Question - A-List Who is still playing Cage?

[Gofer_MK]

I don't know what you guys are saying, when cancelled perfectly f3skrc is +12 on block. It still jails into s1, s2, f3.

The problem is that (like I said a billion times) the cancel timing is way too different on block and on hit, so you can't prepare to execute it well enough to jail if the opponent blocks. Also, executing it properly is super weird and feels unnatural even after one month, it's just clunchy. Being forced to wait 5 frames before cancelling SKRC is just dumb.

This was such a dumb change... like why would they do this?

 

[Nedyrc]

Then im still not used to new cancel timings. Mb

edit: Managed to jail s1. Its really weird tho. Gonna test if it jails vs crouching characters(sub for now) too

 

[llabslb]

I thought I remembered posting some frames like that after the patch. I've heard you say this multiple times but I'm still not familiar with what you're talking about. What would happen if you were to prepare to jail the cancel on block and they got hit?

@llabslb Using F3SKRC you get S1 stagger pressure on block, guaranteed.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying A-List has all of these options and we're just being babies. His fastest punisher is 9 frames, his D3 is next to useless, his jump is free to AA, and his armor isn't great. I'm just saying that there are still some positives and people looking to play him can still make him work with practice.

I'm well aware of the extra advantage the SKRC provides but its way too unreliable to do.

 

[xSamuel]

If the opponent is blocking and you were to use the same timing for the SKRC required on hit. F34 will probably come out.

Okay. Is that only if you were to input the SK right before you input FF+Block? I've always input my SK immediately after the string and then canceled later so maybe that's why I wasn't getting that result.

 

[llabslb]

Okay. Is that only if you were to input the SK right before you input FF+Block? I've always input my SK immediately after the string and then canceled later so maybe that's why I wasn't getting that result.

I actually input it the same way as you but I get a different result. @Asodimazze how do you input it?

 

[Nedyrc]

Cool, a-list might not be as bad as i thought. f3 still jails s1 even against crouching characters. i might reconsider keeping a-list as my main yay! So, nerf only effects 12 cancel and f3 into f2. Not that bad.
Need to test if it jails vs small hitbox characters tho.

Edit : it does against mileena

 

[Wigy]

the reason jailing was so important is because jc has no decent mid check after a f3skc.

You have to make a blind guess and hope for the best with f3 dc just to stop people yoloing out.

Dvora cassie liu all have excellent mid checks, cage doesnt.

He can get the first hit in the neutral alright then after his first cancel he cant break, he cant properly pressure he has no way to open you up outside of grab.

 

[Asodimazze]

I thought I remembered posting some frames like that after the patch. I've heard you say this multiple times but I'm still not familiar with what you're talking about. What would happen if you were to prepare to jail the cancel on block and they got hit?.

If you were prepared to cancel on block (so you delayed the cancel purposely by 5 frames) and they get hit, you will still cancel the skrc 5 frames later (or more, if you didn't get the perfect delay). This will prevent some combos from happening because the hit advantage is not always enough to guarantee a follow up if you waste 5 or more frames (for examples 4skrc, f2; f2skrc, f2; f2skrc f3; f24skrc into anything).

If you were prepared to hit the opponent but they block, the situation is even worse because the cancel won't come out at all:

I actually input it the same way as you but I get a different result. @Asodimazze how do you input it?

I usually input SKRC, ffblock right at the end of the string, but for f3SKRC and 4SKRC I input everything fast and then hold the Shadow Kick a little before cancelling it

 

[xSamuel]

If you were prepared to cancel on block (so you delayed the cancel purposely by 5 frames) and they get hit, you will still cancel the skrc 5 frames later (or more, if you didn't get the perfect delay). This will prevent some combos from happening because the hit advantage is not always enough to guarantee a follow up if you waste 5 or more frames (for examples 4skrc, f2; f2skrc, f2; f2skrc f3; f24skrc into anything).

If you were prepared to hit the opponent but they block, the situation is even worse because the cancel won't come out at all:

I usually input SKRC, ffblock right at the end of the string, but for f3SKRC and 4SKRC I input everything fast and then hold the Shadow Kick a little before cancelling it

Thanks for explaining this to me. I didn't realize you were talking about other strings with less hit advantage. Is there any issues similar to this in Fisticuffs? I messed around with it after the patch but never dove too deep into it.

 

[The_Tile]

Oh right without mimics on. Yes.

Its also unsafe as fuck.

I agree Cage is still pretty mid tier but the guy has a point, everyone's complaining about his wakeups but if you want a mid WU go to SD. Yeah it's not amazing but it's there and if you want safe armor use SK.

 

[Wigy]

I agree Cage is still pretty mid tier but the guy has a point, everyone's complaining about his wakeups but if you want a mid WU go to SD. Yeah it's not amazing but it's there and if you want safe armor use SK.

