Was I right about Killer Frost?

[WakeUp DP]

Who cares? MKX RIP Inj.

 

[Madog32]

...I provided accurate relevant information when needed...

I restrained from posting as long as I could, mostly to avoid getting alerts from this stupid thread, but seriously...

EDIT: Does anyone know how to STOP watching a thread for alerts? It would be much appreciated. Thanks!

 

[THTB]

Myles was Right.

Stop feeding. This ain't no League of Legends.

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

Stop feeding. This ain't no League of Legends.

I do actually think he is right though.

 

[16 Bit]

Catwoman > Killer Frost?

 

[xInfra Deadx]

I restrained from posting as long as I could, mostly to avoid getting alerts from this stupid thread, but seriously...

EDIT: Does anyone know how to STOP watching a thread for alerts? It would be much appreciated. Thanks!

The Unwatch thread option should be on the top right of the page.

 

[xKhaoTik]

I'm not referring to day one I am referring to the final patch of Injustice being done and dusted and somehow the Killer Frost community still believing the character is Top 5 up until recently when like you, they refuse to admit that I was correct the entire time and instead try to argue their point on old data that couldn't be any less relevant.
The Killer Frost match-up discussion thread currently lists her as having 2 bad match-ups which are only 4-6.. to some extent I still believe that you guys were not playing the game because when I was getting blown up by Harley's b2 pre-patch.. and then Khaotik gets destroyed by it and on here it was 6-4 Killer Frost? this is when I knew Killer Frost players did not know what they were talking about and this is applicable to pretty much every Killer Frost match-up

Uh, when did I get destroyed by Harley's b2? From what I remember, I've only played one Harley in tournament, which was Saltface, and he won 2-1 by the skin of his teeth. How is that getting destroyed? And I've been saying that match was 5-5 since last year, idk why it still says 6-4.

Also, no one thinks she has "2" bad MUs. She has at least 4, losing to WW, HG, Cyborg and MMH. Stop lying by saying we still have her 7-3ing everyone when he constantly said she has no 7-3 except for Doomsday(maybe).

I could've sworn you were preaching how bad she was, how unviable she was, how everyone in the game was better than her, blah blah blah, and now you say she's mid tier? What changed your mind? Did you finally level up and get an understanding of the character? Did you finally listen to some of us?

I personally don't think she's top 10, but at the same time, she can hang with everyone in the cast and is still a damn good character. If you were trash with her, then that's fine, but don't come on here trying to convince us how trash she is just because you can't win a MU with her if your life depended on it. Its been a year of this shit man, shut the fuck up and give it a rest already.

O, and no, you were very wrong and your life is still disqualified.

Bye Felicia.

 

[Drecker]

Myles was Right.

SOUNDS ODDLY FAMILIAR.

GAWWWWWD.

 

[SaltShaker]

Yeah we disagree completely. I mean obviously players are going to pick characters they feel are good or have potential, but tournament results are more about the players (especially in more balanced games). There are several great characters in this game that are viable and can win tournaments. From what I see as your viewpoint, basically anyone who watches a stream should never even try out a character that isn't represented because those are the only top characters available since the other ones are not represented. So you would potentially have a bunch of un-touched characters who haven't been fully explored and you could miss a hidden gem.

I believe in breaking down a characters tools and matchups to determine if a character is good or not, but I think going off tournament results and saying that they themselves impact if a character is good or not is completely ludicrous. There are too many variables going on when people are playing each other, and you don't get an objective enough view of the characters. I understand that it watching tournaments makes it easy to immediately associate great characters with high placements, but it is fundamentally the absolute wrong way to look at it.

How can it be only about the players? There's a reason why Cyborg isn't winning majors while Aquaman and MMH are. Yes it takes a top player to bring out the best in a character, but then it becomes the character also. Only speaking from my Tekken tournament history, as much as I may have "wanted" to play Asuka, I stuck with Bryan Fury and Julia Chang for four iterations of the game because they were the best characters that went with my skillset to compete at the highest level. As much as i wanted to play a high level Nina i just couldn't, she didn't fit me. If Jupiter went back to Superman today i'd doubt he'd replicate any of success he's had the last few months for the next year. If Theo dropped Aquaman and Superman for Harley and Green Arrow I doubt he'd have the same success. Characters always matter.

