Discussion What is actually wrong with MKXL

[STRYKIE]

Cage's EX nutpunch is pretty safe with all the pushback. Leads into re-stand and more pressure.

Edit: Cassie's flipkick is pretty safe as well.

Cassie's flipkick isn't armored.

Also, restand =/= vortex.

Question, what characters have safe armored launcher into vortex? Because I count about none. There are like two safe armored launchers in this game. Punchwalk and Crystaline Down Shatter. Am I missing any?

There's also Lackey Torr's EX Torryuken which is pseudo-safe at -7, but that's it. And none of them "lead into a vortex", or even a restand if you will.

This thread pretty much sums up all the over-generalized mantras and Chinese whispers that go around about this game. So yeah, this thread is buns.

 

[shura30]

ok, this is one of those 'we don't want to play mkx but street fighter' threads

mkx rewards aggressive playstyle
it won't work another way BECAAUSE BREAKERS
do you imagine how sf would play if there were breakers in it?play footsies the whole time just to land a hit after 1000 calculations and see it blown away because your opponent did spit you at the very beginning of the match and has already 2 stock of meter

i agree with all of this:

This game is full of many armor attacks that have one or more of the following traits:

1.) Go half screen
2.) Launch into combos (some even 40%+ just for getting hit by a 1 bar armor attack)
3.) Immediately start with armor on the first available frame
4.) Overhead or Low armor attacks
5.) Safe armor attacks
6.) Not easy to punish armor attacks with unnecessary pushback or blockstun

especially when we talk about those armored launching special, those allow a huge comeback factor and are usually paired with restands that allow one to quickly restore advantage and force the opponent into a stupid guessing situations

armored moves should just work as a panic button, you make the right read, you blast your opponent away
or if we want to keep launchers which is plausible because there are still breakers there should be a massive damage % reduction

also, armored launchers works wonders as a threat during relentless pressure: think of a-list's exnut
when you might think it's your turn to press buttons, another yomi layer is added in which is your opponent baiting you into buttons to be armored so you get punished for trying to get back at some minus frames

in some occasions I've also said that invincibility over armor is better to counter HTBs ( I play hollywood, I know the benefits of invincibility)
but really can't tell which is more stupid as a comeback

 

[Belial]

ok, this is one of those 'we don't want to play mkx but street fighter' threads

Really? Did you even read the OP?

 

[omooba]

other than jump mechanics and balance issues the game is perfect

 

[shura30]

Really? Did you even read the OP?

I guess you didn't read mine either
your kind of posts are superficial, take things under a different light than the one they're supposed to and (try to) bias the topic

am I saying there is not stupid shit that should be removed asap in mkx?of course not, I'm not delusional
But you have to think at something in the whole mkx context
we have to be adults and say that the groundbase for mkx identity is there, but there's things that were overlooked during testing and somehow made to the final game affecting balance

to me, in light also of the current state of the fighting game genre, mkx need tweaks and faster than the current patch schedule
we're a smaller playerbase with the bad habit of jumping on tiers while forgetting there's someone else in line that is just waiting for the crusade against said top to end to take over

that's why in the few intellingent posts or podcast I've read something about tier shifting

patching should be monthly just like it happens in other kind of games, elsewhere there's big money involved (monthly fees, p2w etc) no one should worry for their main with bi-montly 300 players 'major'

 

[hkriderz]

I agree that this game has tons of balance issues with armor. But one of the worst things about this game is disjointed hitbox strings. Takeda alien Jin Dvorah have strings that start combos and they can't be touched countered or anything. Make them whiff or just block. I think that's ridiculous. Alien just b3s you from breaker distance so it's useless to break sometimes lol. Especially Takeda though. For a character with a teleport having 3/4 screen untouchable normals is stupid.

Also I'd like to throw launching 50 50s. I didn't know until this game that losing coin flips made you bad at fighting games. I understands reads and hard reads and all that. There's guessing in FGs to some extent. But overhead low and both full combo is stupid.

Other things are pseudo unblockable setups, safe launching armor, HITBOXES female and crouching (seriously NRS), and jumps.

 

[CrazyFingers]

Cassie's flipkick isn't armored.

Also, restand =/= vortex.


There's also Lackey Torr's EX Torryuken which is pseudo-safe at -7, but that's it. And none of them "lead into a vortex", or even a restand if you will.

This thread pretty much sums up all the over-generalized mantras and Chinese whispers that go around about this game. So yeah, this thread is buns.

Yea we've had the armored launcher conversation before on multiple threads, stop saying they're prevelant (not you STRYKIE, you know they aren't plentiful this is referring to the people who have this misconception) and stop spreading these myths about the game

 

[CrazyFingers]

Cage's EX nutpunch is pretty safe with all the pushback. Leads into re-stand and more pressure.

Edit: Cassie's flipkick is pretty safe as well.

Cage's nutpunch can still be punished AKA not safe.

 

[Cobainevermind87]

Cage's nutpunch can still be punished AKA not safe.

Yeah I know, Kay Jay pointed that out an hour and a half ago.

