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Where are pros going to go after "ditiching" mk1 ?

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
Why does Tom Brady care what random weirdos on a mostly dead site post about him?

Strange behavior.
 

rifraf

Noob
let characters feel powerful so you can actually use kameo's to change up your style, not fix GAPING HOLES
I feel this one should be the balance philosophy for the game. It would've been great if someone from NRS communicated with the community about these things. Oh well...
 

ReD WolF

Lord of the Drip
I feel this one should be the balance philosophy for the game. It would've been great if someone from NRS communicated with the community about these things. Oh well...
DUDE. You just made an entire thread calling for nerfs lol! I agree with the post that you are quoting, but it is not commensurate with what you were saying in your thread.
 

LEGEND

YES!
Great post. Especially number 5. This is the first NRS game I’ve seen where a player can get a character to top 8 (online) tournament level with 2 or 3 days of play.
wth are you talking about?

this would exist in every game if it was allowed to. Its typical for new characters to be banned from (actual) competitive play for 2 weeks after release for this very reason. Defending against something new is way harder than executing something new. Offense always outpaces defense.
 

Amplified$hotz

I like Tekken 8
wth are you talking about?

this would exist in every game if it was allowed to. Its typical for new characters to be banned from (actual) competitive play for 2 weeks after release for this very reason. Defending against something new is way harder than executing something new. Offense always outpaces defense.
Not at all what I said.

I’m talking about players being able to pick up existing characters in about 1 day to a week and place top 8 with them. Without any matchup knowledge or the advantage of playing a newly released character. Because of how one dimensional the game is.
 
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Felipe_Gewehr

Twinktile
5. MK1's gameplay is "ok". There's a lot of repetitive patterns where no matter who you're playing you feel like you're doing the same thing, and there's not enough situations in the game where you want to do anything else. Sure plenty of characters are viable, but they feel like 90's viable where 80% of their kit is trash but hey there's 3 good normals and this one busted special move so just use those. It's just not fun to watch. Combos tend to route into similar situations, and huge portions of the cast's movelist (ESPECIALLY THE KAMEO'S) are useless. How often are you seeing anything other than stryker nades? Sure he's a viable kameo, but the risk reward is wrong so he's boring as fuck. And a lot of main characters got their knee's broken with the idea of "well with a kameo you can" but the actual effect is watching lao/tanya just live and die on how many armored launchers hit. Worse there's a lot of "solved" feeling kameo picks. It's not like ninjakiller plays with kameo x and rewind with y (assuming they mained the same character). Most of it devloves down to the same picks, JUST LIKE THE VARIATION SYSTEM.
So, I agree generally with every other point you made, but this one caught my attention: when was this NOT the case with NRS MK games? Everyone at the competitive level has used characters the exact same way since MK9. You saw cage doing frame traps into restands. You saw Sonya using armored reversals into safe pressure into armored reversals. Kenshi zoned, then occasionaly did a combo that pushed you fullscreen. Cyrax was reset into 80% combos. Kabal was NDC pressure inbetween gas blast zoning.

Same with Rekkas Tanya, Acidic Alien, Bat and Sorcerer Quan Chi, Demo Sonya, Grandmaster sub, Flash Parry into Pressure Tremor in MKX.

Same thing with Cetrion. Same thing with Jade, Kang, Air Kabal.

Every single one of the past MK games, characters would play the exact same game at high levels.

There wasnt a zoning cage in MK9 or a stagger into mixup Kenshi. There wasnt a non-reset Cyrax. Every character eventually boiled down to their respective most effective tactic available gameplay, and different people playing the same character did not differ significantly in style at all.
 

LEGEND

YES!
Not at all what I said.

