TYM’s Tier List Discussion Thread

[Juggs]

Everyone, including Sonic Fox, can be wrong once in a while, but I thought he gave justifiable reasons for each character placement. He did not downplay his characters or up play the characters he dislikes fighting against as every TYM character forum does. LOL.

The most controversial placement is Sub Zero, though.



LOL. Give me a break! I was editing while he was talking and switching between the tier list and gameplay.

Yeah Sub-Zero is the only placement I can disagree with. He basically said if you can react to his OH/Low he’s B tier, if not he’s S tier. He also said Thin Ice is the better variation, and probably A tier. I’ve been saying this for awhile, that Thin Ice is the better variation.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1124484859702009856

 

[Circus]

Did you buy into that Jade explanation?

I see where your coming from with this comment, but just because a character isn't able to enforce their strategy in every single matchup doesn't take away from the fact that they do very well in other matchups.

Jade is definitely amazing. Compared to many characters below her on many people's lists, she could reliably dictate the pace of the match against more opponents.

 

[TheJaquio]

When I hear that he said some characters are A tier I'm taken back, until I see that A tier on his list means bottom 10, which I feel most people think of as B tier.

 

[Juggs]

SonicFox’s tier list he made on his stream:

S: Sonya, Geras, Erron Black, Cassie
S-: Scorpion, Jacqui, Kabal, Jax, Skarlet
A+: Baraka, Cetrion, Noob, Jade, Raiden
A: Kung Lao, Kitana, Liu Kang, Shao Kahn, Johnny Cage, Kotal Kahn
A-: Frost
B: Sub-Zero, Kollector
C: Kano, D’Vorah

He pretty much explained his reasoning for all of them. You’ll just have to watch the VoD, too much to type. He also showed some stuff for certain characters.

A lot of certain downplayers were mad heated in the chat.

Just for confirmation, he posted it on his twitter too.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1131031603810099200

 

[ogrimtitan]

Hm... not sure I’m buying what Fox is selling on Raiden. Feel like if he bought into his own hype on the character, he’d already be playing him.

 

[Kroaken]

Hm... not sure I’m buying what Fox is selling on Raiden. Feel like if he bought into his own hype on the character, he’d already be playing him.

He only has him high mid, honestly. Nothing special.

 

[FlawlessVictory127]

Hm... not sure I’m buying what Fox is selling on Raiden. Feel like if he bought into his own hype on the character, he’d already be playing him.

What did he say about Raiden?

 

[Brown Cow 54]

He did say he wanted to learn raiden next. I loved that breakdown cause I have literally never seen that variation. I can not agree with the liu kang placement though.

 

[Kroaken]

What did he say about Raiden?

He spoke highly of discharge being a 4 frame reversal. Apparently he showed interest in Raijin.

 

[LightsOut452]

As a Cetrion main 100% she's not B tier. One of the only few strong zoners w/ a teleport and decent damage if you can out gimmick them. Few extremely hard matchups like Reborn scorpion and maybe Geras/Sonya. she's mid to high A tier for sure.

Thanks for that man, I never really had much experience against her. Played a few dudes, they both sucked lol

 

[Paul the Octopus]

Sonic Fox’s opinion deserves a lot of weight, but it’s important to remember even the best players can be wrong - sometimes extremely wrong.

Justin Wong famously said Adon was trash in SF4, then proceeded to get repeatedly demolished by Gamerbee’s Adon, and watched as Adon got second at Evo. Japan’s top player tier list for SFV has been extremely wrong every season (e.g., having Laura, one of the strongest characters in season 2, as a low tier), etc.

 

[Wallach]

Sonic's Sub-Zero placement is definitely some clickbait stuff. Even if I thought you could reliably block his core mix-up on reaction - which, to be clear, I don't - he's still a more dangerous character than someone like Frost. I definitely think he was being overrated though, and was never on the same level as Scorpion.

There's some other stuff I'd quibble with but nothing as egregious; I think both Jacqui and Scorpion are going to outperform Cassie as they currently exist, and he's definitely too excited about Shao Kahn's garbage dark priest stuff. Kabal's damage is really not as impressive as he claims (though I agree Kabal is very good in that he is basically immune to Flawless Block) and probably should swap places with Baraka.

 

[Kroaken]

Sonic Fox’s opinion deserves a lot of weight, but it’s important to remember even the best players can be wrong - sometimes extremely wrong.

Justin Wong famously said Adon was trash in SF4, then proceeded to get repeatedly demolished by Gamerbee’s Adon, and watched as Adon got second at Evo. Japan’s top player tier list for SFV has been extremely wrong every season (e.g., having Laura, one of the strongest characters in season 2, as a low tier), etc.

To be fair, most of that was Gamerbee being godlike.

 

[lionheart21]

Sonic's Sub-Zero placement is definitely some clickbait stuff. Even if I thought you could reliably block his core mix-up on reaction - which, to be clear, I don't - he's still a more dangerous character than someone like Frost. I definitely think he was being overrated though, and was never on the same level as Scorpion.

There's some other stuff I'd quibble with but nothing as egregious; I think both Jacqui and Scorpion are going to outperform Cassie as they currently exist, and he's definitely too excited about Shao Kahn's garbage dark priest stuff. Kabal's damage is really not as impressive as he claims (though I agree Kabal is very good in that he is basically immune to Flawless Block) and probably should swap places with Baraka.

I do wonder how many are gonna take Sonic's word as gospel and pick up Shao just because of Sonic's placement of him

 

[kcd117]

Yeah Sub-Zero is the only placement I can disagree with. He basically said if you can react to his OH/Low he’s B tier, if not he’s S tier. He also said Thin Ice is the better variation, and probably A tier. I’ve been saying this for awhile, that Thin Ice is the better variation.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1124484859702009856

Subs neutral is hella underrated imo. And I really don't buy this reactable mix tbh. The time you are there sitting trying to react to his OH/LOW mix he can just throw you, or F4... idk but this seems to me like training mode only tech. Besides that, he claimed that Raiden's OH is very good despite it also being a 19 frame OH.