 

[THTB]

Agree with pretty much all of your points. But I'd also add armor to your list. Armor was one of the most complained about things in MK9, and it's still an issue many years later. NRS needs to find a way to better balance the rampant armor that plagues the game.


Devastating armor attacks should not be available like candy 90% of the match, especially with so many that impact a match similar or more than an X-Ray attack.

This game is full of many armor attacks that have one or more of the following traits:

1.) Go half screen
2.) Launch into combos (some even 40%+ just for getting hit by a 1 bar armor attack)
3.) Immediately start with armor on the first available frame
4.) Overhead or Low armor attacks
5.) Safe armor attacks
6.) Not easy to punish armor attacks with unnecessary pushback or blockstun

Armor just adds to the craziness of the game, and indirectly benefits offense more so than the "defense" that many seem to preach as a selling point. If some characters armor only functioned or triggered during "reversal" window or "wake-up" window (like Scorpion EX teleport), then I'd understand. But 98% of the armor in this game does not and is available at any given time as long as one easily attainable bar is present.



I do agree that some defensive traits should be buffed in this game. Things like backdashes, backward walkspeed, anti-airs, building slight meter while blocking, block breakers, no chip outs for certain attacks, etc. etc. or any ideas that specifically target the defensive aspect of the game should be either improved, or looked into.

I've always felt armor moves were too all-purpose and do way too much. Like, there are armor attacks that work well not only as general pressure defense, but also operate as anti-zoning options, anti-footsies, punishment,etc. And then some characters have a ton of armor attacks, a lot of the time having different answers to handle.

I feel like NRS games would benefit from using traditional invincibility in place of armor. Like something like Jax EX dash punch being projectile and throw invincible, while EX gotcha has either armor or strike and throw invincibility would be a better alternative. Or for Alien, instead of having a ton of armor options, two of which being 50/50s, something like EX tail grab is projectile invincible, and EX flip is strike and throw invincible would handle dealing with him on wakeup and reduce his ability to play anti-zone without eliminating it. Shit like that...just examples.

 

[EMPEROR PRYCE]

A lot of these issues brought up I agree with, but only slightly. I say only slightly because a lot of these things exist in every fighting game, and generally these other fighting games just simply do a better job at balancing them out.

Jumping is only so strong because NRS doesn't have a priority system in place. Most if not every other fighting game differentiates the properties of a jump attack from a grounded one. Therefore it's possible to add short of bursts of invincibility frames to moves designated as AA attacks. These frames wouldn't be present in the attack if used on a grounded opponent.

There's also no rhyme or reason behind jump attacks in the game, it seems they just all have an animation... but for no purpose. They're just... jump attacks. Across the street fighter series for jump attacks, looking at animations you can tell that "this jump attack is good for air to air" "this one is good for cross up" etc etc.


Armors only an issue in NRS because they don't care which move it goes too. Armored launcher mix ups *I'm looking at you Alien* is the stupidest fucking shit ever. If universally armored attacks were all 6 frame mids that led to a standard knockdown (not hkd) this wouldn't be an issue. The issue is the risk reward implemented behind armor is usually ALWAYS in the aggressors favor.

I shouldn't have to cover 50/50 loopable resets that give 0 options but guessing and both options of the mix up lead to the same amount of ridiculous damage. I understand sfv has similar situations, especially w a character like Ken. One of his options is throw though, which while it resets the situation it doesn't do too much damage and on the off chance u tech by guessing correctly, the neutral is reset. This generally isn't the case for MKX.

Long range normals isn't an issue imo, only if they are mix ups. If you can't get past a long range mid when u can run cancel block to move forward.. IDK what to tell you.


These are my opinions tho.

 

[Tony at Home]

There is 100 characters in MKX but tournaments barely see 10. About 10% of the cast is viable - this is TERRIBLE balance

Really? Only 10 viable variations in the game? Between Sonya and Alien you already have 6.

 

[TyCarter35]

Not to mention that only a select few characters can even break armor consistently. Liu Kang, Mileena, Cassie, Kung Jin, Ninjutsu Scorp, etc. Probably missed one or two.

Because of the stupid armor in the game it's like the only reason I picked up ninjutsu just to solely combat the broke af armor. Maybe half cast is able to break armor consistently with hard knockdown setups and stuff while only a select few can break FAST armored launcher which seems to be quite prevalent in this game. Also jip being plus especially with some characters having huge hitboxes on those jip and some BEING PLUS on whiff like Alien's jip which is stupid like wtf NRS

 

[Skedar70]

I think its the whiners in the community. They lose and then they blame the game. I only think some variations are a little weak but aside from that I think the game is very good and pretty well balanced, every character at least has one variation that can contest (some even all three). NRS did a lot of work on MKX and people are still complaining and insulting NRS constantly. To me it seems like the community is ungrateful. Most of the time everything I see in this site is negative about the game. The game will never be perfect, it is what it is.

 

[trufenix]

Really? Only 10 viable variations in the game? Between Sonya and Alien you already have 6.