I’m talking about players being able to pick up existing characters in about 1 day to a week and place top 8 with them. Without any matchup knowledge or the advantage of playing a newly released character. Because of how one dimensional the game is.
i think this is more indicative of online play and generally low skill level + the point i made, rather than the game being one dimensional.

i honestly don't know why people keep acting like online play is in any way the same game too. 3 frame baked in delay + more if the connection is anything but perfect is insane. how many things become true mixups, unable to be upblocked on reaction, blocked on reaction, wiff punished on reaction. . .its crazy. This isn't strictly pointed at you, i just don't know why it isn't being harped on nearly as hard as the desynch issue.

In SF6 i roll my eyes if i see anything over 1 frame delay and this game is at 3 BY DEFAULT. Nuts
 

Amplified$hotz

I like Tekken 8
So, I agree generally with every other point you made, but this one caught my attention: when was this NOT the case with NRS MK games? Everyone at the competitive level has used characters the exact same way since MK9. You saw cage doing frame traps into restands. You saw Sonya using armored reversals into safe pressure into armored reversals. Kenshi zoned, then occasionaly did a combo that pushed you fullscreen. Cyrax was reset into 80% combos. Kabal was NDC pressure inbetween gas blast zoning.

Same with Rekkas Tanya, Acidic Alien, Bat and Sorcerer Quan Chi, Demo Sonya, Grandmaster sub, Flash Parry into Pressure Tremor in MKX.

Same thing with Cetrion. Same thing with Jade, Kang, Air Kabal.

Every single one of the past MK games, characters would play the exact same game at high levels.

There wasnt a zoning cage in MK9 or a stagger into mixup Kenshi. There wasnt a non-reset Cyrax. Every character eventually boiled down to their respective most effective tactic available gameplay, and different people playing the same character did not differ significantly in style at all.
From my perspective this isn’t true. The characters had their archetypes but the way that archetype was presented was varied due to their more inspired movesets and game mechanics.

Even then, MK9 is an old game that should’ve been improved upon.
 

Amplified$hotz

I like Tekken 8
I mean.... if you've been playing the

How is learning a character quickly equate to the game being 1 dimensional ?
Because you don’t need a new set of skills to pick up a character. They all essentially have the same gameplan or a different variation of the same thing. Overwhelming offense and absurd space control and doing everything with a skewed risk reward ratio.
 
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Not at all what I said.

I’m talking about players being able to pick up existing characters in about 1 day to a week and place top 8 with them. Without any matchup knowledge or the advantage of playing a newly released character. Because of how one dimensional the game is.
How is learning a character quickly equate to the game being 1 dimensional ?
(original post messed up)
 

Amplified$hotz

I like Tekken 8
i think this is more indicative of online play and generally low skill level + the point i made, rather than the game being one dimensional.

i honestly don't know why people keep acting like online play is in any way the same game too. 3 frame baked in delay + more if the connection is anything but perfect is insane. how many things become true mixups, unable to be upblocked on reaction, blocked on reaction, wiff punished on reaction. . .its crazy. This isn't strictly pointed at you, i just don't know why it isn't being harped on nearly as hard as the desynch issue.

In SF6 i roll my eyes if i see anything over 1 frame delay and this game is at 3 BY DEFAULT. Nuts
Online play? I’m talking about an online tournament. Where the best players are supposed to be.

The Mighty Unjust placed top 8 two weeks ago with his day 1 Tanya/Goro. I’ve never seen that before even from a prodigy like Sonic.

I’m just trying to let people understand why the game isn’t very mentally stimulating to some players. I don’t care to convince anyone of anything.
 
Because you don’t need a new set of skills to pick up a character. They all essentially have the same gameplan or a different variation of the same thing. Overwhelming offense and absurd space control.
I feel like your categories are very/ too wide for putting characters into groups. I mean you can say that about any fighting game or fighting game character list.
 

Amplified$hotz

I like Tekken 8
I feel like your categories are very/ too wide for putting characters into groups. I mean you can say that about any fighting game or fighting game character list.
No, you can’t.

In MK9 and Injustice 1 (aside from the character being broken) no one could just pick up a character day 1 and place top 8 in a tournament with zero head to head matchup knowledge. If it happened I’ve never seen it.

The characters tools and playstyles in those games were way too varied and unique for you to do that without getting blown up.

