Universal MU-Chart and Mathematical Tierlist

This has got to be discussed right here:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1777450635731869787

Thoughts???

 

What you're forgetting is that the two Smoke players (who are pretty reputably amazing players btw) are not the only ones contributing to the smoke numbers. A MU number has to be agreed upon by both sets of character representatives, so this isn't a situation where the Smoke players are downplaying.

Is there anything specific with the MU spread that you disagree with, or do you just feel like Smoke is better than what you are seeing?

I feel he belongs 3 or 4 tiers higher

 

I feel he belongs 3 or 4 tiers higher

But why do you think that, other than you struggling against him online? What specific Smoke MUs do you disagree with? Sounds like there's a lot of you think he should suddenly be in S/S+ tier.

 

But why do you think that, other than you struggling against him online? What specific Smoke MUs do you disagree with? Sounds like there's a lot of you think he should suddenly be in S/S+ tier.

I'm more concerned why certain people think he is so low

 

I feel like he is a strong character.

I didn't spend time crunching the numbers

I did notice he does seem criminally low

I feel he belongs 3 or 4 tiers higher

Based on?...

 

I'm more concerned why certain people think he is so low

People think he's low because they literally collected quantitative evidence that supports that claim.

 

Based on?...

Solely my own experiences, he can be incredibly difficult to defend against. I can see him being that low if the smoke player doesn't know what they are doing. But these matchup charts are always subjective.

 

Solely my own experiences, he can be incredibly difficult to defend against. I can see him being that low if the smoke player doesn't know what they are doing. But these matchup charts are always subjective.

"I can see him being that low if the smoke player doesn't know what they are doing."

You think this collective of high level players don't know what they're doing so think Smoke is low? This sounds unreasonable lol. Could it be possible that they actually "do know" what they're doing, which is why they struggle less in the MU, considering that would mean they know how to play it better than most players?

 

"I can see him being that low if the smoke player doesn't know what they are doing."

You think this collective of high level players don't know what they're doing so think Smoke is low? This sounds unreasonable lol. Could it be possible that they actually "do know" what they're doing, which is why they struggle less in the MU, considering that would mean they know how to play it better than most players?

As a high level player myself in my past experiences most people that talk about matchups only partially know what they are talking about and never provide the full picture and may even downplay the character they represent based on their current biases, so I am highly skeptical of any matchup chart and take them all with a grain of salt.

 

As a high level player myself in my past experiences most people that talk about matchups only partially know what they are talking about and never provide the full picture and may even downplay the character they represent based on their current biases, so I am highly skeptical of any matchup chart and take them all with a grain of salt.

If that happened, you don't think the other character representatives wouldn't have called it out during the MU discussion? Player A "it's 4-6 bro". Player B "it's actually 6-4". Player A "nah man just listen to me, I have spoken". Player B "okay sure I agree now". That would make even less sense. A bunch of other players aren't gonna just agree with two people downplaying if they disagree on their character MU. That's the whole point of doing MU based tier lists with multiple character representatives across different characters, to avoid downplaying like that.

 

The dunning kruger is strong with this one

 

The dunning kruger is strong with this one

You should check yourself first

 

What you're forgetting is that the two Smoke players (who are pretty reputably amazing players btw) are not the only ones contributing to the smoke numbers. A MU number has to be agreed upon by both sets of character representatives, so this isn't a situation where the Smoke players are downplaying.

Is there anything specific with the MU spread that you disagree with, or do you just feel like Smoke is better than what you are seeing?

I'd love to piggyback to this but the Smoke and Scorpion representatives take up the vast majority of the coin tosses LOL.

Both groups came in swinging, claiming that their characters lost 10+ MU's. NOBODY agreed with them, getting as high as 12 disagreements. It's honestly a miracle we were able to prevent either from being bottom 1 the way they were downplaying Lol.

Regardless, I don't actually think either Smoke nor Scorpions charts are far off from what it should actually be, but I won't disagree that Smoke is criminally low.

 

@Mikemetroid you hear that? Scorpion was downplaying and still is out here giving Kenshi that work lol.

 

In case anyone was curious as for the exact amount of coin tosses:

Smoke had 5
Scorpion had 4
Johnny had 3
Quan had 1
- 13 in total.

Smoke, Scorpion and Johnny players were stubbornly disagreeable. No amount of discussion over a period of weeks lead to any conclusions.

You could argue that, because of the coinflips, their placement in the chart isn't accurate. But I think it's important to mention that none of these characters would've been any higher/lower than 2 placements of where they currently are.

At worst, Scorpion would've been high C, Smoke low B, and Johnny a placement lower. Quan was pretty unaffected, cointoss or not.

 

@Mikemetroid you hear that? Scorpion was downplaying and still is out here giving Kenshi that work lol.

Don't bring me back into this lmaooooo this game is gonna change big time, ESPECIALLY if I can pushblock/block reversal out of sento

 

In case anyone was curious as for the exact amount of coin tosses:

Smoke had 5
Scorpion had 4
Johnny had 3
Quan had 1
- 13 in total.

Smoke, Scorpion and Johnny players were stubbornly disagreeable. No amount of discussion over a period of weeks lead to any conclusions.

You could argue that, because of the coinflips, their placement in the chart isn't accurate. But I think it's important to mention that none of these characters would've been any higher/lower than 2 placements of where they currently are.

