Question Was Cyber Sub Zero really as bad as everyone said?

[Vagrant]

LMAO


I love that this got front paged.

 

[C-Sword]

Can you perform the 3, 3 string after a forward dash or will it release the bombs instead?

 

[zaf]

@CcTrust @G4S J360

I can agree with a 5-5 for csz vs ermac. If anyone is to win this match up it would be ermac IMO. But when this match up is pushed to the limits it can be 5-5.

There are stupid dead zones that TKP has. CSZ can actually avoid TKP at specific ranges with dive kick. While this should not be the main talking point for CSZ, I am just putting it out there.
CSZ has a good frame traps with b4 and his 2,1 1+2. While these are not the best frame traps in the game, they work well against ermac who is forced to use d1 to get out of pressure.
Their normals are about the same in terms of frames. So they are equal there.

CSZ is not going to just divekick because that is what is going to kill him. I got to play for a ridiculous amount of time with Josh. He spent a lot of time exploring this match up.

CSZ can be kinda annoying for ermac when he places him in the corner or when he gets that merri-go-round shit going. Or whatever it was called.

CSZ has good footsies with his d3 33 and 34

 

[zaf]

Can you perform the 3, 3 string after a forward dash or will it release the bombs instead?

For shit like that, I like to buffer a down or a block to get the 33 to come out.

 

[G4S KT]

J360 only thinks Smoke loses to Cybersub because I was (and still am) ass at MK9.

I mean, TYM obvi know what they're talking about and Smoke is borderline bannable. He's right up there with the other broken-tier characters.

His Cyrax-like death combos *coughDAMAGE-EXPLOITScough* and GODLIKE footsies are WAY too much for a trash character like CSZ to deal with. CSZ can't do anything because he'll get smoke-bombed into 80% life for 1 bar.

How do you fight that!?!?!

9-1 Smoke

 

[TrashMKX]

"lulz" ??? Adults use that term? I thought only children and tweens did.

 

[DevilMaySpy]

Man, this brings me back to the good ol days when Pig would call out regular Sub Zero mains and money match them for $50 each.

 

[Cossner]

Can we front page this?

 

[STRYKIE]

The kenshi number is really a joke lol

But he does have armor for everything, the fact that his moves force a jump and even if i jump no respect is necessary because he can just do a move AGAIN coated in armor. He simply does not have gaps in his strings like Kabal and Kitana that can be parried or made whiff-able for punishing. As far as liu kang goes i will admit that i have never played against a SUPER top Liu so i could be wrong.

But i had plenty of kabal and kenshi with reo, lol plenty

Actually, Kenshi does have a gap in his F3,2 string, but it's kinda redundant since CSZ can parry the first hit anyway (even though it's a low WTF NRS) lol, but fair enough, I assumed it was one of those "CSZ's name isn't Kung Lao therefore he automatically loses to Kenshi 7-3" notions, but I'll take your word for it.

My experience against Kang is limited too, but the problem is pretty much that he's a reverse Kabal, you can take more risks against his IAFBs since they can't be full combo'd from, but he has no gaps in his strings whatsoever and his respective overhead/low F3/F4 mixups that keep you standing grant far too much advantage to realistically be expected to go for a parry. Probably better off checking with 111 or 11 iceball depending on how momentous you feel about your hit confirm. Make of it what you will.

 

[KIllaByte]

There was a low tier online tournament a while back on PSN, that had 50 or so participants, as two players were allowed for every low tier character.
I was one of the last to sign up, seeing that the only character who had not yet been chosen at all, was Cyber-Sub-Zero.
I took the opportunity and practiced up, as he wasn't one of my mains-- and then got sixth.

This experience confirmed two things:
1: He is not played much, despite being a super cool character.
2. He's not that bad-- I'm not one of the best players, and maybe those players weren't that experienced with the MU-- but I still made top 8, so he can't be that bad.

 

[xSMoKEx]

i never said u cant punish them malik. u can space them out and he can land into b2 heaven ofc. but smokes lack of any kind of jailing and string mixups make it ez for him to get outa pressure with his parry. Also his mixups are pretty good on smokes hitbox. i agree smoke has better pokes though but that parry does reallly get annoying if it's a really good cyber sub that knows how to read when to do it. the startup on that thing is really fast. i honestly think its more of 5.5-4.5 but i could agree 5-5 i guess?
@xSMoKEx dan didnt u say u think its 6-4 also

@edit also remember ex parry is a full combo

I think 5-5 (annoying mu). Cyber doesn't have to worry too much about tossing out parries because there is no low launcher threat, so if the player is sound defensively he can be a pain in the ass. Divekicks make it easy for him to get in, and even though teleport isn't that good it's still an extra tool that is worth a mention at least.

If he had better pokes I could see 6-4 but as it stands with the reset damage, and superior pokes making it slightly easier / safer for smoke to escape pressure I would have to say 5-5 for now. Josh and your numbers are both reasonable though, either way CSZ does pretty well in the MU and it by no means a blow out for either character

 

[UsedForGlue]

To be completely honest Usedforglue thought CSz was awesome






......until he went to america

My only regret is that I didn't use him when I went. Only in 3 games vs dizzy.