You could never imagine M2Dave picking up Flash or Smoke. Or honeybee picking up Raven because of how broad the playstyle spectrum was in that game. Especially where they can compete after only one day of play.

Anyway that’s just my opinion. I don’t care if anyone agrees or not.
 

Felipe_Gewehr

Twinktile
From my perspective this isn’t true. The characters had their archetypes but the way that archetype was presented was varied due to their more inspired movesets and game mechanics.

Even then, MK9 is an old game that should’ve been improved upon.
I meant, I was seeing every Kabal, Sonya, Cyrax etc play the same. There was not a difference between Reo's Kabal and Eric Warda's, same for every other character. The same was true in MKX, but there were some few and far between oddballs that would use lesser explored variations from common characters - Boneshaper Shinnok would play different from Impostor Shinnok, but every boneshaper would still play the same, as well as every Impostor.

Imo, the same was true in Mk11. Im not familiar with Tekken and Street Fighter, but I'd wager there arent two players that would play, say, Eddy, in a way that would be vastly different from eachother. It's just kinda how fighting games work, I guess.
 

Amplified$hotz

I like Tekken 8
I meant, I was seeing every Kabal, Sonya, Cyrax etc play the same. There was not a difference between Reo's Kabal and Eric Warda's, same for every other character. The same was true in MKX, but there were some few and far between oddballs that would use lesser explored variations from common characters - Boneshaper Shinnok would play different from Impostor Shinnok, but every boneshaper would still play the same, as well as every Impostor.

Imo, the same was true in Mk11. Im not familiar with Tekken and Street Fighter, but I'd wager there arent two players that would play, say, Eddy, in a way that would be vastly different from eachother. It's just kinda how fighting games work, I guess.
Well personally in all my time watching NRS games, I’ve never seen a Kung Lao like Perfect Legend’s, a Batman like Forever King’s, a ZOD like Pig Of The Hut’s, a Batman like Darth Arma’s, an Aquaman like THEOs, an Erron Black like Sonic Fox’s, a Sub-Zero like Tom Brady’s, a Jax like Tyrant’s, a Flash like Honeybee’s, a Shang/Sinestro like Wound Cowboy’s, or a Liu Kang like Ninjakilla’s,.

In fact these players were hard to game plan for because you couldn’t find anyone else that plays like them even if you’re familiar with the character.

That’s not true of Tekken either. You can watch Knee and Lowhigh (who are both from Korea) both play Bryan in Tekken 7 and see how differently they approach the game. This doesn’t even factor in how people from different regions (America, Korea, Pakistan, Japan) play differently.

Anyway my point is that playstyles were more varied (yet effective) in the first two games. The characters had archetypes and game plans yes, but there was more freedom in how you wanted to execute them.

But that’s just my opinion. I’m not trying to convince anyone. Just sharing this perspective for people who don’t understand why some feel this way.
 
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So, I agree generally with every other point you made, but this one caught my attention: when was this NOT the case with NRS MK games? Everyone at the competitive level has used characters the exact same way since MK9. You saw cage doing frame traps into restands. You saw Sonya using armored reversals into safe pressure into armored reversals. Kenshi zoned, then occasionaly did a combo that pushed you fullscreen. Cyrax was reset into 80% combos. Kabal was NDC pressure inbetween gas blast zoning.

Same with Rekkas Tanya, Acidic Alien, Bat and Sorcerer Quan Chi, Demo Sonya, Grandmaster sub, Flash Parry into Pressure Tremor in MKX.

Same thing with Cetrion. Same thing with Jade, Kang, Air Kabal.

Every single one of the past MK games, characters would play the exact same game at high levels.

There wasnt a zoning cage in MK9 or a stagger into mixup Kenshi. There wasnt a non-reset Cyrax. Every character eventually boiled down to their respective most effective tactic available gameplay, and different people playing the same character did not differ significantly in style at all.
This is a hard thing to discuss because its one of those "I know it when I see it" things, but basically, the "what do they do" for mk9 was pretty wide.