Which brings us to Frost. IF she was as good as claimed at each point, she would have had more representation. Players want to win, and no way a character as good as she was claimed to have been, while everyone knew "her potential", just sat there underused. This isn't MMH or Zod released as DLC so a lot of pros didnt want to switch. Or a Hilde from Soul Calibur where everyone thought she was garbage and underused till her tech broke the game. This is a day 1 release character supposedly always as good as the top tiers until recently, yet was massively unrepresented in comparison and had minimal tourney results. Characters aren't left underused because they're "so good", its usually because they aren't as good compared to other characters or are overrated, in this case a little of both.

She may have had "top 5" potential with the original cancels, potential that was never put in action, but since then she has been nothing more than a middle of the road mid tier advertised as a high upper mid. I would place her at the bottom of the Top 15 at best, but the "Top 20" is where i personally land her. Which isn't bad in a game like this, but it isn't "high upper mid".

Just looking at the cast, I'd easily place AM, Bane, Batgirl, Batman, BA, DS, DD, Flash, GL, Lobo, MMH, Raven, Sinestro, Superman, WW, Zatanna, Zod. That's 17 characters I'd say are better. Is this wrong? Who would you remove? She's more around the Lex/Hawkgirl alley than the "high upper mid" alley. Explains her lack of representation imo.

Frost reminds me of the guy everyone knows in life that talks about what he could've done but it wasn't his fault that it didn't turn out that way.

 

[RNLDRGN]

How many times can this moron make the same thread? How are you not banned?

 

[RiBBz22]

How can it be only about the players? There's a reason why Cyborg isn't winning majors while Aquaman and MMH are. Yes it takes a top player to bring out the best in a character, but then it becomes the character also. Only speaking from my Tekken tournament history, as much as I may have "wanted" to play Asuka, I stuck with Bryan Fury and Julia Chang for four iterations of the game because they were the best characters that went with my skillset to compete at the highest level. As much as i wanted to play a high level Nina i just couldn't, she didn't fit me. If Jupiter went back to Superman today i'd doubt he'd replicate any of success he's had the last few months for the next year. If Theo dropped Aquaman and Superman for Harley and Green Arrow I doubt he'd have the same success. Characters always matter.

Which brings us to Frost. IF she was as good as claimed at each point, she would have had more representation. Players want to win, and no way a character as good as she was claimed to have been, while everyone knew "her potential", just sat there underused. This isn't MMH or Zod released as DLC so a lot of pros didnt want to switch. Or a Hilde from Soul Calibur where everyone thought she was garbage and underused till her tech broke the game. This is a day 1 release character supposedly always as good as the top tiers until recently, yet was massively unrepresented in comparison and had minimal tourney results. Characters aren't left underused because they're "so good", its usually because they aren't as good compared to other characters or are overrated, in this case a little of both.

She may have had "top 5" potential with the original cancels, potential that was never put in action, but since then she has been nothing more than a middle of the road mid tier advertised as a high upper mid. I would place her at the bottom of the Top 15 at best, but the "Top 20" is where i personally land her. Which isn't bad in a game like this, but it isn't "high upper mid".

Just looking at the cast, I'd easily place AM, Bane, Batgirl, Batman, BA, DS, DD, Flash, GL, Lobo, MMH, Raven, Sinestro, Superman, WW, Zatanna, Zod. That's 17 characters I'd say are better. Is this wrong? Who would you remove? She's more around the Lex/Hawkgirl alley than the "high upper mid" alley. Explains her lack of representation imo.

Frost reminds me of the guy everyone knows in life that talks about what he could've done but it wasn't his fault that it didn't turn out that way.

You are missing the point of my argument, the reason why Cyborg is not winning tournaments is probably because he isn't a good character looking at the factors surrounding the game not vice-versa. I.E. The fact that he is not being playing in tournaments does not make him a bad character, his tools and matchups do. It has nothing to do with tournament performance.

