Universal MU-Chart and Mathematical Tierlist

This has got to be discussed right here:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1777450635731869787

Thoughts???

 

This is as close to an objective tier list that we'll get for the current state of the game. Its hilarious when people are met with the truth and outright reject it when it doesn't match their emotional reality.

Keep in mind, MU based tier lists are still subjective like regular tier lists. It’s just the MU numbers that are subjective instead of the actual placements. In order to get close to an objective tier list, it would require you to get close to objective MU numbers, and that would actually be impossible with humans. But you CAN technically do it with humans, it just of course reduces the objective factor.

That said, @cease did it the next best way (because the actual best way would take an unbelievable amount of time Investment and idk of anyone that would actually be willing to do it for even just 1 MU). Anyway, this is a very impressive job. I actually didn’t even read the tweets of what he did at first and had typed out the best way to go about getting a consensus on MU numbers. And he pretty much did exactly what I had typed out, lol. This had to take awhile, so the amount of effort and time investment is super appreciated!

 

Peacemaker being far above the rest is not at all surprising. What an absolute busted character. Not only does he have the most favorable MU’s, he has an insane toolkit.

TORPEDO being the biggest offender of his toolkit. Shadow kick on fucking crack

 

Keep in mind, MU based tier lists are still subjective like regular tier lists. It’s just the MU numbers that are subjective instead of the actual placements. In order to get close to an objective tier list, it would require you to get close to objective MU numbers, and that would actually be impossible with humans. But you CAN technically do it with humans, it just of course reduces the objective factor.

That said, @cease did it the next best way (because the actual best way would take an unbelievable amount of time Investment and idk of anyone that would actually be willing to do it for even just 1 MU). Anyway, this is a very impressive job. I actually didn’t even read the tweets of what he did at first and had typed out the best way to go about getting a consensus on MU numbers. And he pretty much did exactly what I had typed out, lol. This had to take awhile, so the amount of effort and time investment is super appreciated!

I completely agree, which is why I said its as close to an objective list as possible. The only way to make it better would be use and even larger number of high level players playing an even larger number of sets to get higher and higher statistical significance, which just becomes too hard logistically as you say. This is likely the best we're going to get, which is why I find it funny when people just disagree with it at the outset, for no other reason then they "feel" a character should be higher or lower, and don't offer any reason why they feel that way other than XYZ tool is strong or ABC character feels lacking.

 

Pretty cool. This is how things used to work.

My only notes are that I think people are alittle afraid to call MUs 7-3 in this game.

Kenshi probably beats a handful of characters 7-3 or 6-4 that are listed as 6-4 or 5-5. This is Cyrax syndrome all over again. People are incapable of properly accounting for the damage output, they just look and the struggle in neutral and lack of tools and think the MU is fine. I am a staunch Kenshi downplayer and even I think his placement is a bit out of touch. MK9 Crax had a similar MU chart for a while in the early days even though everyone knew he had easy ToD and 60% unbreakable combos.

 

Rain unfortunately suffers from the same thing he did in 11 and 9. He can 5-5 some great characters, but not really beat anyone out right. There has always been something odd about him. Having said that a kameo here and there can sway some match ups imo. Motaro gives him an edge in a few MUs to turn them into 6-4s or potential 5-5 or 4-6s instead of 3-7 (Reiko)

 

Yes but my issue is at a high level how the fuck did an entire community of players let Kenshi be labeled so mid when he has the ability to take one opening and turn it into a one player game, numerous times in a match? I know I can't win any argument here,as I don't play either character but I genuinely think scorpion is an unfinished character that has no dirt, where as Kenshi has an insane toolkit. I cannot believe the MU numbers. Even if scorpion does well in the MU, the overall opinion that Kenshi is in the middle of the road is laughable to me. 7 bad matchups? Do 7 characters have the ability to escape Sento sandwich pressure differently? I can see Cage being a 4-6 at a high level but I just don't see these others. Kenshi takes an inch and goes a mile, regardless of the matchup, and I have seen this over and over and over. I see only ONE scorpion cooking

I mean look at Peacemaker, sitting on top like a King. Most of the chart seems "close enough" to what would be expected, so Kenshi being where he is makes me feel that he's more overrated by the community than being misplaced. If this was a bunch of Reddit online warriors making a list that's one thing, but here there would have to be many high level non-Kenshi players involved in the MU chart agreeing with the MUs listed and collaborating. That's hard to argue against because if Kenshi was truly ultra busted, I'd expect his MU chart to reflect that since the players would call it out when talking about the MUs. It's one of the main reasons I favor MU Charts much more than the generic "character is strong/weak because tools are good/bad". You really can see who is strong/weak against which characters and how relevant it is (i.e. does the character destroy low tiers but lose to top tiers, does the character suck but is strong against 2 Top tiers, is the character 7-3 against everyone, etc).

