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TYM’s Tier List Discussion Thread

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
Premium Supporter
I feel like the more I play against and learn about Erron Black, the less I feel he's top tier. He's got fuzzy-able pressure that he has to commit to, his long range mixups can be avoided, the rifle is great but not impossible to play around, his primary footsies string has a big gap, and his damage is typically on the lower end. I'm not saying he's not challenging to beat sometimes, but it seems like once you learn the match up a lot of his pressure is trivial.

I also think Kotal Kahn, Kung Lao, and Raiden are underrated, though I'm still undecided on whether I want to keep playing any of them. They're all like one change away from being really strong.
I think Raiden and Kung Lao are definitely underrated. Before I knew the MU I thought Kotal Kahn was as well. But I’ve surprisingly faced A LOT of Kotal Players. It may be just because I use Searing Rage Scorpion, which I think could potentially be the worst MU in the game. I as Searing Rage Scorpion can literally keep Kotal out the entire game. If he somehow gets in, it’s not like it’s impossible or even very hard to get him out again. His long rang advancing strings can be low profiled and stuffed, even the mids I believe.

It’s hard for me to determine how good some characters are because I use top tier characters right now. I just don’t have time to learn anyone else. I randomly labbed Geras one day for like 30 mins and then started winning with him. I really need to learn low tier like Frost since low tier is definitely gonna get buffed eventually.

I just hope the only thing that gets changed with Scorpion is making the TP a high and maybe not being able to amp TP on block. Also I agree with making TP cancel cost two bars. I really hope that’s enough for people who say he’s OP.
 

GLoRToR

Positive Poster!
TOP: Geras, Erron Black, Scorpion, Sonya, Sub-Zero, Liu Kang, Baraka, Kabal
These characters are overperforming currently and will need some of their specific tools adjusted to the standards of the game. This also means that some of their shortcomings will need to be addressed if there are any so that they don't become bad characters.

MID: Cassie, Cetrion, Kung Lao, Noob, Jax, Skarlet, Kitana, Raiden, Jacqui, Johnny Cage, Kollector
These characters may need minor adjustments but are solid. They play MK11 as promised by NRS.

BOTTOM: D'Vorah, Kano, Jade, Shao Kahn, Frost, Kotal Kahn
These characters require attention in the next patch.
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
Premium Supporter
But you can't have a proper tier list without counting MUs, lol. It's the only even semi-objective way to form an opinion, otherwise it's just "Well I think this character is godlike so [insert tier here]"

Or you get the "those tools" memes that 16 Bit used to talk about all the time.

Arguing over individual matchups is probably far more useful at this point, because no knows enough of the entire set of MUs in the game to fashion a proper tier list at this point. Better to just argue over the 2-3 that you're actually moderately familiar with.
Yes I’m well aware, hence why I don’t like tier lists. It’s not semi-objective it’s pseudo-objective. MU numbers are arbitrary. They’re hypothetically based while pretending to be based on actual data. So when you base a tier list on MU numbers it’s no better than when you base it on anything else.

So again, this is why I dislike tier lists. But since the practicality of them aren’t very useful for the average or even competitive player, the discussion of them can be beneficial and fun. Also I do believe tier lists benefit new players so they have a good basis on who they should spend time on if they want to base it off of who is perceived to be good or not.

I threw out a list in the OP that has been a combination of experience and consensus, just so there’s a starting point of discussion. It’s not in anyway set in stone or anything, but then again no tier list is.
 

Professor Oak

Are you a boy or girl?
Kung Lao is not underrated at the moment. His biggest strength is f1, which can not be safely confirmed. You have to commit to giving up your turn(f12) or offering a potential punish(f13).

F21 is unsafe. There is nothing but orbiting hat to save you. This string will KB to allow a popup and some pretty decent damage. Being slower and punishable, best saved for whiff punishing.

B3 is a good low starting string that no one should ever be hit by because Lao is the only character that has virtually no overhead unless he leaves the ground.

D3 will sometimes jail a s2, unless the opponent is female or breathing heavily or had sausage for breakfast or you dont believe in the heart of the cards.

Wakeup u2 doesnt catch jump overs and often not even jump ins, which is hilarious looking since he swipes his hat from front to back.

Teleport is more useless in this game IMO than ever. Ending combos in f4 tele- its sometimes useable with amplify to wait for them to whiff their wakeup but its really a gimmick.

Hat toss. :(

Divekick is very strong in this game, IADK are great for punishing D4s on whiff and just mistakes in general. Jumping around(not in you buffoons) becomes sort of a mind game when you mix in short hops and whiff dive kicks, esp in certain matchups(Geras, looking at ya with the sand trap)

Orbiting hat is exclusively to create staggers and make strings safe, but each use costs half of your resources. One offense, one defense. So hopefully one stagger will open someone up. Which leads to

Some characters unreasonably depend on grabbing. Lao is one.

