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What changes to MK11 would make the meta exciting?,

Have a ranked mode with custom variations allowed. Maybe its own KL. This way the regular ranked/KL isn’t effected.
This.

I would also like a permanent ranked mode (similar to SFV’s ranked mode). There doesn’t need to be any rewards (in fact, I think I’d prefer there not to be) and just let people grind for months/years to climb the ranks. I think you’d get a good pool of people looking for good matches to take seriously, and would help a lot of players improve at the game.

It would certainly need points/tiers to be altered though. You should lose points if you lose in any rank (unless you’re at 0), and there may even need to be sub tiers (Warrior, Ultimate Warrior (lol), etc)

Not sure if this should be with set variations or customs (or switch it on a toggle) but I’d really like to see this. I played SFV for years because of this feature alone... I only stopped because they pooched the netcode and made it even worse.
 

Marlow

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Care to elaborate? Anyone can make an empty statement, but can they explain why things work/don't work?
It's a lot to go over. Most of your suggestions are highly subjective, like your #3 about chip damage. Chip damage kills and DOT kills have been a part of MK for awhile. Having it in the game is neither good nor bad, it's just how MK does it. It'd be like asking MK to get rid of their dial-a-combo system for something more like Street Fighter, or asking KI to get rid of their Combo Breaker system. This would apply to 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 8, 10, 11, and 12. I don't think those changes would make the meta more exciting, it would just change who finds the meta exciting.

For 7 and 9, NRS already tries to do those things, but the nature of fighting games means things like option selects and hitbox/hurtbox issues are always going to exist.

Number 6 just doesn't make any sense. The whole point of D1 is to have a quick, point blank move to try and steal back your turn or interrupt the opponent. If you take away the plus frames, it's meaningless. Pretty much every fighting game has a D1 type move that grants plus frames.
 
I don't know about more "exciting", but here are a couple things I would change:
  • Fatal Blows are one-and-done, and leave your opponent with ridiculous advantage, and are not armored. I mean, Fatal Blows give you access to a high damage combo that requires no execution, some of which with hit fullscreen. I can't comprehend why they also have to be armored, have pushback to make you safe, and then come back if you whiff it. And also cost nothing.
  • I'd make throws not 50/50s anymore. I understand that there's a mind game element to it in some situations, but I feel that on the whole it makes the game worse. I think going for a throw should be riskier in general. I know taking away the 50/50 element doesn't make them riskier per se, but it's at least a start to make them not such a go-to option. Oh, I also hate that I can roll away and you can still throw me. I spent a defensive bar, and you can choose to just press a button to negate the benefit I get there and do damage to me without costing you anything.
For exciting changes, while over time I've come to decide I don't really like the variation system, I think as long as it's here they should go nuts with it. I appreciate how difficult it would be to playtest, but it would be cool to have custom variations with new moves that get added regularly that open up a little more individuality.
 

Marlow

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Oh, I also hate that I can roll away and you can still throw me. I spent a defensive bar, and you can choose to just press a button to negate the benefit I get there and do damage to me without costing you anything.

The opponent is taking a big risk though. If they go for a throw anticipating you to roll and you choose not to roll you get to blow them up hard.
 
For exciting changes, while over time I've come to decide I don't really like the variation system, I think as long as it's here they should go nuts with it. I appreciate how difficult it would be to playtest, but it would be cool to have custom variations with new moves that get added regularly that open up a little more individuality.
Yeah, I’m not a huge fan of the variation system. I liked it in X, but I don’t think it was implemented the best here (some variations seem random, a lot seem very limited, there aren’t different looks/loadouts for the different variations, etc).

I really hope they allow customs in KL/tournaments at some point, and next time, just scrap it altogether. Next time, just have complete, fun characters.
 

Marlow

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Premium Supporter
Yeah, I’m not a huge fan of the variation system. I liked it in X, but I don’t think it was implemented the best here (some variations seem random, a lot seem very limited, there aren’t different looks/loadouts for the different variations, etc).

I really hope they allow customs in KL/tournaments at some point, and next time, just scrap it altogether. Next time, just have complete, fun characters.
I think the variation system works just fine in MK11. It adds some nice variety to characters but I'd like to see it removed from future games because it seems to create more animosity than goodwill. It just ends up as another thing for people to complain about. The same people will likely still complain in MK12 that their character feels "incomplete" but least they won't be able to blame it on the variation system. It's basically an ignorance is bliss situation.
 
I think the variation system works just fine in MK11. It adds some nice variety to characters but I'd like to see it removed from future games because it seems to create more animosity than goodwill. It just ends up as another thing for people to complain about. The same people will likely still complain in MK12 that their character feels "incomplete" but least they won't be able to blame it on the variation system. It's basically an ignorance is bliss situation.
I definitely understand the idea that because we know custom variations are a thing and we see moves that we can’t use, we assume that every pre-set variation is limited, but I can’t help but feel that’s not the case all of the time.