Yes. Cage blendered the fuck out of you once he got in, but if you watched the pace/spacing/etc of a match with cage, and then watched a match with kenshi, it felt totally different. In part because now instead of being knee deep in their opponent he wants to leave room for jesus the entire fucking match.

You had strong rushdown, strong zoning, strong chip, strong jank, etc. Variety. A game where you've got a decent TOD character, a do everything monster, 2 zoners from hell, several glitchy as fuck characters, and a low tier who can rip off half your HP on block.

MK1 feels like everyone has roughly the same "pattern" to their style. There is no mk9 kenshi/freddy. There is no mk9 cyrax. They almost feel like johnnys.

It's not awful, but as someone who always likes the oddballs of fight game casts, seeing characters like sub and quan struggle to be remotely unique in their play patterns while half the cast has you hold ambush pressure until you crack is disheartening.

Its extra frustrating because its soooooo close to having that identity. The tools are there, its just odd that only a few characters really get to have that identity. Cage, Raiden, Smoke, Kenshi, Shao off the top of my head have some really neat stuff.

But then you watch Rain and like....what does rain DO? He sorta kinda zones, he sorta kinda sets up, but its so fucking weird to have a character with 2 full screen projectiles who will MAYBE throw out 2 in a row, and probably want sub zero armor if he's vs anyone else who has a projectile. Forget what some kombat kast said about him, he just feels weird when half his move list isn't used that much. Bubble is meh, portals are mostly a gimmick, his two projectiles are situational as hell, etc. Its lots of "here's your 3 good normals, use them"

Compare this to mk9 kenshi where you saw CLASSIC zoner patterns of someone just dying to get in as they played bullet hell from across the screen and then hoped to god they could blow him up before he got out.

There's nothing near that unique in mk1. There's zoning, but it's conditional/tepid, not a gameplan. There's setups, but rather than neat shit like ice clone into ex slide its all mostly just combo into low/high setup.

Anyways I can ramble about this all day, and i'm certainly not the only one to feel this way. For all the potential one could see in kameos and characters, MK1 feels like some characters just aren't allowed to rock. Kenshi is fucking great. Absolute bullshit with neat mehanics and holy hell how is that fair vibes, so why do reptile, scorp, sub, quan, and others im forgetting feel like they're at the kiddy table.
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
Premium Supporter
Honestly, you should just play a game you like. Don't chase trends. That's whack.
100%, and stop playing games expecting to become a top player. Not saying don’t be a competitive player, but there’s honestly not that much upside from being a “pro” anyway. Especially in legacy games as Rude said like Tekken. Just play and have fun. If you’re not having fun anymore, play something else. Being handcuffed to a game you hate is just going to make you miserable.
 

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
This is a hard thing to discuss because its one of those "I know it when I see it" things, but basically, the "what do they do" for mk9 was pretty wide.

Yes. Cage blendered the fuck out of you once he got in, but if you watched the pace/spacing/etc of a match with cage, and then watched a match with kenshi, it felt totally different. In part because now instead of being knee deep in their opponent he wants to leave room for jesus the entire fucking match.

You had strong rushdown, strong zoning, strong chip, strong jank, etc. Variety. A game where you've got a decent TOD character, a do everything monster, 2 zoners from hell, several glitchy as fuck characters, and a low tier who can rip off half your HP on block.

MK1 feels like everyone has roughly the same "pattern" to their style. There is no mk9 kenshi/freddy. There is no mk9 cyrax. They almost feel like johnnys.

It's not awful, but as someone who always likes the oddballs of fight game casts, seeing characters like sub and quan struggle to be remotely unique in their play patterns while half the cast has you hold ambush pressure until you crack is disheartening.

Its extra frustrating because its soooooo close to having that identity. The tools are there, its just odd that only a few characters really get to have that identity. Cage, Raiden, Smoke, Kenshi, Shao off the top of my head have some really neat stuff.