I do agree that Thin Ice is better tho, but only bc it has slide and slide is such a good tool to keep people blocking in neutral. If he had a slide+amp ice ball variation he'd be way better than he is rn in both variations.

 

[M2Dave]

Did you buy into that Jade explanation?

I did, but Jade players know Jade much better than I do so they can decide. I know @THTB has been doing very well locally in Cleveland so he can opine on Sonic Fox's assessment on Jade.

I think the explanations are more important than character placements, some of which will certainly turn out to be inaccurate. Sonic Fox explains how each character should be played, not how you would like the character to be played. For example, I do not necessarily agree with Noob's placement, but I have perceived him to be a zoning character even though he is more effective at mid range.

 

[santanabar]

Lol subzero placement must be some "I'm edgy" stuff or whatever. I do agree shao Khan is not as bad as people say. And no way Cassie is t1, she is an excellent balanced character, but doesn't have any of the broken shit the top5 have.

 

[Elias6999]

It speaks to the good balance of the game when so many tiers are debatable, which is great!

I also think that Sonya might be a weeeee bit overrated. She kind of lacks the footsies and range other characters have, and has pretty weak mids. Although I do agree that either her projectile needs to be toned down, or her EX rings KB should do less damage.

 

[Geoffmeister]

Sub sticks out a lot here, D'vorah, Kano too... Cassie as crazy as Sonya?.. S-tier is interesting...

About Jade...
He basically said "whoa massive plus frames off the jump Rang", not accounting what happens before or after that -_-
Jade's zoning is "broken" at 20frames as her fastest projectile... this loses to teleports, Glow does too.
Holding b2 after AirRang plus frames is not a thing, not even Shadow Kick... Anyway you have to work to MAKE this work and capitalize, it's not as simple as GG plusframes, expected a bit more reasoning here..

Talked about using Standing Rang after b343... Talked about her not needing bar for anything (guess he thinks those plusframes or any damage over 18% was meterless).
I think I also heard him say she is boring.

Put Jade is the same category as Cetrion...? Teleporting, restanding, zone god..
Over Liu, Kitana? Better than Kung Lao..... ?

None of this is biased up-play? Just shoot me.

Jade has presence anywhere on the screen, not denying that, but actually playing her you can tell she doesn't get to play that way against everyone, she gets to pit a few of her moves versings characters who don't have that type of versatility, inherently putting her at a disadvantage (because her safety and damage is far below average).

Everyone deserves an opinion, it's HIS tier-list... I don't mean to put his assessment of Jade on blast.. but his explanation kinda calls for it...

 

[John Grizzly]

he's definitely too excited about Shao Kahn's garbage dark priest stuff.

He went on about how good the Dark Priest buff is (which it is, if you can actually get it out), but gave no examples of how to set it up safely, which sort of invalidates his point.

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

Other than Raiden being way too high, Sonic's list is a lot better than some of the ones I'm seeing here.

Sub Zero is being highly overrated and I think Sonic is underrating him slightly. Sub is nothing special and definitely mid tier or high mid tier at best. And after he gets nerfed he'll be D'Vorah tier.

 

[Juggs]

I think he said Sub and Skarlet was a hot take. He explained his reasonings and they were, well, reasonable. But I still don’t think Skarlet is S, A+ though for sure. I think Thin Ice Sub is A+, personally. I know SF said if you can’t react and block the OH/Low Sub is S tier, and if you can he’s B tier, and that Thin Ice was probably A tier. But I think that’s a hot take. We will see, Sub is one of the only one I can’t agree with SonicFox on.

But I will say he’s absolutely right that a lot of people aren’t playing MK11 correctly, and in turn aren’t playing their characters correctly. I’ve echoed this point a lot already. People are still trying to play MK11 like previous NRS games. And while it’s similar, it’s vastly different. Generally speaking, people need to be playing A LOT more lame than they are. A lot more runaway, turtling, footsies, spacing etc needs to be happening.

 

[Matix218]

Subs neutral is hella underrated imo. And I really don't buy this reactable mix tbh. The time you are there sitting trying to react to his OH/LOW mix he can just throw you, or F4... idk but this seems to me like training mode only tech. Besides that, he claimed that Raiden's OH is very good despite it also being a 19 frame OH.

I do agree that Thin Ice is better tho, but only bc it has slide and slide is such a good tool to keep people blocking in neutral. If he had a slide+amp ice ball variation he'd be way better than he is rn in both variations.

I agree that reacting to the overhead is training mode only as that is not the only thing you have to watch out for in a real match. Sub is super good

 

[BanTheTesters]

Jade is pretty solidly mid tier, the same people who are so hardly downplaying Jade right now are the same people who downplayed Star Fire.

Edit so I'm not triple posting: I think people are sleeping on Shao Kahn, but it will take someone with really good execution with wave dashing and hit confirming f3 to really show his potential.

I agreed with every point in this post...same cats out here downplaying jade are the same squad who downplayed super girl into top 5...

Character has solid tools sold range and decent at controlling space..

And I’ve been saying cats are sleeping on khan since launch

 

[Kroaken]

He went on about how good the Dark Priest buff is (which it is, if you can actually get it out), but gave no examples of how to set it up safely, which sort of invalidates his point.

He claimed full screen spear trade lol. Too bad it runs out before you walk full screen and get your "20% DAMAGE OMG 360NOSCOPE". This was the only part of the list that had me talking at the screen.