At worst, Scorpion would've been high C, Smoke low B, and Johnny a placement lower. Quan was pretty unaffected, cointoss or not.

Used to be a lot higher it looks like, referencing (what I assume is) an earlier version of the chart. How do the players settle these? did they play or did one just turnover in their argument?

 

Used to be a lot higher it looks like, referencing (what I assume is) an earlier version of the chart. How do the players settle these? did they play or did one just turnover in their argument?

View attachment 21542

I'd say 85% of the disagreements were settled via discussion. 10% of the time they'd play sets to prove their points. 5% was via coin tosses.

 

Don't bring me back into this lmaooooo this game is gonna change big time, ESPECIALLY if I can pushblock/block reversal out of sento

Kenshi is in big trouble if pushblock is implemented AND it downs sento - but I actually think Kenshi will not be effected at all if pushblock only pushes Kenshi himself, and that's it.

 

I know it's two relatively underplayed characters so the mu probably isn't that developed but Li Mei-Havik is surprising. From her perspective I feel like she just dumpsters him. He can barely throw projectiles and his best poke gets reversaled for 400 meterless on block every time. Idk that much about Havik but seeing that listed as 5-5 really stood out. Any Havik players have thoughts on this?

 

Whats the opposite of havik master race
Havik slumlord?

I'm surprised Smoke is so low on this tier list, when I play him ONLINE he can be quite the struggle. I'm not sure if I agree with this placement. What exactly makes him so low on the tier list? I feel like he is a strong character.

Yeah i feel the same about smoke he gets to do as he wants and all of his special animations are too similar i dont know whats coming ..a cancel, a teleport , an air teleport , invisibility

I know it's two relatively underplayed characters so the mu probably isn't that developed but Li Mei-Havik is surprising. From her perspective I feel like she just dumpsters him. He can barely throw projectiles and his best poke gets reversaled for 400 meterless on block every time. Idk that much about Havik but seeing that listed as 5-5 really stood out. Any Havik players have thoughts on this?

D3 instead of d1 as a poke and her charge can be blocked , also if sub is the kameo it changes the match tanya dumpsters havik cause of multihitting armour , li mei doesnt have these luxuries id say 5 - 5 is fair her damage is scary but thats about it

 

D3 instead of d1 as a poke and her charge can be blocked , also if sub is the kameo it changes the match tanya dumpsters havik cause of multihitting armour , li mei doesnt have these luxuries id say 5 - 5 is fair her damage is scary but thats about it

Agree with sub kameo making it easier for him. Makes it so he can actually get stuff on the screen. But I was referring to his d4 being punishable by her regular db3 every time (except if he gets the VERY max spacing). Maybe it's just me but I feel like no matter what game/matchup it is, if one character can't use their pokes safely they're just gonna be in for a rough time. It just seems like he has to risk his life every time he presses anything at that range. I guess he has the extra life to take that risk but it still seems like a bad bet for him. Unless his d4 is actually bad and no one should be using it? I guess it ultimately comes down to how important is his d4 and how big of deal is it that he functionally loses access to it in this mu?

 

Impressive... now let's see the matchup chart with kameos thrown in in Patrick Bateman's voice

But also, isn't this game kind of tough to make matchups for when kameos can change matchups? Way too many possibilities.

 

I'd love to piggyback to this but the Smoke and Scorpion representatives take up the vast majority of the coin tosses LOL.

Both groups came in swinging, claiming that their characters lost 10+ MU's. NOBODY agreed with them, getting as high as 12 disagreements. It's honestly a miracle we were able to prevent either from being bottom 1 the way they were downplaying Lol.

Regardless, I don't actually think either Smoke nor Scorpions charts are far off from what it should actually be, but I won't disagree that Smoke is criminally low.

God that is hilarious

 

In case anyone was curious as for the exact amount of coin tosses:

Smoke had 5
Scorpion had 4
Johnny had 3
Quan had 1
- 13 in total.

Smoke, Scorpion and Johnny players were stubbornly disagreeable. No amount of discussion over a period of weeks lead to any conclusions.

You could argue that, because of the coinflips, their placement in the chart isn't accurate. But I think it's important to mention that none of these characters would've been any higher/lower than 2 placements of where they currently are.

At worst, Scorpion would've been high C, Smoke low B, and Johnny a placement lower. Quan was pretty unaffected, cointoss or not.

This makes sense. Non Scorpion players ALWAYS up play Scorpion pretty much no matter the game. Happened in MKX and MK11, definitely wasn’t expecting it to happen in this game.

 

Agree with sub kameo making it easier for him. Makes it so he can actually get stuff on the screen. But I was referring to his d4 being punishable by her regular db3 every time (except if he gets the VERY max spacing). Maybe it's just me but I feel like no matter what game/matchup it is, if one character can't use their pokes safely they're just gonna be in for a rough time. It just seems like he has to risk his life every time he presses anything at that range. I guess he has the extra life to take that risk but it still seems like a bad bet for him. Unless his d4 is actually bad and no one should be using it? I guess it ultimately comes down to how important is his d4 and how big of deal is it that he functionally loses access to it in this mu?

Ill throw this in as well with my morning brain lol , i can link ex bf1 onto any poke on block to make it kinda safe , its read specific though as everything is with havik