I think Sindel has great tournament variations. Yes, she doesn’t have a projectile in all of them, etc, but each one seems very tailored to a specific style of play, and while I haven’t dabbled with all of the cast yet (just came back after like a year off), a few of them don’t seem so coherent to me, which makes it feel limited because it’s like, okay, you wanted this to be their mixup variation (Sub’s V1) but then took away their low special, etc.
 

Marlow

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I've mainly played Raiden, and I think he's a decent example of the variation system done well. Thunderwave has decent mobility because of the teleport, and has the easy combo tool and corner carry with Storm Cell and Electric Fly. Raijin is a lot more defensive, with some better safety. Truth & Light is useless, but I at least see what they were going for, they just executed it poorly. But either way, Raijin and Thunderwave both compliment each other pretty well, and help cover their respective bad matchups.

For the most part I think the system works similar across the rest of the cast. There's some odd choices or poor execution here or there, but for the most part they seem like the type of issues that would be present in a fighting game regardless of variations being in the game or not. Even if MK11 didn't have the variation system and just had one version of each character it's not like that version would have access to every single special move listed, it would likely mean that there'd simply be one variation of each character. So instead of choosing between Thunderwave and Raijin, there'd just be Thunderwave.
 
I've mainly played Raiden, and I think he's a decent example of the variation system done well. Thunderwave has decent mobility because of the teleport, and has the easy combo tool and corner carry with Storm Cell and Electric Fly. Raijin is a lot more defensive, with some better safety. Truth & Light is useless, but I at least see what they were going for, they just executed it poorly. But either way, Raijin and Thunderwave both compliment each other pretty well, and help cover their respective bad matchups.

For the most part I think the system works similar across the rest of the cast. There's some odd choices or poor execution here or there, but for the most part they seem like the type of issues that would be present in a fighting game regardless of variations being in the game or not. Even if MK11 didn't have the variation system and just had one version of each character it's not like that version would have access to every single special move listed, it would likely mean that there'd simply be one variation of each character. So instead of choosing between Thunderwave and Raijin, there'd just be Thunderwave.
Well then, i have nothing to say lol. Good point.
 
The opponent is taking a big risk though. If they go for a throw anticipating you to roll and you choose not to roll you get to blow them up hard.
Yeah fair enough. I'm probably wrong here and just salty that I get caught by this so often.
 

grandabx

The Flameater
It's a lot to go over. Most of your suggestions are highly subjective, like your #3 about chip damage. Chip damage kills and DOT kills have been a part of MK for awhile. Having it in the game is neither good nor bad, it's just how MK does it. It'd be like asking MK to get rid of their dial-a-combo system for something more like Street Fighter, or asking KI to get rid of their Combo Breaker system. This would apply to 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 8, 10, 11, and 12. I don't think those changes would make the meta more exciting, it would just change who finds the meta exciting.

For 7 and 9, NRS already tries to do those things, but the nature of fighting games means things like option selects and hitbox/hurtbox issues are always going to exist.

Number 6 just doesn't make any sense. The whole point of D1 is to have a quick, point blank move to try and steal back your turn or interrupt the opponent. If you take away the plus frames, it's meaningless. Pretty much every fighting game has a D1 type move that grants plus frames.
MK has changed many times (regenerating meters, breakaways, ect.). I've only chose what's already in the game to improve on.

Having something be "traditional" doesn't mean it's immune to the question of improvement. Chip damage done by normal attacks and DOT attacks that kill on their own are absolutely counter-productive to a game supposedly based around "skilled" neutral. Chip shouldn't be wrecklessly acheived. With special attacks being how chip primarily happens, it requires more effort/planning than mashing when on low health.

Fast attacks having plus frames is fine, but should make sense like being based on character archetypes, like a grappler that has a hard time getting in.

MK 11 in general has a lot of "just do it" moves.
 

623HS

Noob
MK has changed many times (regenerating meters, breakaways, ect.). I've only chose what's already in the game to improve on.

Having something be "traditional" doesn't mean it's immune to the question of improvement. Chip damage done by normal attacks and DOT attacks that kill on their own are absolutely counter-productive to a game supposedly based around "skilled" neutral. Chip shouldn't be wrecklessly acheived. With special attacks being how chip primarily happens, it requires more effort/planning than mashing when on low health.

Fast attacks having plus frames is fine, but should make sense like being based on character archetypes, like a grappler that has a hard time getting in.

MK 11 in general has a lot of "just do it" moves.
Eh i wouldn't quite say the game is neutral based. the only 2d fgs i can think of with less neauch than mk11 are probably the US fgs beside injustice(mk9 and x, new Ki, ponies:REO, skullgirls and bftg), an old shitty airdasher called hnk and OCCASIONALLY bb, never played mahvel so I dunno.
 