 

Also, Tanya has no losing MUs. The downplay should be a bannable offense going forward.

 

Also, Tanya has no losing MUs. The downplay should be a bannable offense going forward.

But why doesn't she have losing MUs? She cant outzone, nor outmaneuver, nor outdamage most of the cast. She is safe and decent all around, has the best mid of the game and all that, but truly? Top 2? I need help understanding it

 

But why doesn't she have losing MUs? She cant outzone, nor outmaneuver, nor outdamage most of the cast. She is safe and decent all around, has the best mid of the game and all that, but truly? Top 2? I need help understanding it

Don't ask me, ask the 50 top players collaborating on each individual MU why your character is Ultra God Impeccable Top Tier.

 

Great idea, and the work that went into it is clearly impressive. Also, having played most of the cast, I agree with most of the placements. However, Sub's MU chart is largely wrong, imo, so it makes me wonder how many others are suffering from the same distortion.

 

Peacemaker being far above the rest is not at all surprising. What an absolute busted character. Not only does he have the most favorable MU’s, he has an insane toolkit.

give me a break. If he is s busted, why dose he get knocked out of all the weeklies before finals.. like EVERY week.

 

Keep in mind, MU based tier lists are still subjective like regular tier lists. It’s just the MU numbers that are subjective instead of the actual placements. In order to get close to an objective tier list, it would require you to get close to objective MU numbers, and that would actually be impossible with humans. But you CAN technically do it with humans, it just of course reduces the objective factor.

That said, @cease did it the next best way (because the actual best way would take an unbelievable amount of time Investment and idk of anyone that would actually be willing to do it for even just 1 MU). Anyway, this is a very impressive job. I actually didn’t even read the tweets of what he did at first and had typed out the best way to go about getting a consensus on MU numbers. And he pretty much did exactly what I had typed out, lol. This had to take awhile, so the amount of effort and time investment is super appreciated!

I appreciate it! It definitely took awhile, as mediating some of the conversations between two players who clearly hard disagree with each other became not only tedious but frustrating at times Lol.

Like mentioned in the tweet, we had to cointoss some decisions. It didn't substantially effect the tierlist, but I wouldn't say it didn't effect it at all. Total number of cointosses probably was around 10 MU's in total.

There were also mistakes in the chart, like Tanya Smoke, which was supposed to be 6-4 Tanya's favor. But I forgot to change it and left it at 7-3. It wouldn't have effected Tanya's placement or Smoke's placement, but I got some critiques on small overlooked mistakes like that.

Lots of minor errors, but we live and we learn, hoping to fix those problems the next time we do this!

 

give me a break. If he is s busted, why dose he get knocked out of all the weeklies before finals.. like EVERY week.

Could be a number of things, but I'd mostly sum it up to "skill issue" LOL.

Take for example, TheMightyUnjust. Ever since Peacemaker has come out, he hasn't lost a single set in tournament (using PM) and it's almost been THREE weeks.

 

But why doesn't she have losing MUs? She cant outzone, nor outmaneuver, nor outdamage most of the cast. She is safe and decent all around, has the best mid of the game and all that, but truly? Top 2? I need help understanding it

It's less about how oppressive her offense may be (compared to characters like Kenshi) and more about how solid she is as a character overall.

She has one of the best, if not the best defensive option in the game: multi hitting, low crushing, advancing airborne mid plus armored launcher.
She's got the best mid in the game.
Her zoning isn't anything to scoff at, as her EX projectile eats projectiles and (since her latest projectile buff) now beats out kameo trades.
She's got flexibility of kameos to cover all her match-ups: Goro, Khameleon, Janet, Stryker
Best neutral in the game as soon as she activates her buff.
Depending on kameo, like Janet, she's hitting for 40%+ like the rest of the S-Tier.

Overall she just has 0 weaknesses to exploit, which means she can only go even with everyone at worst.

 

give me a break. If he is s busted, why dose he get knocked out of all the weeklies before finals.. like EVERY week.

Can't tell if this is a serious comment or a trollolol comment lol.