I know its there but almost the entire cast has either unsafe mixup wakeups or safe mid ones (or safeish, like jasons df1) or just good meterless ones like cassie and lao.

Why is it cage who has horrendous anti pressure tools has only got one unsafe one (or one that requires mimics) lol.

 

[The_Tile]

Actually Quan has better defense now than Cage. Better backdash, an overhead armor (slow, but you can't poke like a madman to lowprofile it like with exshadowkick), even triple armor in a variation, and 6f d1, not to mention better antiairs...

Cage's armor is still way better than Quan's lol, if you mash pokes like a mad man you'll either still hit me on the way down or have enough time to still block after the first poke.

Warlocks armor doesn't work properly.

His 6f D1 is one of the worst pokes in the game. Just as punishable as Cage's D3 but he gets nothing on hit guaranteed and the only thing you can't be poked out of is another poke. Quans D3 is good but Cage still has better pokes.

He probably does have better anti airs now that ExNut is gone but that doesn't mean his defense is better.

I was on your guys side but don't spoil it now with the ridiculous downplay again.

 

[Wigy]

Cage's armor is still way better than Quan's lol, if you mash pokes like a mad man you'll either still hit me on the way down or have enough time to still block after the first poke.

Warlocks armor doesn't work properly.

His 6f D1 is one of the worst pokes in the game. Just as punishable as Cage's D3 but he gets nothing on hit guaranteed and the only thing you can't be poked out of is another poke. Quans D3 is good but Cage still has better pokes.

He probably dies have better anti airs now that ExNut is gone but that doesn't mean his defense is better.

I was on your guys side but don't spoil it now with the ridiculous downplay again.

Your njp is effectively your footsie tool though. I'd agree his pokes are probably worse though, his d3 as a standalone poke is very good.

You also have one of the best backdashes in the game so outside of the corner you have more options on kd

 

[The_Tile]

I know its there but almost the entire cast has either unsafe mixup wakeups or safe mid ones (or safeish, like jasons df1) or just good meterless ones like cassie and lao.

Why is it cage who has horrendous anti pressure tools has only got one unsafe one (or one that requires mimics) lol.

You shouldn't justify stupidity with more stupidity. I agree Cage needs something, probably something like MK9 EXNut, but it should be unsafe and 50/50 wakeups are just cancer.

 

[The_Tile]

Your njp is effectively your footsie tool though. I'd agree his pokes are probably worse though, his d3 as a standalone poke is very good.

You also have one of the best backdashes in the game so outside of the corner you have more options on kd

His backdash is better ill give you that but NJP is terrible as a footsie tool, B1/B2 are a million times better just a bit slow.

They messed up the hitbox on his NJP a couple of patches ago so despite being labelled a 'mid', IANJP whiffs on most characters D1s and a lot on crouch blocking because of breathing hitboxes. Not to mention it's death on whiff or block. F3 destroys any footsie tool Quan has for free and I played Cage as a secondary almost from release up to this patch.

Cage's defense is still better than Quans though for the reasons listed in the previous post.

Edit: Hopefully noone caught the derp

 

[Wigy]

You shouldn't justify stupidity with more stupidity. I agree Cage needs something, probably something like MK9 EXNut, but it should be unsafe and 50/50 wakeups are just cancer.

Well thats where we are, we're discussing game balance. Stupidity has to be met with stupidty im not guna suggest nerfs as i dont understand other characters to give informed suggestions.

Ex np on wakeup should just be an armoured version of the regular. Problem solved.

 

[Wigy]

His backdash is better ill give you that but NJP is terrible as a footsie tool, B1/B2 are a million times better just a bit slow.

They messed up the hitbox on his NJP a couple of patches ago so despite being labelled a 'mid', IANJP whiffs on most characters D1s and a lot on crouch blocking because of breathing hitboxes. Not to mention it's death on whiff or block. F3 destroys any footsie tool Quan has for free and I played Cage as a secondary almost from release up to this patch.

Cage's defense is still better than Quans though for the reasons listed in the previous post.

Edit: Hopefully noone caught the derp

I see. I thought his njp hit instantly vs pokes. I was mistaken clearly.

 

[The_Tile]

I see. I thought his njp hit instantly vs pokes. I was mistaken clearly.

Versus some pokes it does and some it doesn't, its very inconsistent now. Still good vs standing attacks and certain pokes with no low profiling ability though.

Well thats where we are, we're discussing game balance. Stupidity has to be met with stupidty im not guna suggest nerfs as i dont understand other characters to give informed suggestions.

Ex np on wakeup should just be an armoured version of the regular. Problem solved.