 

[UsedForGlue]

The character was good, he had some nonsensical things in his make up, such as a parry for mids but not d1... His d1 was ass, his d3 is always +3 on hit on crouch and stand, so he could be d3'd all day. You had to spend a bar to be safe after a d3 on hit by doing ex short dive kick as his mids were 15/13 frames.

Don't get me started on bombs, slow ice ball, no armour on ex slide, and dive kick basically doing nothing on hit. He could have been amazing with buffs like Jax, Cyrax etc, but for me is good and sits just outside top 5.

 

[STRYKIE]

I think 5-5 (annoying mu). Cyber doesn't have to worry too much about tossing out parries because there is no low launcher threat, so if the player is sound defensively he can be a pain in the ass. Divekicks make it easy for him to get in, and even though teleport isn't that good it's still an extra tool that is worth a mention at least.

If he had better pokes I could see 6-4 but as it stands with the reset damage, and superior pokes making it slightly easier / safer for smoke to escape pressure I would have to say 5-5 for now. Josh and your numbers are both reasonable though, either way CSZ does pretty well in the MU and it by no means a blow out for either character

Can't you just use a naked smoke bomb lol?

The character was good, he had some nonsensical things in his make up, such as a parry for mids but not d1... His d1 was ass, his d3 is always +3 on hit on crouch and stand, so he could be d3'd all day. You had to spend a bar to be safe after a d3 on hit by doing ex short dive kick as his mids were 15/13 frames.

Don't get me started on bombs, slow ice ball, no armour on ex slide, and dive kick basically doing nothing on hit. He could have been amazing with buffs like Jax, Cyrax etc, but for me is good and sits just outside top 5.

To my understanding +3 is the norm for D3s, isn't CSZ's D3 in particular neutral on hit?

 

[xInfra Deadx]

Still a bill of goods.

 

[_xFriction]

Still a bill of goods.

didn't i retire you with CSZ?

 

[xInfra Deadx]

didn't i retire you with CSZ?

Stahp stalking me!

 

[_xFriction]

Stahp stalking me!

ANSWER THE QUESTION!!!

 

[xSMoKEx]

Can't you just use a naked smoke bomb lol?


To my understanding +3 is the norm for D3s, isn't CSZ's D3 in particular neutral on hit?

Tossing out a 14f smoke bomb (19f if you count the throwing information) in the middle of pressure isn't exactly the safest thing to do but yeah it is possible. Just think though, if he does decide to jump or attack with a normal you're screwed. Not to mention that if he just remains blocking your pressure is now over. Its good in the sense that if you have a heavy read on his parry you can blow it up, but you could just do that anyways via whiff punish with 21~sb :\

 

[RM AtK!]

Tossing out a 14f smoke bomb (19f if you count the throwing information) in the middle of pressure isn't exactly the safest thing to do but yeah it is possible. Just think though, if he does decide to jump or attack with a normal you're screwed. Not to mention that if he just remains blocking your pressure is now over. Its good in the sense that if you have a heavy read on his parry you can blow it up, but you could just do that anyways via whiff punish with 21~sb :\

real smokes use instant air smoke bombs instead!! ~~ the problem @GGA Wafflez

 

[its_ezie]

remember when everyone said bane was garbage early on in injustice? well now that he's been explored more with the help of some patches he can duke it out with just about anyone. i find CSZ to be the same way. noone explored him and was so quick to put the "he's garbage" or "he's low tier" title on him without even giving him a chance. i really hope when mk10 comes out the make that the cast is similar to injustice. how any character can beat any character whether they have the tools to or not. all it takes is practice

 

[STRYKIE]

remember when everyone said bane was garbage early on in injustice? well now that he's been explored more with the help of some patches he can duke it out with just about anyone. i find CSZ to be the same way. noone explored him and was so quick to put the "he's garbage" or "he's low tier" title on him without even giving him a chance. i really hope when mk10 comes out the make that the cast is similar to injustice. how any character can beat any character whether they have the tools to or not. all it takes is practice

Bane is more comparable to Jax than anything. CSZ didn't get a single ounce of help in any of MK9's hotfixes.

 

[NYCj360]

Bane is more comparable to Jax than anything. CSZ didn't get a single ounce of help in any of MK9's hotfixes.

All CSZ ever got was stealth Nerfs

 

[Wemfs]

I remember watching your CSZ a few times, J360, and I was blown away by some of the things you did with him. By far my favorite representative of the character to watch.

 

[its_ezie]

Bane is more comparable to Jax than anything. CSZ didn't get a single ounce of help in any of MK9's hotfixes.

i dont really see the comparison lol. i only used bane as an example cuz of how people viewed him early on. people thought the tools he had just wouldnt be enough. they thought he was garbage just like people thought/still think CSZ isnt good.