Discussion Variation Tier List 12/06/16

[ienjoywinning]

Jumping out still hits you so it's not a valid option, even if you could jump out it would still be based on a read. Next time you do that Gunslinger will send you flying with Stand-Off 2, or continue the string.
Safe meterless 50/50's that DO lack damage potential, fair enough.
He doesn't need to zone forever, it forces opponents to advance themselves (even forces SZ to advance).
I agree that mids make or break a character, but EB is one of the few that does fine without <12 frame true mids.

As I said, I can't speak for his MU's but his tools and success warrant S tier, this is one of the few things even TYM can't convince me of otherwise.

Its a valid option as you take 3% and roll away and your back to neutral or you if you read his doing sos2 just crouch block it lol and full combo punish and you can even just do a fast special aswell... Also which safe 50/50s are you talking about? Gunslinger doesn't have safe 50/50s.... Not to mention the fact he has no mid is crucial , Try playing against a character with a good lowprofiling poke ( ie johnny and scorpion for example) and tell me that he can play without one. Also i don't even want to mention the fact that he cant deal with jump ins well and he has terrible air to airs too... Now can you answer my question ? Do you or have you played the character before before putting him as tier?

 

[OutworldKeith]

I think Lackey and Vicious should switch, Lackey is actually a good pick against the other two variations, and overall Vicious may have better MU's, lackey just has better tools overall and does better damage.

At the end of the day MUs are the biggest factor in tier list rankings.

 

[21122]

Gunslinger S+ tier?

Not to mention suggesting nerfs LOL

Poor Erron haha

 

[Geoffmeister]

It says S tier needs to be down toned but Kang is in S tier. You mean to tell me Kang needs to be nerfed even more? This list is decent but I dont agree with some of the placements. How is cyber sub zero higher than Sektor. Other than that i agree. good work mostly

Thanks.
And yes, imo Liu Kang needs a slight downtone, doesn't mean he wouldn't deserve something else to make up for it. For example, a faster poke and/or more range on an advancing move in trade for (again) less frame-advantage on special cancels (same applies to D'vorah but I think she wouldn't need an extra something). I'd say Liu Kang is probably the hardest for me to judge on how the variation could be more "useful" while not having to resort to high-plus situations where the only real answer to is something he specializes in shutting down (B1 < Armor).

Its a valid option as you take 3% and roll away and your back to neutral or you if you read his doing sos2 just crouch block it lol and full combo punish and you can even just do a fast special aswell... Also which safe 50/50s are you talking about? Gunslinger doesn't have safe 50/50s.... Not to mention the fact he has no mid is crucial , Try playing against a character with a good lowprofiling poke ( ie johnny and scorpion for example) and tell me that he can play without one. Also i don't even want to mention the fact that he cant deal with jump ins well and he has terrible air to airs too... Now can you answer my question ? Do you or have you played the character before before putting him as tier?

The safe 50/50's involves Close Money Shot, granted it can be punished but again, only on a read. Mixup situation after mixup situation for little risk is a big deal.
His 1 is an OK AA but he doesn't excel in the air at all, don't think he has to rely on it.
I answered your other question in previous post

Anyway, I appreciate you (and other people) taking the time discussing this, but I have considered most of those points.

Not to mention suggesting nerfs LOL

Poor Erron haha

You're defending him needing 8% chip on block from one safe meterless special? Go on.. Tell me I can backdash it.

 

[YoloRoll1stHit]

First yungmonster upplaying Jacqui now this.

 

[the.hamburglar]

See while i get what your saying, he isnt that plus. I think only plus 8 and its stupid hard to jail. Isnt Jc like plus 14-20? Lets worry about him more. I think if we take away the plus frames from Kang, Df will die. Dualist is never viable. Flame fist which is a decent variation in the first place will be his good variaton but i mean ehh. His back 1,2 armor break is negative 1 or neutral on block with cancel and if you mistime it on wake up, its not too great for you. I think he already has a 7 frame d1 so its not too bad. His d3 is 11 but plus 1 on block so also not bad. I think hes fine, the way he is eve though i would want a forward advancing move other than f2. Side note, his f4,4 string at max range will whiff the second hit for whatever fucking reason but its all opinion based

 

[ienjoywinning]

Thanks.
And yes, imo Liu Kang needs a slight downtone, doesn't mean he wouldn't deserve something else to make up for it. For example, a faster poke and/or more range on an advancing move in trade for (again) less frame-advantage on special cancels (same applies to D'vorah but I think she wouldn't need an extra something). I'd say Liu Kang is probably the hardest for me to judge on how the variation could be more "useful" while not having to resort to high-plus situations where the only real answer to is something he specializes in shutting down (B1 < Armor).



The safe 50/50's involves Close Money Shot, granted it can be punished but again, only on a read. Mixup situation after mixup situation for little risk is a big deal.
His 1 is an OK AA but he doesn't excel in the air at all, don't think he has to rely on it.
I answered your other question in previous post

Anyway, I appreciate you (and other people) taking the time discussing this, but I have considered most of those points.



You're defending him needing 8% chip on block from one safe meterless special? Go on.. Tell me I can backdash it.

I don't think you have , close money is hella slow , I don't even know why bring that up... also just to let you know literally f13 or b33 into anything has a gap except (f132) and (b334) but you can obv armor os that so if you have a bar of meter it's literally a free punish... erron is fine man and he isn't 's tier.. you can make any character look ridiculous just by typing the stuff they have lol.... I'm not gonna discuss this any further because we all have opinions so have a nice evening ( or day?)

 

[Goat-City]

I think Summoner and Sorcerer should be in the same tier. Summoner would be lower but his hard to blockables are still alive and very useful so he's still too good. The A++ tier is unnecessary, but whatever the second highest tier is should be where Sorcerer and Summoner stay, and Warlock should be a tier below them.

 

[21122]

Thanks.
And yes, imo Liu Kang needs a slight downtone, doesn't mean he wouldn't deserve something else to make up for it. For example, a faster poke and/or more range on an advancing move in trade for (again) less frame-advantage on special cancels (same applies to D'vorah but I think she wouldn't need an extra something). I'd say Liu Kang is probably the hardest for me to judge on how the variation could be more "useful" while not having to resort to high-plus situations where the only real answer to is something he specializes in shutting down (B1 < Armor).



The safe 50/50's involves Close Money Shot, granted it can be punished but again, only on a read. Mixup situation after mixup situation for little risk is a big deal.
His 1 is an OK AA but he doesn't excel in the air at all, don't think he has to rely on it.
I answered your other question in previous post

Anyway, I appreciate you (and other people) taking the time discussing this, but I have considered most of those points.



You're defending him needing 8% chip on block from one safe meterless special? Go on.. Tell me I can backdash it.

Ye, he needs it.

 

[WeaponQ]

As a gunslinger main I can say that he is not S tier, not even close. On paper sure he has all the tools you need to handle most match ups but in a match all that gets thrown out the window. You have no idea how frustrating it is to block something punishable but not being able to punish it because all his moves are highs and he gets poked out.

 

[Rozalin1780]

As a gunslinger main I can say that he is not S tier, not even close. On paper sure he has all the tools you need to handle most match ups but in a match all that gets thrown out the window. You have no idea how frustrating it is to block something punishable but not being able to punish it because all his moves are highs and he gets poked out.

I'm having a hard time understanding this. If something is punishable, how can they poke you before you hit them? If they can poke out, then wouldn't that mean it isn't punishable? There are a lot of examples of character specific punishes in the game and not all are exclusive to Erron Black.

Besides, Kitana's 111 is all highs, has piss poor range and no forward advance, and it still punishes a large portion of moves in the game.