As for her representation I agree that more people should probably be playing her since she is very good, however I also think that Injustice is a very balanced game that has a ton of characters that are completely viable unlike a lot of other games this community has had to play in the past. So in that sense you can play who you want since they all have a great amount of dirt to them in different ways. One of the reasons I considered in the past for Frost not being represented more besides her general seemingly lower popularity, was that I think in many people's eyes she was due to get nerfed much harder than she did so it scared people away long enough to the point where broken stuff was being found with most of the top tier. Using your logic everyone would be playing MMH because they want to win, but that simply is not happening which another reason why you are wrong.

From your list I would remove DS, Doomsday, Lobo, Raven, Zatanna. However, I have stated a bunch of times on here I think this game is too hard to break down into a long numbered list. I think that MMH, AM, Zod, and probably Batgirl are in the highest tiers, and then you have a huge list between high and upper-mid that are all around the same level. It isn't as black and white as KF can't lose to the chars I removed from your list and she can't beat the people remaining on the list. In fact she does well against several of them like AM, and Sinestro for example.

Also, hopefully you don't feel like I am attacking you. I am enjoying our discussion even though we respectfully disagree with each other.

 

[Espio]

well damn that makes 1 #stilltoptierdoe

Hawkgirl beats her 6-4, but that doesn't make her bad or overrated cause she loses to a couple characters.

I dunno about top tier, but she seems solid enough.

 

[@MylesWright_]

pop off attempt

I've been the voice of the voiceless and the only person that doubted the accuracy of the Killer Frost forums. You guys were wrong and sadly you have to hold that

 

[Laos_boy]

.

Catwoman > Killer Frost?

@MKKI_CDjr I agree catwoman is stupid shes what killerfrost wants to be
From PL

 

[MagicMan357]

Great now the troll even made a thread...

 

[Fred Marvel]

Hawkgirl beats her 6-4, but that doesn't make her bad or overrated cause she loses to a couple characters.

I dunno about top tier, but she seems solid enough.

oh okay so she does have a few losing matchups, eh if anyone bothers to perfect that guaranteed reset everyone will see shes top tier lol or close to it, shes above the mid tiers though

 

[RiBBz22]

Hawkgirl beats her 6-4, but that doesn't make her bad or overrated cause she loses to a couple characters.

I dunno about top tier, but she seems solid enough.

5-5 come at me bro

But yeah if 5-5's didn't exist I would say HG has the edge for sure

 

[THTB]

Bye Felicia.

 

[Espio]

5-5 come at me bro

But yeah if 5-5's didn't exist I would say HG has the edge for sure

Maan Ryan don't even.....it's not even lol.


Let's break this down. Killer Frost is a character with a strong ground game, but is lacking when it comes to air control, Hawkgirl is the queen of air control and mobility. Killer Frost's jump normals are pretty slow. Hawkgirl doesn't have to deal with iceberg, daggers or slide most of the time by virtue of her trait. Hawkgirl sets the pace of the match up and can zone and use her mobility extremely well versus Killer Frost.


What does Killer Frost take away from Hawkgirl to make it 5-5? In order for a match up to be even, both characters should provide equal checks and balances to each other and I do not see it.


Killer Frost's Parry: Hawkgirl has at least five options to counter it that are either safe or plus on block. Wing evade 2 leads to over 30% midscreen and in the corner it can lead to 40+ into a divekick knockdown and even if you block wing evade 2 I'm plus four so I'm still sitting pretty. Then there's Mace charge, wing evade 3, and throw to name some others. Sweep is minus 9 or eight, but it's a mix up into a hard knockdown that you probably will just eat to avoid the overhead wing evade 2.

I have to think more with my pressure versus killer Frost, but honestly I don't really have to be rushing down much and even if Killer Frost has a life lead, it's not hard for Hawkgirl to come back on her.

And if the Killer Frost player keeps dashing away from mace toss zoning, that's also fine because you're just pushing yourself to the corner where mace tosses won't miss and if I do get a good read on my approach I'm taking half life in the corner into potential oki afterward.


Damage or a vortex alone is not enough to make it even, if that were true Grundy would go even with Hawkgirl.

 

[DarkPage]

Give this man his due!

 

[RiBBz22]

Maan Ryan don't even.....it's not even lol.


Let's break this down. Killer Frost is a character with a strong ground game, but is lacking when it comes to air control, Hawkgirl is the queen of air control and mobility. Killer Frost's jump normals are pretty slow. Hawkgirl doesn't have to deal with iceberg, daggers or slide most of the time by virtue of her trait. Hawkgirl sets the pace of the match up and can zone and use her mobility extremely well versus Killer Frost.


