Discussion Variation Tier List 12/06/16

[Kamikaze_Highlander]

I think Lackey and Vicious should switch, Lackey is actually a good pick against the other two variations, and overall Vicious may have better MU's, lackey just has better tools overall and does better damage.

 

[RyuKazuya]

I dont want to doewnplay but i dont agree on flame fist being S tier. Dragons fire i agree but flamefist with all the gaps?

 

[Gofer_MK_]

*looks in S tier for Ermac, doesn't find him
*looks below OP's name, sees "Ermac main"
*OK

Don't worry bruh, at least he placed Gunsinger in S++++, damn broken character in need of immediate nerfing.

 

[YoloRoll1stHit]

Oh and I agree with Hollywood should be placed at the highest tier of the game (aka S tier, not S+ tier, because there is no broken character currently), along with Acidick, Piercing, A list, Demolition

 

[MsMiharo]

Blood God B tier? "I respectfully disagree"

Commando is probably A+.

 

[MsMiharo]

Also I doubt Dragon Fangs is B. A- at least.

 

[God Confirm]

Cyber Sub Zero A+ tier.

Right.

 

[The Farmer]

If errons standing 2 was a mid, then yes I would say he'd be s tier. But it's a high so yea. Smart players d1, d3 my advancing s2 all day.

 

[XxDark_]

please... what did I miss. when the fuck did gunslinger become S+!?!?

 

[Nausea]

This list is wild. In what world would you place Gunslinger ahead of Piercing?



And don't get me started on Spectral being worse than Hellfire....

 

[ienjoywinning]

Geoff you know i love you and all.... but gunslinger is not even close to being s+ , he's barely a+ ( maybe not at all)

 

[SaSSolino]

even YOMI makes better tier lists

 

[ienjoywinning]

Also marksman is not a , he is a+ with outlaw , safe hit confirmable 50/50S that lead into like 33% meterless midscreen and around 39% for a bar ? Not to mention the damage he can do in the corner which is also safe and they all give good oki

 

[Gofer_MK_]

please... what did I miss. when the fuck did gunslinger become S+!?!?

You were in a coma bro or what? Gunslinger is obviously broken. xD

 

[ienjoywinning]

You're right about the C-tier, there was no need and I actually included that during the making of the character tier .. No idea why.
I agree on Bojutsu being A tier, oversight on my part.
I should honestly move Displacer to "Remaining" characters.

Thanks!



Gunslinger has one of the best neutral, space-control, zoning, mixups and mixup-safety while also access to multiple-hitting strings which are gapless and a command throw.. add to that his unusually high chip damage and great meter synergy. He's a top character in need of normalizations*


CSZ possesses better space control (more accessible mids, an iceball which is faster than SZ's), requires less risk to attempt his playstyle. I believe CSZ is still strong but then again, not as strong as Smoke. Sektor and Cyrax I find very underwhelming since the last patch, but I'm open to better insight.



You would still agree Kenjutsu is his top variation, right?
I believe JC is strong in neutral, I don't think I could place Fisticuffs in B-tier, interested in your thoughts, though.



My bad! Forgot adding him



I did. My mistake.

A character with no good mid shouldn't be that high for one , if you have any forward advancing armored move you can blow up every time he cancels into sos3 , also all of his 50/50s ( except 1 ie b32) have a gap when cancel'd into into anything.... ( not to mention you can jump out if he tries to do f13 ex sg or b33 ex sg) and only take 3% and be able to roll.... Not to mention you dont even have to guess if you have meter and i try to do a 50/50 off of 21122. Even if you do get hit the reward i get is 13% and +10 on hit which isn't amazing. Im sorry but he is no way near that s+ , a character with so many holes and weaknesses cant be S.

Also ex slide is a good way to use your meter ? What good does a 17f move that low profiles on like the 20th frame and doesnt even have armor all the way through AND is -3 on hit and -16 on block.............
Honestly if you can't see all of his weaknesses then you probably need to spend some more time in the lab.

 

[Icefyre]

*Looks at tier list, finds Smoke and CSZ in A+, Sektor and Cyrax below them

*Closes tier list

You could use a bit more insight on the Triborg variations.

