Discussion What characters deserve a few buffs?

[The_REAL_xVAPORx]

This is why TYM needs a dislike button.

Or you could always just state what you dislike about a comment. Kinda the point of a forum.... to discuss, not just disagree.

 

[chrisisnice]

I don't know why Tanya in general is not on this list rather than just DN. Pyro and Kobu are poor variations - things have changed a lot. The common consensus is that she is the worst in the game and her variations are worse than many you listed.

EDIT

I also have no clue why Vicious is there - it is pretty good and the buffs helped a lot
Assassin is arguably her best variation (I personally think Assassin and Royal Storm are equal)

 

[ZYZZBRAH]

Plssss paulo i'm begging for Ancestral buffs!!!!
No mor time in the arrows plsssss, lol lasher is really good, doesn't need anything

 

[Dankster Morgan]

I don't know why Tanya in general is not on this list rather than just DN. Pyro and Kobu are poor variations - things have changed a lot. The common consensus is that she is the worst in the game and her variations are worse than many you listed.

EDIT

I also have no clue why Vicious is there - it is pretty good and the buffs helped a lot
Assassin is arguably her best variation (I personally think Assassin and Royal Storm are equal)

Agree on everything here. I also think Assassin is her best. Kitana is really well rounded overall tho.

 

[EdenianWarrior]

out of curiosity what variations would you buff/adjust/accommodate out of Kenshi, Triborg, BRC, and Tanya?

Tanya-Dragon Naginata and Pyromancer.

 

[EdenianWarrior]

Special forces is literally on the cusp of being stupid broken. As it is, the fact that drone has a timer is the only thing that makes special forces less broke than demo. Anyone suggesting buffs for this variation needs to lab it more. It's not even training mode broke like high tech, it's just regular broke.

In terms of variations that need help:

- Kitana: All variations (Damage buff for mournful, ex fans made +4, Kitana reflect 11 frame startup [down from 15])

- Tanya: All variations (Dust restands in pyro, f3 launches more consistently, damage buff for kobu and pyro, gap removed in b12+4~special, ex Tonfa toss made +4 on block, ex pogo launches really high for to allow consistent combo, overhead option of pogo sped up by 5 frames

- Kung Jin: Ancestral (get rid of arrow timers)

- Jacqui Briggs: High tech (9 frame d4 [down from 14], 7 frame absorb/reflect [down from 11], 13 frame df2 [down from 15])

- Kung Lao: Hatrick (fix his mids)

- Triborg: CSZ, Cyrax and smoke (allow f13, b2 and b3 to combo into ice ball, more advantage on 1112 string, cyrax ex tele launches for combo, [make it as punishable as scorpion's Tele] damage buff for cyrax, net has pre-patch frame advantage, net and bomb allowed in same combo [net causes tech rollable knockdown when expired and puts opponent into an invincible state preventing relaunch] fix smoke's mids )

- Liu Kang: Dualist (stance switch is 2 frames faster, fix combo oddities/inconsistencies, make heal useable [slower startup but much much faster health regen?], make damage buff useable, fix his orb trap corner inconsistencies)

- Kenshi: all variations (ex bf3 hits mid in balanced, balanced db4 is +5 on hit [up from -1], balanced db4 has 5 frames faster start up, balanced ex db4 launches allowing for a bf3 to connect midscreen, balanced ex bf2 is +2 [up from -2], possessed increased meter build, possessed tele 5 frames faster startup [but 5 frames extra whiff recovery], kenjutsu ex df1 recaptures for launch [like Goro punch walk], kenjutsu regular df1 is -7 on block, fix gaps in all kenshi's strings)

- Bo Rai Cho: All variations (triple the distance backdash covers and reduce recovery, slightly faster walk speed)

- Johnny Cage: Fisticuffs (give an ex first bump that recovers instantly)

- Subzero: Unbreakable (sub zero can 'stack' aura buffs [up to 3] that provide more damage/higher launch [eg. 3 buffs would cause regular clone smash to launch for full combo])

- D'Vorah: Venomous and Brood Mother (consistent combos using mb bug blast, venomous specific armour [ex u3])


MOS Raiden, Metalic and Aftershock Tremor and Inferno Scorp probably need some help too but I don't know enough about them to suggest anything.