What does Killer Frost take away from Hawkgirl to make it 5-5? In order for a match up to be even, both characters should provide equal checks and balances to each other and I do not see it.


Killer Frost's Parry: Hawkgirl has at least five options to counter it that are either safe or plus on block. Wing evade 2 leads to over 30% midscreen and in the corner it can lead to 40+ into a divekick knockdown and even if you block wing evade 2 I'm plus four so I'm still sitting pretty. Then there's Mace charge, wing evade 3, and throw to name some others. Sweep is minus 9 or eight, but it's a mix up into a hard knockdown that you probably will just eat to avoid the overhead wing evade 2.

I have to think more with my pressure versus killer Frost, but honestly I don't really have to be rushing down much and even if Killer Frost has a life lead, it's not hard for Hawkgirl to come back on her.

And if the Killer Frost player keeps dashing away from mace toss zoning, that's also fine because you're just pushing yourself to the corner where mace tosses won't miss and if I do get a good read on my approach I'm taking half life in the corner into potential oki afterward.


Damage or a vortex alone is not enough to make it even, if that were true Grundy would go even with Hawkgirl.

Hawkgirl has several advantages going into this MU because of her character design. I have ALWAYS said that KF has had issues with HG as I had it listed as a potential bad MU at the start of the game back when KF had her damage and trait cancels due to the design alone. With that said, I have never felt uncomfortable in the MU so I have always listed it as a 5-5. I think that KF wins the oki game pretty heavily and has to hit Hawkgirl in general way fewer times than HG has to hit KF. I understand your options to get around parry, but you are downplaying how it effects the MU in my opinion. I understand HG is very safe on block, but it is more about how we read and react to what you will do because of the parry's threat. I don't care about on block frame data in the MU, I care about whiff data. KF players need to play this MU defensively and capitalize on the HG player's abuse of some things that they do. Maybe I will suck it up and plug my ps3 back in and suffer through the non-PC experience so we can get some more games in and maybe you can open my eyes.

I agree if anything it is her advantage like I said earlier and countless times before, but I just don't think it is far enough away from even to change the chart.

 

[SaltShaker]

You are missing the point of my argument, the reason why Cyborg is not winning tournaments is probably because he isn't a good character looking at the factors surrounding the game not vice-versa. I.E. The fact that he is not being playing in tournaments does not make him a bad character, his tools and matchups do. It has nothing to do with tournament performance.

As for her representation I agree that more people should probably be playing her since she is very good, however I also think that Injustice is a very balanced game that has a ton of characters that are completely viable unlike a lot of other games this community has had to play in the past. So in that sense you can play who you want since they all have a great amount of dirt to them in different ways. One of the reasons I considered in the past for Frost not being represented more besides her general seemingly lower popularity, was that I think in many people's eyes she was due to get nerfed much harder than she did so it scared people away long enough to the point where broken stuff was being found with most of the top tier. Using your logic everyone would be playing MMH because they want to win, but that simply is not happening which another reason why you are wrong.

From your list I would remove DS, Doomsday, Lobo, Raven, Zatanna. However, I have stated a bunch of times on here I think this game is too hard to break down into a long numbered list. I think that MMH, AM, Zod, and probably Batgirl are in the highest tiers, and then you have a huge list between high and upper-mid that are all around the same level. It isn't as black and white as KF can't lose to the chars I removed from your list and she can't beat the people remaining on the list. In fact she does well against several of them like AM, and Sinestro for example.

Also, hopefully you don't feel like I am attacking you. I am enjoying our discussion even though we respectfully disagree with each other.

Nah man definitely don't feel attacked. One of the best opposite end discussions I've had here. With that being said-

I used Cyborg because he is bad in too many MU's, not nearly close to KF of course, but bad in his own way and he's underused because of his weaknesses. I feel KF is in the same boat. I do agree that her popularity as a comic character had a lot to do with her low pick up initially, but after a month or two people want to win and will play with characters they detest from comics. I think realistically a lot of it was "potential that never showed" as opposed to what she actually could do in-game consistently, and pro gamers aren't going to invest in that sometimes. But those are things we'll never truly know.