I know but is giving every character stupid tools really the best solution? I've seen this discussion happen after every patch when a character gets over-nerfed but noone ever really seems to learn. Do really want your character to have safe mid armor like Jason, 50/50 armor like Tanya, footies like Alien and with pokes like Kotal Kahn? Would that really be fun?

I know im exaggerating, people aren't being that bad but the point still stands. Why would you try to balance around stupid and broken stuff?

 

[Wigy]

Versus some pokes it does and some it doesn't, its very inconsistent now. Still good vs standing attacks and certain pokes with no low profiling ability though.


I know but is giving every character stupid tools really the best solution? I've seen this discussion happen after every patch when a character gets over-nerfed but noone ever really seems to learn. Do really want your character to have safe mid armor like Jason, 50/50 armor like Tanya, footies like Alien and with pokes like Kotal Kahn? Would that really be fun?

I know im exaggerating, people aren't being that bad but the point still stands. Why would you try to balance around stupid and broken stuff?

I'd rather there was barely any safe armour at all and if it was it should be high.

And not mixups on wakeup, dont mind either a low or overhead but not both or errons shit where you gotta guess cmd grab or slide or jasons mid (essentially safe) and cmd grab and actually safe bf3

If you're knocked down you should have options but it should still be a hard read.

Liu kang gets out 100% risk free versus almost the entire cast. His wakeup game is easily the most braindead. This is a character with arguably top 3 pressure and very good zoning. Lol

 

[llabslb]

I kinda don't mind his wakeup at the moment. It's not the best but it still does the job for me.

 

[ismael4790]

Cage's armor is still way better than Quan's lol, if you mash pokes like a mad man you'll either still hit me on the way down or have enough time to still block after the first poke.

Warlocks armor doesn't work properly.

His 6f D1 is one of the worst pokes in the game. Just as punishable as Cage's D3 but he gets nothing on hit guaranteed and the only thing you can't be poked out of is another poke. Quans D3 is good but Cage still has better pokes.

He probably does have better anti airs now that ExNut is gone but that doesn't mean his defense is better.

I was on your guys side but don't spoil it now with the ridiculous downplay again.

Imo considering all together, Quan has actually better or comparable defense.

I take a triple armor inconsistent over a non existent one, backdash is immensely better, same as antiairs that of course are related with defense.

And btw, poking against wakeup exshadowkick also allows to full punish Cage after, so...

Let's agree to disagree if you want with the fact of who has worse defense, idc, Cage has one of the worst set of defensive tools in the whole game, that's obvious, and annoying because his offense is not that good at all to justify it. Old A-List being free on the ground would have made some kind of sense due to great pressure. Now it doesn't. Quan at least is not trash at zoning.

You guys should stop using the label downplay when entering a Cage forum, we are in december. Patch happened, and in case you don't know, Cage got hit hard, he is mediocre at best. Fisticuffs not being the worst variation says a lot.

 

[CrazyFingers]

I still play Cage, he isn't really good anymore, but he still rewards players with a good neutral. You have too think a lot more and keep offense going, due to the lack of his defensive options.

This so damn much. Cage has really become more of a character that is taking the player's skill into account more than the character's strength. If you do well with Cage you feel rewarded and should probably feel a sense of pride because it shows that you're good at the game. You need to be on point with him (in all 3 variations) you can't potato your way to victory.

 

[CrazyFingers]

Also on the subject of bad defense, while I understand Cage's defense is complete garbage, there is one character that competes with that garbageness and that's Leatherface. Yea I have Overhead and Low armor but both are HIGHLY unsafe on block and the overhead/mid options have terrible whiff recovery AND whiffing issues. My backdash is bottom 3 FREE. Only saving grace are my good pokes. Having bad defense in this game while super frustrating and difficult, is not the end all be all. Just my two cents. Hope you guys get buffs in a future patch while Leatherface rots in a corner with no help (RIP whiffing issues across the board, at least the setplay is good)

 

[Wigy]

Also on the subject of bad defense, while I understand Cage's defense is complete garbage, there is one character that competes with that garbageness and that's Leatherface. Yea I have Overhead and Low armor but both are HIGHLY unsafe on block and the overhead/mid options have terrible whiff recovery AND whiffing issues. My backdash is bottom 3 FREE. Only saving grace are my good pokes. Having bad defense in this game while super frustrating and difficult, is not the end all be all. Just my two cents. Hope you guys get buffs in a future patch while Leatherface rots in a corner with no help (RIP whiffing issues across the board, at least the setplay is good)

What?!

Unsafe on block mixups. They still have to guess if you're guna wakeup and then guess what the mixup will be? nowhere near as bad.

 

[CrazyFingers]

What?!

Unsafe on block mixups. They still have to guess if you're guna wakeup and then guess what the mixup will be? nowhere near as bad.

Literally stand a little bit back and block low. Can make overhead whiff and blocks the super punishable low.