 

Very interesting list to see. Puts things into a more practical view over the typical tier listing style that always come across as more feeling and "in a vacuum" than matchups.

On the topic of Tanya, she's absolutely the release MK11 Cassie of this game: jack of all trades, weak at none. She's not going to be a better zoner, better pressure, better defensive, better combo, etc. character than anyone who specializes in one of those things. However, she's able to do ALL of them competently which allows her to mix and match her game plan based on matchup and kameo. Also helps that she had one of the best armored reversals in the entire game.

 

Great idea, and the work that went into it is clearly impressive. Also, having played most of the cast, I agree with most of the placements. However, Sub's MU chart is largely wrong, imo, so it makes me wonder how many others are suffering from the same distortion.

That's the matchup chart I'm most interested in right there. Which of Sub's matches do you disagree with? The main one for me is Cage - I think it's even or in Sub's favor until Cage either gets Sub in the corner or has Star Power.

 

Also, Tanya has no losing MUs. The downplay should be a bannable offense going forward.

This is true

 

But why doesn't she have losing MUs? She cant outzone, nor outmaneuver, nor outdamage most of the cast. She is safe and decent all around, has the best mid of the game and all that, but truly? Top 2? I need help understanding it

Tbh she doesn't have any weaknesses. Literally can beat anyone and she probably uses the kameo system the best if not close to the best in the game. From jump I knew she was top 5 the moment I messed around with her in training mode. I always thought in theory if you choose Tanya and a corresponding correct kameo for the matchup and, your the better player. You win. Imo

 

It's less about how oppressive her offense may be (compared to characters like Kenshi) and more about how solid she is as a character overall.

She has one of the best, if not the best defensive option in the game: multi hitting, low crushing, advancing airborne mid plus armored launcher.
She's got the best mid in the game.
Her zoning isn't anything to scoff at, as her EX projectile eats projectiles and (since her latest projectile buff) now beats out kameo trades.
She's got flexibility of kameos to cover all her match-ups: Goro, Khameleon, Janet, Stryker
Best neutral in the game as soon as she activates her buff.
Depending on kameo, like Janet, she's hitting for 40%+ like the rest of the S-Tier.

Overall she just has 0 weaknesses to exploit, which means she can only go even with everyone at worst.

Dude I just said this too hah. Yeah she's really good because she's a freaking solid rock. If you're the better player and you choose Tanya plus the right kameo. You won't lose.

 

Could probably agree with Li Mei- shes great until you go against a character who can deal with zoning and has long reach normals then she just gets bodied. Peacemaker and mileena feel like 7-3 at least.

 

I'm surprised Smoke is so low on this tier list, when I play him ONLINE he can be quite the struggle. I'm not sure if I agree with this placement. What exactly makes him so low on the tier list? I feel like he is a strong character.

 

I'm surprised Smoke is so low on this tier list, when I play him ONLINE he can be quite the struggle. I'm not sure if I agree with this placement. What exactly makes him so low on the tier list? I feel like he is a strong character.

It’s a MU based tier list.

For those that don’t know how that works, after you get the MU numbers through whatever method (which as I said before, @cease did it the right way), you add up the first number of each MU. For instance if there’s 5 characters in a game, and a character has three 6-4 MU’s and two 5-5’s, you’d do 6+6+6+5+5, giving you a total of 28. Then based on that characters total is where they’re placed on the tier list. And of course, the higher the total the higher you are on the tier list.

 

It’s a MU based tier list.

For those that don’t know how that works, after you get the MU numbers through whatever method (which as I said before, @cease did it the right way), you add up the first number of each MU. For instance if there’s 5 characters in a game, and a character has three 6-4 MU’s and two 5-5’s, you’d do 6+6+6+5+5, giving you a total of 28. Then based on that characters total is where they’re placed on the tier list. And of course, the higher the total the higher you are on the tier list.

I didn't spend time crunching the numbers but I did notice he does seem criminally low and there are only 2 smoke players that were tagged as contributing to these matchup numbers which has me doubtful.

 

I didn't spend time crunching the numbers but I did notice he does seem criminally low and there are only 2 smoke players that were tagged as contributing to these matchup numbers which has me doubtful.

What you're forgetting is that the two Smoke players (who are pretty reputably amazing players btw) are not the only ones contributing to the smoke numbers. A MU number has to be agreed upon by both sets of character representatives, so this isn't a situation where the Smoke players are downplaying.

Is there anything specific with the MU spread that you disagree with, or do you just feel like Smoke is better than what you are seeing?