Characters that don't need any buffs (in any variation):
- Alien
- Cassie cage
- Ermac
- Ferra/Torr
- Jax
- Kotal Khan
- Mileena
- Quan Chi
- Reptile
- Sonya
- Takeda

I'm not sure about dust restand... I think ex shroud stun for combos is better.

 

[YoloRoll1stHit]

- Kitana: All variations (Damage buff for mournful, ex fans made +4, Kitana reflect 11 frame startup [down from 15])

Ex fan +4 is still useless. I would say reasonable and useful buffs would be F1 startup reduced to 12f and reflect buff

Dust restands in pyro, f3 launches more consistently, damage buff for kobu and pyro

These buffs are reasonable but I don't like the concept of turning Pyro into another pressure/mixup/combo character. I like to see more zoning. They can give Pyro a new special move to enter a special stance to make her teleport have invincible frames and her fireballs do more chip damage. So her zoning might be viable again.

 

[EdenianWarrior]

Lol Panic stop, I play Special Forces. It's not on the cusp of being broken but it is strong. What makes you think something as wild as that?

Damn emp stun shot or whatever it's called, abuse it and you win.

 

[EdenianWarrior]

Ex fan +4 is still useless. I would say reasonable and useful buffs would be F1 startup reduced to 12f and reflect buff



These buffs are reasonable but I don't like the concept of turning Pyro into another pressure/mixup/combo character. I like to see more zoning. They can give Pyro a new special move to enter a special stance to make her teleport have invincible frames and her fireballs do more chip damage. So her zoning might be viable again.

I REALLY REALLY WANT Pyro to be a mixup/pressure/combo character.

 

[Harlequin969]

Give Smoke a little nudge here and there. Some scaling adjustments, some consistencies off his 50/50s outside of the corner. It wouldn't take a lot to bring him back to being a proper threat.
Hunter Predator also comes to mind.

 

[STB Shujinkydink]

Why are people listing brood mother instead of venomous? which is her worst variation? Venomous needs help!

 

[Solomon Gorondy]

Watch this video if you don't believe Goro needs buffs.

 

[Pan1cMode]

useless. I would say reasonable and useful buffs would be F1 startup reduced to 12f and reflect buff

I don't know about useless. It means that she's guaranteed a d1 against the entire cast that no-one can poke out of.

This opens up s3 and f1 pressure options as your opponent respects them.

 

[KHTC Takgillo]

Ancestral need a buff but also more scaling on his damage If not he will be shot straight from garbage tier to godteir

 

[myri]

I would like it if Kung Lao had a slightly better back dash and slightly improved forward and back walk speed.

Also maybe a slightly better back dash and forward dash for Bo' Rai Cho.

And if I was being extra greedy maybe a few more plus frames on Kung Lao's ex hat spin on block in tempest, maybe +9 or +10?

Oh yeah and fix hat trick.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Unbreakable's buffs he needs:
1. Ice Parry recovers instantly against projectiles- no reason why it shouldn't.

2. Ice Parry stops jump ins- it would give Unbrekable another layer of defense, making the attacker think twice about bullying him. It wouldn't be broken because if the attacker thinks SZ will parry, they can empty jump in for a full combo punish on the parry.

3. Frozen Aura builds Sub-Zero meter while blocking attacks: think Blood God- The main flaw in Unbrekable's gameplan is that he has no way to build meter, but the game wants him to spend it with weird shit like the EX Slide Aura launcher. Some of the worst meter build in the game, has no block pressure to build, and his specials aren't usable for miter build the same way Grandmaster can Klone, iceball, Klone toss in some situations and matchups to build some meter. Unbreakable doesn't have that, so to build meter he should be left with this improved Aura that gives him a way to build meter and actually gets rewarded for blocking mixups.

4. EX Aura Icy Slide has damage scaling reduced- this is buff that came in the XL patch which gives Unbreakable a second armor launcher in his 9 frame advancing slide. Cool. The issue is that he gets no damage and the bar he spends to do this doesn't accomplish a whole lot, and as discussed in my previous request, he doesn't build bar well at all.