 

[Geoffmeister]

Hi, I main Ancestral and you forgot to even put him on the list(or at least i don't see him). I think he belongs a tier below Johnny and the top 5.

Forgot adding him, thanks! Also I doubt he's that high up, I think A tier is suitable, given his options and bad MU's.

RIP Sakr0n and other Bojutsu players. Bojutsu is no longer tournament viable as of this thread. It's time to join the Shaolin master race.

Sakron won't use Bojutsu solely in any tournament setting, doesn't mean he won't be doing better against certain MU's.

Subtract each tier by one because there's no S+ character in this game right now.

As for specifics I'm gonna only comment on everything I know fairly well so here goes

- Gunslinger is way too high. (-2 tiers)
- Hellfire, Hunter, Nimble, Hollywood, Tempest, Jacqui, Kenjutsu, Balanced, Royal Storm, and Heavy Weapons are too high. (-1 tier)
- Thunder God, Acidic, and Outlaw are probably a bit high (Ehh)

- Fisticuffs, Dragon Fangs, Lackey, Blood God are way too low (+2 tiers)
- Stunt Double, Piercing, Tigrar Fury, Sun God, Pumped Up, Marksman, Swarm Queen, Sorcerer, Summoner, Grandmaster, Wrestler, Spectral, Lasher(Actually all of Takeda), Relentless, Unstoppable, Master of Souls, and Mystic, are all too low (+1 tier)
- Spec ops and Boujitsu are probably a bit low (Ehh).

Like honestly how are you gonna put Marksman all the way down in essentially bottom tier and put Gunslinger in top, especially after the buff which now allows him to link nearly all possible Gun Cancels into a full combo, making his neutral game far better than Outlaw and most likely equal to Gunslinger. Then there's the fact of him having safe 50/50s, Gun cancel mind games, better conversions, and way way more damage.

I'll put S+ and S in one group, there isn't a big difference between the two, imo and I guess it's missleading to many people.
- Lackey, Blood God and DF being too low I can understand, Fisticuffs not so much but that was my initial thought as well, not too sure.
- The ones that need to be placed higher could be split into another sub-tier, somewhere in A through A++, I'll see if I can improve it

I dont want to doewnplay but i dont agree on flame fist being S tier. Dragons fire i agree but flamefist with all the gaps?

Since the patch there's a lot more guaranteed for him, the defensive approach to Flame Fist has been made significantly harder imo, but I'll agree I'm not too sure if he should be placed as high as Dragons Fire, A+ would probably be more suitable. Thanks.

Blood God B tier? "I respectfully disagree"

Commando is probably A+.

Blood God could be A tier but that's if he can execute his gameplan well enough to not having to deal with half the casts extreme offense, realistically I don't think Blood God could be played defensive enough and still get away with a win, I'll give it more thought.

*Looks at tier list, finds Smoke and CSZ in A+, Sektor and Cyrax below them

*Closes tier list

You could use a bit more insight on the Triborg variations.

Triborg I'm pretty confident in their placement. The only thing I'm not sure about is Sektor's placing versus Cyrax's placing, Sektor is slightly better but not enough to warrant him placing in A+ or Cyrax in B, I'll make some adjustments.

 

[Derptile]

Forgot adding him, thanks! Also I doubt he's that high up, I think A tier is suitable, given his options and bad MU's.



Sakron won't use Bojutsu solely in any tournament setting, doesn't mean he won't be doing better against certain MU's.



I'll put S+ and S in one group, there isn't a big difference between the two, imo and I guess it's missleading to many people.
- Lackey, Blood God and DF being too low I can understand, Fisticuffs not so much but that was my initial thought as well, not too sure.
- The ones that need to be placed higher could be split into another sub-tier, somewhere in A through A++, I'll see if I can improve it



Since the patch there's a lot more guaranteed for him, the defensive approach to Flame Fist has been made significantly harder imo, but I'll agree I'm not too sure if he should be placed as high as Dragons Fire, A+ would probably be more suitable. Thanks.



Blood God could be A tier but that's if he can execute his gameplan well enough to not having to deal with half the casts extreme offense, realistically I don't think Blood God could be played defensive enough and still get away with a win, I'll give it more thought.