Ji2 is awkward to get used to sorta, but its pretty good. Consistently air-to-airing Kabals n shit.

Hop1/2 has a pretty good hotbox.

ZHat Deals great chip damage, provides oki that is defeated entirely by forward escape roll and sometimes a decent jump in. Meterless version can straight up be punished this way, even if cancelled off f4.

Hat Toss :(

His Damage is pretty average. His non KB and Fatal Blow combos range from 21-40%, with both he can net up to 51%.

His mids are average to below average.

His pokes are decent at best, except stubby d1, its trash. Always use d3 close, d4 for
Farther.

Counter Zone? Sure. You can try. Hat Toss is really good in this game. :)

Variations are garbage.

Worst Teleport in the game.

Grab and D2 Krushing Blows aside, he gets one reasonable KB requirement. Whiff punish with f214. Two Divekicks in a row is bad, you have to play sub optimal to fish for that. Same for tele3 then tele4. Just garbage.

Match Ups? I havent ran into a landslide sloppy Helpless feeling due to a character match up yet, I will say that Cassie, Sonya, even Kabal and Baraka, and others with fast projectiles or mobility, give Lao trouble.

To me, he falls in that middle of the pack. I play Lao and Noob. Noob is far better for many, many reasons.
 

STB Sgt Reed

Online Warrior
I'd make some changes to the list.

I think it's more along the lines of:

S+: Erron, Geras, Sonya, Scorpion (This is basically broken tier, blow me up if you want, but these characters are too good)

A+: Baraka, Cassie, Kabal, Sub Zero (This tier, excluding sub zero because 50/50 isn't what he or anyone in this game should be, are characters that I think define how MK11 should be played. Very neutral heavy and spacing oriented. However, they don't have many weaknesses)

A: Jacqui, Liu Kang, Cetrion, Noob, Jax (this tier is kind of like, really good at one thing and not so good at the other. For example, Jax and Jacqui dominate up close, but get hardcore zoned out)

B+: Skarlet, Jade, Johnny, Kitana, Kung Lao

B: Raiden, Kollector, Kano, Kotal Kahn, Shao Kahn, Frost

F: D’Vorah (Exactly where she belongs! :p)
 

xenogorgeous

.... they mostly come at night. Mostly.
Jacqui and Liu are A+ in supposed attempt of building tier list already , and Raiden, level A. These 3 are well better than people are underestimating already ... :D
 
It is funny that people are saying Geras is slightly overrated. I thought the same thing. Been playing him against my friend who knows how to deal with/counter his tools and it's been pretty even. Actually he annihilates me with his liu kang (no matter who I play lol). Best strings in the game imo.
 

Ardul

Noob
I also think f+4,3 string of Liu Kang is so good. Of course playing online this shit is f**g cheap. The GAP between f+4,3 and u+3 should be at least 1-2 frames bigger. With >100ms of ping these 4 options are a russian roulette very hard to punish.
1- f+4,3,u+3
2- f+4,3, db+1
3- f+4,3, db+1 amp
4- f+4,3, throw

About Sonya, I don't see her as S+ tier. Her neutral and close range are not very good. You beat 90% of her moveset with d+1/d+3 of every char, even if you are in negative frames.

Cassie is good, yep, but a char without corner combo cannot be in same league with others with >30% of damage in this situation.

I'm totally agree about Geras, Erron and Scorpion. These guys should be toned down a little bit.
 

jokey77

Character Loyalist
I also think f+4,3 string of Liu Kang is so good. Of course playing online this shit is f**g cheap. The GAP between f+4,3 and u+3 should be at least 1-2 frames bigger. With >100ms of ping these 4 options are a russian roulette very hard to punish.
1- f+4,3,u+3
2- f+4,3, db+1
3- f+4,3, db+1 amp
4- f+4,3, throw
This is quite misleading. Liu Kang does NOT have a 25/25/25/25 mindgame.

The gap after f43 can always be used for a counter with d3. Once this starts happening, Liu has to start throwing unsafe fireballs.

The risk/reward does not (!) favour Liu Kang. The defender could only use d3 and block and have better odds.

Thus it is a 50/50 at best and none, that Liu wants to use.

F4 and F43 is more of a mindgame.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
About Sonya, I don't see her as S+ tier. Her neutral and close range are not very good. You beat 90% of her moveset with d+1/d+3 of every char, even if you are in negative frames.
It's always at significant risk to you though, because if she baits your button and times her punish you're eating 30+% into having to get through her zoning again, or her being next to you again, whichever she chooses.

It's not like you just straight-up "beat" her offense, it's just a mind game of which one of you makes the correct read. You make the right read, you hit her with a poke and get to apply offense while she blocks. You make the wrong read, a third of your life is gone.
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
A: Jacqui, Liu Kang, Cetrion, Noob, Jax (this tier is kind of like, really good at one thing and not so good at the other. For example, Jax and Jacqui dominate up close, but get hardcore zoned out
Which characters have "hardcore zoning" to zone out Jacqui and Jax?