Haven't you heard? Sonya, Alien, Takeda and one Johnny are the only viable characters in the game. Everyone else is unusable in high level play. #don'tshiftmytiersbro

 

[MK FIGHTER]

Just make armored attacks much faster on startup, have 4 hits of invincibility that's only overpowered by an x-ray attack, reduce meter building on all projectile shooting characters, and make all specials and armored specials punishable on block across the board. Oh and nerf Sonya's dive kick.

 

[CrazyFingers]

Just make armored attacks much faster on startup, have 4 hits of invincibility that's only overpowered by an x-ray attack, reduce meter building on all projectile shooting characters, and make all specials and armored specials punishable on block across the board. Oh and nerf Sonya's dive kick.

Can't tell if trolling or serious...

 

[Johnny Based Cage]

Couldn't agree more with most of the complaints in this thread and they're especially glaring on a more casual level. Fighting games are supposed to be like chess and this one feels more like Milton Bradley's Shark Attack!

There's such a large player base with thousands of matches under their belts a year and a half into the game's lifespan still jumping around like maniacs and constantly mashing out shit because the reward for that sort of asinine day 1 playstyle still outweighs the risk so heavily.

It's terrifying to even want to try to play the way you think you should in a fighting game where scrub mentality tactics like jumping around with jik's and spamming njp's in the neutral and constantly running in with advancing strings and attacking out of turn/mashing out armor attacks and all that other dumb shit can actually blow up attempts to grow as a player and learn to anti-air, counterpoke, play footsies and so on and so forth, and on such an imbalanced level from character to character too.

I'm not even a week into playing SFV and I already feel more comfortable with it on a fundamental level lol.

 

[Cobainevermind87]

Haven't you heard? Sonya, Alien, Takeda and one Johnny are the only viable characters in the game. Everyone else is unusable in high level play. #don'tshiftmytiersbro

Heh don't forget piercing Mileena.

 

[Rude]

The real problem with MKXL is that it's players would rather post their design docs and bitch about the game rather than accept it for what it is and actually play it.

These people think that every fighter should have a homogenized set of rules that allows this game to play like however their favorite fighter plays. "Footsies" as short hand agenda-pushing for, "this game doesn't play the way I want it to, so it's the game's fault."

MKXL is a game that demands to be taken on its own terms. You'd think after a year the people that evidently do not like it would just stop playing it, but people aren't happy unless they're complaining I guess.

 

[SaSSolino]

Question, what characters have safe armored launcher into vortex? Because I count about none. There are like two safe armored launchers in this game. Punchwalk and Crystaline Down Shatter. Am I missing any?

Lakey Torr's db2 is safe I belive

also safe-ish is Tremor's up rock

Demolition's reversal also is safe midscreen and launches

 

[JTB123]

The real problem with MKXL is that it's players would rather post their design docs and bitch about the game rather than accept it for what it is and actually play it.

These people think that every fighter should have a homogenized set of rules that allows this game to play like however their favorite fighter plays. "Footsies" as short hand agenda-pushing for, "this game doesn't play the way I want it to, so it's the game's fault."

MKXL is a game that demands to be taken on its own terms. You'd think after a year the people that evidently do not like it would just stop playing it, but people aren't happy unless they're complaining I guess.

I just can't like this enough. Especially the bold part.

 

[MrArcher15]

I'm not as knowledgeable as other guys but what if like Reo has said a breaker was a bad and armored moves was two bars?

 

[Belial]

I believe its possible that NRS is taking their game into a different direction than becoming another Street Fighter. At least thats a possibility. Thats why in the OP I repeatedly said that this points ARE NOT BAD BY ITSELF.

Footsie jumps are fine, its not fine how they influence MU, etc. There are many ways to approach that problems except "make priority system like game X" or "release moar patches". All I tried to to is to highlight these fundamental problems in game design they have. If they want to improve as a game developer, they need to make the game, where these issues do not create such imbalance. Because they are the reason of "tier shifting" everybody has been talking about.

You see, character strength is relative. Relative to other characters. And when on fundamental level tools tend to create such inequality it doesnt matter if you nerf some top character. Imbalance will remain and some lower tier character who can exploit these tools will rise, comparative to others.

 

[EMPEROR PRYCE]

The real problem with MKXL is that it's players would rather post their design docs and bitch about the game rather than accept it for what it is and actually play it.

These people think that every fighter should have a homogenized set of rules that allows this game to play like however their favorite fighter plays. "Footsies" as short hand agenda-pushing for, "this game doesn't play the way I want it to, so it's the game's fault."

MKXL is a game that demands to be taken on its own terms. You'd think after a year the people that evidently do not like it would just stop playing it, but people aren't happy unless they're complaining I guess.

That's why I don't play it, but I believe I also have a right to voice my opinion.

And with a years experience and a few tournament wins (local) under my belt, as well as a 7 year stint with fighting games in general I think my opinion is one that can be taken seriously.

Although, it's understandable why people like this game. It just seems like most people that like the game just the way it is, it's their very first fighting game.