5. He gets a new string off of F4 with a gap in it to bait opponents into getting parried- Right now he has no strings to hunt for parries, if he had a string like this off of F4 then he could force the opponents to guess wether or not to blow up the gap and risk being parried, or let Sub-Zero finish the string. I'd like the proposed string to be around plus 2 because right now Sub-Zero at his core has really negative strings that give up his turn every time. I'm not asking for a Mileena B12 for Sub, but he can't get by using his minus 6 B12 or minus 7 F42. His only plus string is F12 off of his slow F1. He doesn't have a poke faster than 9 frames so after the opponent blocks a string now his only option is get fucked. All of this isn't a horrible problem only if he has the Ice Klone to compensate. This new string would let him get some plus frames, but would have a gap that would allow him to set up a mind game with the parry.

 

[huh]

Unbreakable is an unique variation in this game, that would add to the diversity of gameplay, and deserves a buff to be more used. Specially on his parry

 

[PND OmegaK]

Bo Rai Cho has most votes? You know what to do Paulo.

Bane Rai Cho! Bane Rai Cho! Bane Rai Cho!

 

[Blewdew]

is that genuine? I can't tell for real, at my tournament's, they don't use FT, its all, Mileena, Alien, Johnny, D'Vorah, Kano, Takeda, Sonya, Jax, Ermac, Cassie, Kung Jin, Shinnok, Sub Zero, Reptile, Liu Kang, Kotal Khan, Jacqui Briggs, Predator, Quan Chi. my tournaments version of top tiers to A's. I think there was a few, FT's, and Scorpion, Tremor, Erron Black, Goro, Kung Lao, Jason, Leatherface, Kitana's but they all got knocked out very quick. Don't know what TYM's is, but I haven't seen one thrive to be honest.

FT doesn't have a good representation in general. you can get wins easier with characters that are better and easier to use but ruthless is very strong though. Vicious is probably better than most mid tier variations though they still have the stagger, plus frames, extremely good space control and good damage. Sadly ruthless is better in every aspect expect space control so you probably don't see too many vicious player around

 

[supernumian]

I'm scared about wrong buffs to wrong characters.
I prefer they nerf the best characters.

However, as a Triborg "specialist" (even if I'm not really into competitive) I want some buffs for my beloved cyborg.

Sektor is fine and doesn't need any buffs but some fixes and maybe some of his tools that work a little bit different.
- EX straight rockets can't be ducked and maintain plus frames
- Less speed on EX rocket so you can have an "assist" during pressure
- Flamethrower and EX flamethrower less punishable
- Add some range on his B2

Smoke is fine but needs some adjustment.
- Armor on Ex teleport. Maybe is too much but I think that having just the phase on wakeup, with the strong offensive option of this game is not enough
- more damage on his vortex. Vortex aren't safe so, I think that is more fair that for a huge risk he gain 3-4% damage buff

Cyrax is very hard to balance but I think that he need something
- Armored EX teleport that launch for combo
- EX net that allow to combo after launching a bomb
- EX net has the same duration of pre-patch net to allow some combo
- a 1-2% damage buff on every bombs

Cyber Sub-Zero need some adjustments.
- better startup on his iceball so you can combo on F13, B3 and B1
- more plus frames on some blocked strings using drone
- a 3-4% damage buff

Some of his normals and strings need better plus frames so you can vortex and pressure better using them with all his variations.

I think that these adjustments can make Triborg a better character as a whole but doesn't make him (and all of his variation) OP.

 

[Pan1cMode]

Unbreakable's buffs he needs:
1. Ice Parry recovers instantly against projectiles- no reason why it shouldn't.

2. Ice Parry stops jump ins- it would give Unbrekable another layer of defense, making the attacker think twice about bullying him. It wouldn't be broken because if the attacker thinks SZ will parry, they can empty jump in for a full combo punish on the parry.

3. Frozen Aura negates the opponent's meter build while blocking attacks, and builds SZ small amounts of meter as well- The main flaw in Unbrekable's gameplan is that he has no way to build meter, but the game wants him to spend it with weird shit like the EX Slide Aura launcher. Some of the worst meter build in the game, has no block pressure to build, and his specials aren't usable for miter build the same way Grandmaster can Klone, iceball, Klone toss in some situations and matchups to build some meter. Unbreakable doesn't have that, so to build meter he should be left with this improved Aura that gives him a way to build meter and actually gets rewarded for blocking mixups.