John Grizzly

The axe that clears the forest
Premium Supporter
Even if MK11 didn't have the variation system and just had one version of each character it's not like that version would have access to every single special move listed, it would likely mean that there'd simply be one variation of each character. So instead of choosing between Thunderwave and Raijin, there'd just be Thunderwave.
I have an honest question here.

NRS over the past two MK games have been incredibly creative as far as coming up with special moves/etc. for character. Do you really think that if they released MK11 with no variations that Raiden would be as basic as his Thunder Wave loadout? You'd have to believe that they'd incorporate some of the other cool ideas they came up with. A mix of Thunder Wave, Raijin and Truth and Light would actually be fun. I don't see much of an issue with characters having a ton of variety and options in their moveset as long as that goes for all characters.

Characters in MK9 felt much more complete than they do in MK11. Sub Zero is an excellent example of that.
 

Marlow

Premium
Premium Supporter
@John Grizzly
I think if there were no variations Raiden would be 90% Thunderwave, and then they might add in a few other moves like Electric Burst and Summon Lightening. I'm not sure they'd add in moves like Jo Push, Quick Charge, Electric Current, or his Lightening Rod. Again though, I feel like both Thunderwave and Raijin are complete characters that compliment each other well.


You make a good point, the variation system can lead to more basic but specialized characters, which isn't everybody's jam. I'm fine if they decide to scrap the variation system, I wouldn't mind giving it a rest and seeing what they do given just one character slot to work with.

I never played MK9, so I don't really have a way to compare MK11 to it. I will say though, just looking at Raiden's move list from MK9 and comparing it to Thunderwave, Thunderwave basically has everything MK9 Raiden has and more.
 

John Grizzly

The axe that clears the forest
Premium Supporter
@John Grizzly
I think if there were no variations Raiden would be 90% Thunderwave, and then they might add in a few other moves like Electric Burst and Summon Lightening. I'm not sure they'd add in moves like Jo Push, Quick Charge, Electric Current, or his Lightening Rod. Again though, I feel like both Thunderwave and Raijin are complete characters that compliment each other well.


You make a good point, the variation system can lead to more basic but specialized characters, which isn't everybody's jam. I'm fine if they decide to scrap the variation system, I wouldn't mind giving it a rest and seeing what they do given just one character slot to work with.

I never played MK9, so I don't really have a way to compare MK11 to it. I will say though, just looking at Raiden's move list from MK9 and comparing it to Thunderwave, Thunderwave basically has everything MK9 Raiden has and more.
Brady put out a great video explaining how complete characters felt in MK9. Sub Zero was his latest example. Let me see if I can find it....


Sub-Zero used so many moves and strings in different situations.

He also recently did one on Raiden that showcased some of the things he could do in MK9:


Both really interesting videos, even if you never played MK9. I can still watch this stuff to this day and thoroughly enjoy it.
 

Marlow

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He also recently did one on Raiden that showcased some of the things he could do in MK9
That was a cool video, thanks for sharing. One thing I found interesting though is pretty much everything he showed as Raiden in MK9 seemed to be things Raiden can do in MK11 as well. I think Tom put it best when he said that similar concepts exist in all three games, they're just executed differently.
 
Brady put out a great video explaining how complete characters felt in MK9. Sub Zero was his latest example. Let me see if I can find it....


Sub-Zero used so many moves and strings in different situations.
Completely off-topic, but I have a soft spot for Sub-Zero (my favourite character as a kid) but I thought he was really boring in this game... However, this video made me curious enough to look up Avalanche Trap setups and this guy is dirty AF, lol. I didn’t want to be another annoying Sub online, but he suddenly looked like one of the most fun characters to me, so I may have to lol
 

supernumian

Triborg Enthusiast
I was thinking a lot on how to make MK11 a little bit more exciting then now.
My answer is: fuse the single variations in a full character.

It sounds crazy on paper, some character can be broken or too strong but if we see the full picture, all the character can have much more layer of playing and people can express themself and their style much better then now.
Of course this need a full rework of some specials and a huge balance patch from NRS and that never happen.

Imagine a character like Frost with:
  • Microburst special to extend combos
  • all the zoning special
  • the head bomb from Frost-byte
  • the anti-zoning dive bomb and powering up the core from Arctic Anarchy
Fujin can have:
  • sky wakka from Kloud Walker
  • all the specials from Downburst
  • the air slam from Cyclone
... and so on.
That's my crazy idea.
 
I like the idea of merging the varations. I also like the idea of giving each character more base strings/specials to shake up the game. Every other fighter does this with major updates... i wonder if they are that afraid to shake up the balance
 
Yeah fair enough. I'm probably wrong here and just salty that I get caught by this so often.
Think of it like a rock, paper, scissors type of situation, and throw covers roll. It's simply the direct counter to that decision, whereas rolling normally beats the decision to strike with something threatening.

Meanwhile both U2 and U3 on wakeup beat throws.