But then you watch Rain and like....what does rain DO? He sorta kinda zones, he sorta kinda sets up, but its so fucking weird to have a character with 2 full screen projectiles who will MAYBE throw out 2 in a row, and probably want sub zero armor if he's vs anyone else who has a projectile. Forget what some kombat kast said about him, he just feels weird when half his move list isn't used that much. Bubble is meh, portals are mostly a gimmick, his two projectiles are situational as hell, etc. Its lots of "here's your 3 good normals, use them"

Compare this to mk9 kenshi where you saw CLASSIC zoner patterns of someone just dying to get in as they played bullet hell from across the screen and then hoped to god they could blow him up before he got out.

There's nothing near that unique in mk1. There's zoning, but it's conditional/tepid, not a gameplan. There's setups, but rather than neat shit like ice clone into ex slide its all mostly just combo into low/high setup.

Anyways I can ramble about this all day, and i'm certainly not the only one to feel this way. For all the potential one could see in kameos and characters, MK1 feels like some characters just aren't allowed to rock. Kenshi is fucking great. Absolute bullshit with neat mehanics and holy hell how is that fair vibes, so why do reptile, scorp, sub, quan, and others im forgetting feel like they're at the kiddy table.

I'm pretty glad we don't have anything remotely like MK9 Cyrax. That shit was cursed.
 

Felipe_Gewehr

Twinktile
This is a hard thing to discuss because its one of those "I know it when I see it" things, but basically, the "what do they do" for mk9 was pretty wide.

Yes. Cage blendered the fuck out of you once he got in, but if you watched the pace/spacing/etc of a match with cage, and then watched a match with kenshi, it felt totally different. In part because now instead of being knee deep in their opponent he wants to leave room for jesus the entire fucking match.

You had strong rushdown, strong zoning, strong chip, strong jank, etc. Variety. A game where you've got a decent TOD character, a do everything monster, 2 zoners from hell, several glitchy as fuck characters, and a low tier who can rip off half your HP on block.

MK1 feels like everyone has roughly the same "pattern" to their style. There is no mk9 kenshi/freddy. There is no mk9 cyrax. They almost feel like johnnys.

It's not awful, but as someone who always likes the oddballs of fight game casts, seeing characters like sub and quan struggle to be remotely unique in their play patterns while half the cast has you hold ambush pressure until you crack is disheartening.

Its extra frustrating because its soooooo close to having that identity. The tools are there, its just odd that only a few characters really get to have that identity. Cage, Raiden, Smoke, Kenshi, Shao off the top of my head have some really neat stuff.

But then you watch Rain and like....what does rain DO? He sorta kinda zones, he sorta kinda sets up, but its so fucking weird to have a character with 2 full screen projectiles who will MAYBE throw out 2 in a row, and probably want sub zero armor if he's vs anyone else who has a projectile. Forget what some kombat kast said about him, he just feels weird when half his move list isn't used that much. Bubble is meh, portals are mostly a gimmick, his two projectiles are situational as hell, etc. Its lots of "here's your 3 good normals, use them"

Compare this to mk9 kenshi where you saw CLASSIC zoner patterns of someone just dying to get in as they played bullet hell from across the screen and then hoped to god they could blow him up before he got out.

There's nothing near that unique in mk1. There's zoning, but it's conditional/tepid, not a gameplan. There's setups, but rather than neat shit like ice clone into ex slide its all mostly just combo into low/high setup.

Anyways I can ramble about this all day, and i'm certainly not the only one to feel this way. For all the potential one could see in kameos and characters, MK1 feels like some characters just aren't allowed to rock. Kenshi is fucking great. Absolute bullshit with neat mehanics and holy hell how is that fair vibes, so why do reptile, scorp, sub, quan, and others im forgetting feel like they're at the kiddy table.
Oh, right, Im not disagreeing with this. I was under the impression you meant the same character could be played very differently by two different players, not that the different characters from MK9 had very distinct playstyles. Cage absolutely played a lot different than Kenshi, for example.