4. EX Aura Icy Slide has damage scaling reduced- this is buff that came in the XL patch which gives Unbreakable a second armor launcher in his 9 frame advancing slide. Cool. The issue is that he gets no damage and the bar he spends to do this doesn't accomplish a whole lot, and as discussed in my previous request, he doesn't build bar well at all.

5. He gets a new string off of F4 with a gap in it to bait opponents into getting parried- Right now he has no strings to hunt for parries, if he had a string like this off of F4 then he could force the opponents to guess wether or not to blow up the gap and risk being parried, or let Sub-Zero finish the string. I'd like the proposed string to be around plus 2 because right now Sub-Zero at his core has really negative strings that give up his turn every time. I'm not asking for a Mileena B12 for Sub, but he can't get by using his minus 6 B12 or minus 7 F42. His only plus string is F12 off of his slow F1. He doesn't have a poke faster than 9 frames so after the opponent blocks a string now his only option is get fucked. All of this isn't a horrible problem only if he has the Ice Klone to compensate. This new string would let him get some plus frames, but would have a gap that would allow him to set up a mind game with the parry.

No way should he be able to parry jump ins. Projectiles maybe, but definitely not jump ins. You want him to have Sonya's x-Ray parry meterless.

Give him ex parry that starts up in 1 frame if you want.

Damage scaling on slide sure, it is steep and shouldn't be that high.

Frozen aura negating meter build? Ahhhh no. You are being pressured, you should suffer some sort of consequence. You want the opponent to build no meter, do no chip damage and for you to build meter in return? Do you understand how silly that sounds?


Again, if he's able to stack aura then he now has a way to maintain plus frames and build meter while potentially increasing his damage (if they allow his aura properties to change with each successive aura stack).

New string is interesting, but with a better ex parry he'd be able to punish gaps in strings and wouldn't need something like that.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

No way should he be able to parry jump ins. Projectiles maybe, but definitely not jump ins. You want him to have Sonya's x-Ray parry meterless.

Give him an ex parry that starts up in 3 frames if you want.

Damage scaling on slide sure, it is steep and shouldn't be that high.

Frozen aura negating meter build? Ahhhh no. You are being pressured, you should suffer some sort of consequence. You want the opponent to build no meter, do no chip damage and for you to build meter in return? Do you understand how silly that sounds?


Again, if he's able to stack aura then he now has a way to maintain plus frames and build meter while potentially increasing his damage (if they allow his aura properties to change with each successive aura stack).

New string is interesting, but with an ex parry he'd be able to punish gaps in strings and wouldn't need something like that.

Why should it stop jump ins? Mileena roll deals with anyone leaving the ground, but Sub would be risking a full combo punish on a missed parry if they did an empty jump. There is nothing wrong with that. Ok sure, point taken, meter build negation is a little much, I'll edit my original post, but I 100% stand my him needing the meter build the same way Blood God does it. Being pressured needing a consequence? There is a still a chance to get mixed, and he will take full damage unless it's EX Aura. I don't like the idea of stacking aura. The EX aura cancels being able to be used frequently would be retarded because F4 EX aura cancel is plus 18, guaranteeing him a 50/50. This is regulated in the current build because he builds meter terribly and the aura can't be shotgunned in rapid succession. B33 EX aura cancel is plus 6 and hit confirmable giving him half of his 50/50 plus on block and hit confirmable. If Sub-Zero had a reliable way to build meter safely and bust out auras rapidly them this could potentially be a problem, and take away from the defensive aspect of Unbreakable in the first place. I like the idea of a 3 frame EX parry.

 

[Youphemism]

50/50 into BLK+2, they poke out they get hit and eat full combo, they block you're hella plus, go for your 50/50 again. You can also use BLK+1 if you're so inclined. They have to respect the d3 so it opens you up for b1.

When BLK+2 is on the screen, it's like Cassie's ex missile. You pretty much have to hold it. Obviously it doesn't work in the middle of a combo. It does provide an easy way to get in. Obviously they're not gonna sit there blocking, but once missile is on the screen, they have to respect it. Your neutral become 1000x better than half the cast because even if you whiff something, three is a missile to combo break if they try and punish.

b1 and f1 are amazingly good footsie tools. Far reaching, fast mid/overhead. Maybe it's because I've come from Jacqui, but I would kill for normals like that.