Jacqui has a safe, half-screen, krushing blow dash punch that hits high, which stops you from moving back because you want to neutral crouch and punish, but she has b+2 to punish neutral crouchers from a distance.

Jax's dash punch hits mid from a distance and has krushing blow properties while the EX version transitions into a high command grab, creating a 50/50 mix up. However, both options are full combo punishable if you guess correctly (i.e., crouch block to block the mid or neutral crouch to avoid the command grab). He has one of the best wave dashes in the game so there is no need for this risky and low-rewarding mix up.
 

Wrath0594

Steam profile: 76561198102032134
Tier lists are supposed to be based on how many matchups a character wins or loses.

Guaranteed no one knows or has enough matchup experience right now to declare dozens of matchup numbers.

Is there a way we could mature into talking about strengths and weaknesses, without having to force stuff into a predefined tier list less than a month into the game? @Slips mentioned something like this recently and he was 100% right. We should just talk meta.
This can’t be said enough.
 

ZeroSymbolic

W.A.S.P.
The top 5 are so good that they play a fundamentally different game than the rest of the cast. I’m sitting out until that’s fixed because I don’t really like any of those characters.
 

STB Sgt Reed

Online Warrior
Which characters have "hardcore zoning" to zone out Jacqui and Jax?

Jacqui has a safe, half-screen, krushing blow dash punch that hits high, which stops you from moving back because you want to neutral crouch and punish, but she has b+2 to punish neutral crouchers from a distance.

Jax's dash punch hits mid from a distance and has krushing blow properties while the EX version transitions into a high command grab, creating a 50/50 mix up. However, both options are full combo punishable if you guess correctly (i.e., crouch block to block the mid or neutral crouch to avoid the command grab). He has one of the best wave dashes in the game so there is no need for this risky and low-rewarding mix up.
Cetrion, Jade, Liu Kang, Skarlet, Kabal.

I play jax thanks to not being a fan of sub in this game and cetrion in particular is a pain in the ass. I never said it wasn't doable, it is. But I'm not doing it with dash punch. That's inviting a full combo punish.
 
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Matix218

Get over here!
Which characters have "hardcore zoning" to zone out Jacqui and Jax?

Jacqui has a safe, half-screen, krushing blow dash punch that hits high, which stops you from moving back because you want to neutral crouch and punish, but she has b+2 to punish neutral crouchers from a distance.

Jax's dash punch hits mid from a distance and has krushing blow properties while the EX version transitions into a high command grab, creating a 50/50 mix up. However, both options are full combo punishable if you guess correctly (i.e., crouch block to block the mid or neutral crouch to avoid the command grab). He has one of the best wave dashes in the game so there is no need for this risky and low-rewarding mix up.
Noob Saibot has "hardcore zoning", afterall, he was billed in the Kombat Kast as a "premier zoning character"
 

DixieFlatline78

Everyone Has A Path
The primary issue I have with this game is that it really is imbalanced. Not in the sense that there are unviable characters and excessively powerful characters though. Theres an imbalance of risk/reward. Like, fifteen characters designed to be fun, ten to be balanced. The ten have strong tools and mind games that become strong when you properly condition the opponent.

Raiden has this cool corner mind game where you end a combo early with b2. You threaten the second b2 and read their wakeup to punish accordingly. That's a really fun and satisfying setup to apply. Sonya however gets a similar corner 50/50 with similar damage. Its built into a string, they cant wakeup out of it and she doesnt have to spend a KB.

Shao Kahn has this buff that's really hard to get out, but buffs the damage on certain normals and leads to a one time near 50% combo. But Scorpion has a buff that buffs all his damage, comes out faster, is already unlikely to get stuffed since he always had the threat to teleport, and leads to slightly less damage, but without a KB

It's like the low tier characters are all pretty thoughtfully designed, but why play them when this other character uses roughly the same plan but way better? Why play KL when you can play Scorpion? Better teleport, better stagger pressure, similar damage, better KBs. Why play Kano when you can play Sub Zero? Why play Johnny Cage when you can play Liu Kang? Why play Kotal Kahn when you can play Geras?

Dont get me wrong, I do enjoy my low tier characters, and I'll probably stick with one of them as a second. But I've already had more consistent results with my day 1 Liu Kang
 

zHawken

Would you settle for me sausage?
3. Noob being a high tier character
This. To anyone still saying Noob is high tier character; literally take a few seconds to check his frame data. He loses his turn when he THINKS about pressing a button lmao.

Also I'd like to add the comment about KL being S tier
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
I think Skarlet is mid tier, she doesn't feel that strong, but after playing a lot lately specially against the top tiers, i can see she doesn't feel that week either, everyone in the mid tier seem to be able to catch up the other ones, though it takes just slightly more work, its not that much big of a difference