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Question Vanilla Sub Zero tier position?

I don't know about that, armor makes a huge difference in that matchup. No armored red kick meant all sub zero had to do was stand back and react to anything Cage tried to do.
24 low hat was overrated at the time, but having a projectile that hits low and is only -7 is huge. That really helps in poking.

I don't understand your comment about cage. I already said sz would undoubtedly beat cage 6-4 pre-patch.
 

Wildabeast

The Bat in the Hat
24 low hat was overrated at the time, but having a projectile that hits low and is only -7 is huge. That really helps in poking.

I don't understand your comment about cage. I already said sz would undoubtedly beat cage 6-4 pre-patch.
Id call it a 7-3.
 

Wildabeast

The Bat in the Hat
It'd be tough to say without playing the MU with the knowledge we have now. It's bad for sure but cage had +11 sweep that could be reset. SZ also didn't have armor on ex slide meaning jc's corner game was better.
I think you're underestimating just how much of a difference having armor makes vs Sub Zero. How does johhny cage get in/ get a life lead on Sub Zero without the threat of a Red kick stuffing Ice clone/ Ice ball.
 

Axel_Redd

Vampire Jesus....he wants YOUR blood now!!
wait...so whats the deal with subs reset now? what did the patch change about it if it still works? o-0
 

Wildabeast

The Bat in the Hat
k, lol, cuz people were sayin it does xD. Only online does it still work...offline not so much.
It shouldn't even work online. Which one are you talking about because the original one was always a 50/50 and the ground freeze one doesn't work anymore because Ground freeze no longer catches someone after a 212 Ice blast. I think B2 is still guaranteed after a ground freeze but good luck landing that.
 

Axel_Redd

Vampire Jesus....he wants YOUR blood now!!
It shouldn't even work online. Which one are you talking about because the original one was always a 50/50 and the ground freeze one doesn't work anymore because Ground freeze no longer catches someone after a 212 Ice blast. I think B2 is still guaranteed after a ground freeze but good luck landing that.
i was talking about the b2 one online.
 
I think you're underestimating just how much of a difference having armor makes vs Sub Zero. How does johhny cage get in/ get a life lead on Sub Zero without the threat of a Red kick stuffing Ice clone/ Ice ball.
i dont think he really needs red kick. sub not having armor on slide would really help cages pressure game and also cage would have fwd 3 2 np back. though i dnt think that really matters.
 

Dizzy

False Information Police Officer
Premium Supporter
NetherRealm Studios
Sub would be possibly top 10, no way top 5. Block infinites with kabal and sonya, literal infinites with some chars like cyrax and ermac.
 

Wildabeast

The Bat in the Hat
i dont think he really needs red kick. sub not having armor on slide would really help cages pressure game and also cage would have fwd 3 2 np back. though i dnt think that really matters.
Like i said, Cage has to get in on Sub for any of that to matter. How does he do that when the only tool he has to stop sub from putting up a clone whenever he feels like it is a projectile that can be punished with a slide on reaction?
 

Wildabeast

The Bat in the Hat
it would suck not having red kick. but idk if he would really NEED it vs sub. he can get in on sub with out it
How? The only tool he would have to stop Sub from putting up a clone whenever he wants is forceball which sub can slide under on reaction.
 

NRF CharlieMurphy

Kindergarten Meta
it would suck not having red kick. but idk if he would really NEED it vs sub. he can get in on sub with out it
not really.
Sub was also taking away 60% on a good punish/read, and pushing you to the corner while comboing.
Even on an AA 2,2 freeze... i'd still land the same damage Cage does as an AA.

This MU was awful, along with Jax. They had ZERO answers to ice clone. Cage still doesn't.... but at least he can chip away and bait the exslide. You didn't even have the bait option... because SZ would rather eat all the chip and find a poke spot to clone.
 

Obs_SmSwag

"I have good taste because I like what I like"
Lol, pre-patch spin was safe? He needs it!!!

I demand Lao receives that spin, an armored ex spin or the old low-hat back.