Triborg I'm pretty confident in their placement. The only thing I'm not sure about is Sektor's placing versus Cyrax's placing, Sektor is slightly better but not enough to warrant him placing in A+ or Cyrax in B, I'll make some adjustments.

Never listen to Cage players when they talk about him in general. There is absolutely no way Fisticuffs is as bad as Ancestral, Buzzsaw, or other low tier characters.

BTW Lackey has a safe(relatively) armored launcher that does 45%, free armor, super dumb pokes, and among various other things that definitely make him way better than where he is right now lol.

 

[Blewdew]

I think Lackey and Vicious should switch, Lackey is actually a good pick against the other two variations, and overall Vicious may have better MU's, lackey just has better tools overall and does better damage.

I don't think either of them deserves s tier.

 

[Geoffmeister]

This list is wild. In what world would you place Gunslinger ahead of Piercing?
And don't get me started on Spectral being worse than Hellfire....

Piercing will see more neutral situations than Gunslinger, she's not close to the exchanges Gunslinger can do, but her defense is far better.
Hellfire can use his mixups and still be in a baiting position without committing, which is a far better conditioning tool when applying offense compared to Spectrals, I believe he has way more tools but definitely doesn't shine everywhere as good as Spectral.

A character with no good mid shouldn't be that high for one , if you have any forward advancing armored move you can blow up every time he cancels into sos3 , also all of his 50/50s ( except 1 ie b32) have a gap when cancel'd into into anything.... ( not to mention you can jump out if he tries to do f13 ex sg or b33 ex sg) and only take 3% and be able to roll.... Not to mention you dont even have to guess if you have meter and i try to do a 50/50 off of 21122. Even if you do get hit the reward i get is 13% and +10 on hit which isn't amazing. Im sorry but he is no way near that s+ , a character with so many holes and weaknesses cant be S.

Also ex slide is a good way to use your meter ? What good does a 17f move that low profiles on like the 20th frame and doesnt even have armor all the way through AND is -3 on hit and -16 on block.............
Honestly if you can't see all of his weaknesses then you probably need to spend some more time in the lab.

There are ways around his lack of a mid, he has the space control and the threat of several specials.
I know there are gaps, but he gets a low-risk mindgame out of it, jumping out? No Sir, that's too big of a risk.
S+ has been condensed to S, I still think he's S-tier can't place him lower than that.

Never listen to Cage players when they talk about him in general. There is absolutely no way Fisticuffs is as bad as Ancestral, Buzzsaw, or other low tier characters.

BTW Lackey has a safe(relatively) armored launcher that does 45%, free armor, super dumb pokes, and among various other things that definitely make him way better than where he is right now lol.

I'm still not very sure about several variations, mainly about Ferra/Tor, Jason and Goro.
If f3 is lost on JC, that means a huge deal I think. I wouldn't call Ancestral and Buzz Saw that bad either, I think they could be better than Fisticuffs but to be honest, I'm not in a position to judge those variations as well as most.

 

[aieches]

What did he say in his video? Or.. Which video?



I'm not very sure about Lasher's placement, he could definitely be higher. Shaolin sort of same thing, maybe S+ is exaggerated, but not lower than A+.
Any example? I'm not talking about changing the game drastically, damage reduction is one thing I'd like to see as well, and the variation diversity in playstyle should also remain, I just think that many variations need to make sacrifices in order for the game to be at it's best and bring out more neutral situations.



The A tier really has very strong potential, but will eventually run into a wall. I could be wrong about Marksman but Outlaw has really good things going for him too. Tough one for me.

yeah with takeda - im really trying to find uses for every variation and im finding out that id say at least 75% of the match ups , any variation will fair well. like , Lasher is slept on.. ive been using him a lot more lately and im just mediocre at best with him, yet when im in the zone ~ he is raw and very good in my eyes. like sometimes i feel that he can cause way more salt and frustration than that SR or Ronin . one reason is because i can still have hella mix ups potential while i just sit back and play neutral. at any given point 3/4 of the screen can belong to me completely if i play smart ( no that i always do sometimes lol ) damage is less at most times but pretty much any where i place you on screen lasher has a set up. also lasher armor options are a bit better

in due time more lashers are gonna come out of the wood work and start putting on shows. Takeda just might be one of the if not the best product of the variation system in this game where each variation has potential to be on the same level.

