighed by the negatives. Thats what we want sorted!

It all started by me saying Cage could have worst options on the ground than Quan.
Should have cited Scorpion (often cited as character suffering on the ground) or Kenshi, would have been also true, and less conflictive lol

 

[Asodimazze]

seriously cage players, noone can ever punish your d3 on block. It's a usable poke, if you hit someone with it it's your turn, if they block d3 it's their turn, like any other poke (except Quan's d1 because it's not really Quan's turn after d1 on hit)

This is false. Punishing d3 with another guaranteed poke on hit is something every player can do, no matter the character he is using. That alone is very bad.

Some characters like Shinnok punish d3 heavily without much trouble...in his case f4 and ex hellspark do the job perfectly.

 

[Wigy]

This is false. Punishing d3 with another guaranteed poke on hit is something every player can do, no matter who is using. That alone is a very bad.

Some characters lke Shinnok punish d3 heavily without much trouble...in his case f4 and ex hellspark do the job perfectly.

Its pretty baitable also as its his only answer to tight frame traps. Not to mention unlike a lot of pokes the actual recovery animation is long.

Like after mb dragon kick u kinda gotta d3 with cage as its 0 on block and kang (inexplicably) has a 7f poke now.

Jupe was baiting and full punishing with ex bf3 with kano.

@Orangutan always used to d1 me with kotal if he blocked my d3

 

[Osagri]

This thread won't die :'(

No,but it keeps on giving

 

[Zionix]

Mantis is experimenting with a new possible character.

Help us NRS

Also Tile, I understand what you are trying to say but you aren't giving good examples. "his D3 is too slow to get out of frame traps" then use D1 for this and in a scramble use D3, at worst if they block it you can d1/backdash/njp/cross-up as you are only -1 not -9

Its shit on hit, but there is a big reason why, Quans 50/50s. The moment cage can HKD into the corner, summon a rune and have armored 50/50s or has full screen armored force-balls for no meter, we can talk about character comparisons

Ultimately comparing two weak characters defense is moot and a discussion not worth having.

 

[Osagri]

Or D'vorrah. D'vorrah does everything he wants to do SOOOOO much better.

She

 

[CrazyFingers]

She

Fuck it. My typo will ascend to a meme.

 

[ismael4790]

Mantis is experimenting with a new possible character.

Help us NRS

Also Tile, I understand what you are trying to say but you aren't giving good examples. "his D3 is too slow to get out of frame traps" then use D1 for this and in a scramble use D3, at worst if they block it you can d1/backdash/njp/cross-up as you are only -1 not -9

Its shit on hit, but there is a big reason why, Quans 50/50s. The moment cage can HKD into the corner, summon a rune and have armored 50/50s or has full screen armored force-balls for no meter, we can talk about character comparisons

Ultimately comparing two weak characters defense is moot and a discussion not worth having.

We are all downplayers, anyway. Arguments won't work. Quan's d1 is still +3 on hit, you know...