The unblockable setups aren't really that situational at all and you sacrifice ~5% to go for them over the BLK+4 combos.

X-ray, RUN~b2, 2134 is 47% into knockdown into drone summon midscreen. No need for drone prior. In the corner, you get 52% into the same setup, without drone already active.

SF is not all gimmicks and you know it. You can't jump out of the low kamikaze on reaction because you risk getting hit by BLK+1 or BLK+2. The ridiculous plus frames came from both BLK+4 and BLK+2. This isn't high tech "she's broken because of a super situational block infinite and it's not like she's actually gonna ever get to touch you anyway because lol trex limbs, poor footsies and no pokes", this is SF sonya with an already very powerful base set of normals with drone that gives her some really amazing tools.

I honestly think SF is only a small bit behind demo and definitely better than covert ops.

This also isn't me just theorycrafting after going into the lab and seeing what she can do. I've done this in games before. It's definitely applicable and not in the realm of high tech Jacqui (which btw, I still think is semi-viable, at lest in some matchups.)

50/50 inbto BLK+2 isn't plus, anyone who knows the matchup should be uppercutting you out of that for a good trade. They can also armour out of almost all of it.

That's the thing, you don't have to hold it, nor do you have to hold Cassie's missile. If you throw them or uppercut them they win that trade. It's not an easy way to get in because they can still do what they want like zone or use moves to keep you out. Noone should be scared to trade with a 5% projectile that knocks down, 5% projectiles are why Cybernetic isn't an amazing zoner.

Going from Jacqui makes anyones neutral seem good lol. And there are more than a few characters with a better neutral than her be it walkspeed or range/speed on their advancing moves.

I mean the hard to blockables are pretty situational, you need to place them at the right space and hope the opponent doesn't jump/armour/poke out.

High damaging xray combos are not Special Forces specific though, 47% xray combos are a thing I guess but it's not above average.

I didn't say it was all gimmicks, why even being that up as a point? I don't think you get what I mean when I say on reaction because BLK+1 and BLK+2 are faster, you can literally see BLK+4 coming out so you can do something about it on reaction. Yes BLK+4 has "ridiculous plus frames" but it doesn't matter if someone just backdashes it or jumps out of it or armours it.

I agree that SF isn't that far behind Demolition and is better than Covert Ops.

Doing it in matches doesn't mean anything, especially when it's clear a majority of the community have no idea how to handle the matchup. The problem is you're really exaggerating how strong SF is and I think that comes down to playing people that don't know the matchup. It's cool you're interested in the variation, I still think BLK+2 is one of the best space control tools in the game and is the whole reason I picked up the variation however long ago now, but she's really not on the cusp of being broken. She just has some good tools and that's fine, solid A/A+ tier for sure.

 

[Kamikaze_Highlander]

I play special forces.

Safe 50/50 into plus into another 50/50 into plus. You have like 5-10 seconds to continue mixing up your opponent until they guess wrong and when they do you get a full combo into a drone call to repeat the situation.

You have a free combo breaker with BLK+2, hard-to-blockables and armour breaking setups from 50/50s in the corner, great neutral with b1, divekick and f1, decent midscreen damage, 47% x-Ray combos, decent zoning/counter zoning, easy way to get in, ridiculous plus frames; this variation doesn't need anything.


Lackey is arguably Ferra/Torr's best variation. It needs no buffs lol.

Nah, Ruthless has it beat by a good handful of miles: damage, pressure, and range are all far superior. In another game maybe Lackey would be top tier. But in a game like MKX Ferra provides far too much versatility and she alone provides the counters to a lot of the cast. I don't think these buffs would break the character or make Ruthless/Vicious any less viable. Currently at full screen the opponent is free to do whatever they fuck they want(imo this is really unbalanced, maybe if there was less zoning oriented characters in the game it would be too bad) and I can't think of any other character that have 0 presence full screen.

Also the character NEEDS a buff to their backdash. I'm not talking Kano or quan levels. But the amount of recovery on ours is fucking ridiculous. Backdashing out of pressure ends up us just giving our opponent a free whiff punish.