Fast forward to June 2014 and you have a character being called "high tier" or "upper mid" based on what? To me that sounds like borderline top 10 talk, but what can she do compared to the top 10 that is even close in comparison? She doesn't really do anything amazing like they do. It feels like a HUGE gap between the top 10 and KF, which doesn't feel like the ranking she is consistently given. Also, a strong part of why MMH isn't more popular is because he was released so late into the scene. I know he is the best, but if my Raven was at top tier level I wouldn't drop her because I've learned too much in MU's, set ups, etc etc. A lot of gamers feel this way. KF on the other hand was a Day 1, and out of all the "this character is soooo good" ones, she was and is by far the least used. Probably because she isn't as good as advertised.

DD tourney results consistently with different users throughout all patches automatically ranks him higher than Frost. My Raven opinion is too bias to answer. I think Lobo played at the highest level is slightly better. DS and Zatanna I can see the other side. Even with all your removals that doesn't sound like high, it's upper mid.

You say the gap between upper mid and high is small, "around the same level" as you put it, so KF fitting in either is basically apples and oranges. But do you reallyyyyy feel that the gap between KF and Flash, KF and Bane, or KF and WW is small? Feels like a clear and decisive gap to me. She can't be high if WW, Bane and Flash are high.

Lastly, what is it that she does in the majority of her play that you think makes her so good? She doesn't have many losing MU's, but not many winning ones either. She feels underpowered against certain supposedly 5-5 MU's and losing the stage select instantly makes it no longer 5-5 in some cases. Only real strengths it seems like she has in the majority of her MU's is being one of the least meter using characters and obviously vortex set ups. What else makes her not just good, but "upper mid" or "high" in comparison to the characters in that category?

 

[DevilMaySpy]

Uh, when did I get destroyed by Harley's b2? From what I remember, I've only played one Harley in tournament, which was Saltface, and he won 2-1 by the skin of his teeth. How is that getting destroyed? And I've been saying that match was 5-5 since last year, idk why it still says 6-4.

Also, no one thinks she has "2" bad MUs. She has at least 4, losing to WW, HG, Cyborg and MMH. Stop lying by saying we still have her 7-3ing everyone when he constantly said she has no 7-3 except for Doomsday(maybe).

I could've sworn you were preaching how bad she was, how unviable she was, how everyone in the game was better than her, blah blah blah, and now you say she's mid tier? What changed your mind? Did you finally level up and get an understanding of the character? Did you finally listen to some of us?

I personally don't think she's top 10, but at the same time, she can hang with everyone in the cast and is still a damn good character. If you were trash with her, then that's fine, but don't come on here trying to convince us how trash she is just because you can't win a MU with her if your life depended on it. Its been a year of this shit man, shut the fuck up and give it a rest already.

O, and no, you were very wrong and your life is still disqualified.

Bye Felicia.

 

[Obs_SmSwag]

I feel like the 60% who voted that Frost isn't mid just did it to spite Myles, I ain't even mad lol.

Lbsh, I don't play this game and I can name more than 10 characters better than her.

Edit:

Bye Felicia.

....Y'all stingy!

 

[STRYKIE]

Uh, when did I get destroyed by Harley's b2? From what I remember, I've only played one Harley in tournament, which was Saltface, and he won 2-1 by the skin of his teeth. How is that getting destroyed? And I've been saying that match was 5-5 since last year, idk why it still says 6-4.

Also, no one thinks she has "2" bad MUs. She has at least 4, losing to WW, HG, Cyborg and MMH. Stop lying by saying we still have her 7-3ing everyone when he constantly said she has no 7-3 except for Doomsday(maybe).

I could've sworn you were preaching how bad she was, how unviable she was, how everyone in the game was better than her, blah blah blah, and now you say she's mid tier? What changed your mind? Did you finally level up and get an understanding of the character? Did you finally listen to some of us?

I personally don't think she's top 10, but at the same time, she can hang with everyone in the cast and is still a damn good character. If you were trash with her, then that's fine, but don't come on here trying to convince us how trash she is just because you can't win a MU with her if your life depended on it. Its been a year of this shit man, shut the fuck up and give it a rest already.

O, and no, you were very wrong and your life is still disqualified.

Bye Felicia.