and yeah shaolin is just as good at SR takeda - i REALLY dont see how this variation goes under the radar so much.



and for the nerfs - i dunno as to ive never really sat down varation by varation to go over what i would consider nerfing them but at a glanec a few of those characters that are in S-A i really wouldnt do much . but lets take like heavy weapons jax for instance. - in my personal opinion, i really think the character is fine where he is when it comes to nerfs- may a bit of damage reduction (seem like just last night one missle took 25% of my health , lol) but besides that i really cant see what if anything should be taken away from him - and believe me i used to HAAAATTTEE the Jax vs Takeda match up - and still even now one corner carry and it could easily be GGS for takeda but if i can keep him to mid screen its pretty much even now- esp with the new breaker system .


i kinda wish they would fix more things game wise first . i think that would help a lot of peoples match up issues
Breathing hitboxes causing problems -
skin hitbox differences
whiffing mids
crouch blocking vs stand blocking issues.
auto correcting (armored) divekicks

although i know that this these above have 0.0000051 chance of being fixed

 

[Skylight1]

I've never seen an A++ tier before in my life. Perhaps, the old style of doing tier lists (S+, S, A+, A, B, C, D, F) would work better her? But besides that, you did get Necromancer's placement right (I mean how could you not get it right, it sucks.) Relentless in the same tier as Unstoppable? Piercing and Cutthroat both S tier?

 

[ienjoywinning]

Piercing will see more neutral situations than Gunslinger, she's not close to the exchanges Gunslinger can do, but her defense is far better.
Hellfire can use his mixups and still be in a baiting position without committing, which is a far better conditioning tool when applying offense compared to Spectrals, I believe he has way more tools but definitely doesn't shine everywhere as good as Spectral.



There are ways around his lack of a mid, he has the space control and the threat of several specials.
I know there are gaps, but he gets a low-risk mindgame out of it, jumping out? No Sir, that's too big of a risk.
S+ has been condensed to S, I still think he's S-tier can't place him lower than that.



I'm still not very sure about several variations, mainly about Ferra/Tor, Jason and Goro.
If f3 is lost on JC, that means a huge deal I think. I wouldn't call Ancestral and Buzz Saw that bad either, I think they could be better than Fisticuffs but to be honest, I'm not in a position to judge those variations as well as most.

Its not a big risk to jump out at all ? Theres nothing you can do to stop it you can always jump out , also what do you mean safe 50/50s meterless ? Thats a marksman thing... Also trust me when i say there really isn't a way , him lacking a mid is huge and it largely affects him , he cant zone forever and chars that you cant properly zone like scorpion give him alot of trouble because of his great d4 and mobility , good players will always resort to low profiling with pokes. so yeah.... Just a question though... Do you play the character ?

 

[Geoffmeister]

Its not a big risk to jump out at all ? Theres nothing you can do to stop it you can always jump out , also what do you mean safe 50/50s meterless ? Thats a marksman thing... Also trust me when i say there really isn't a way , him lacking a mid is huge and it largely affects him , he cant zone forever and chars that you cant properly zone like scorpion give him alot of trouble because of his great d4

Jumping out still hits you so it's not a valid option, even if you could jump out it would still be based on a read. Next time you do that Gunslinger will send you flying with Stand-Off 2, or continue the string.
Safe meterless 50/50's that DO lack damage potential, fair enough.
He doesn't need to zone forever, it forces opponents to advance themselves (even forces SZ to advance).
I agree that mids make or break a character, but EB is one of the few that does fine without <12 frame true mids.

As I said, I can't speak for his MU's but his tools and success warrant S tier, this is one of the few things it's hard to convince me of otherwise.

edit: No I don't play the character, I've played him lots using characters with better advancing and/or zoning tools and he still does well, poking with low profiles can still be beaten by him (f1, f2, f3 are not the best mids, but they do work and command throw is another option, d1-command throw is also an option albeit with not the same reward each time)

 

[the.hamburglar]

It says S tier needs to be down toned but Kang is in S tier. You mean to tell me Kang needs to be nerfed even more? This list is decent but I dont agree with some of the placements. How is cyber sub zero higher than Sektor. Other than that i agree. good work mostly