What's new

Tournament Locked Presets Will Impact This Games Longevity The Most

Again, constructive criticism is an entirely separate topic. Here's a healthy mindset:

"Ask for what you want -- but make the best of what you have."

This is the mentality that sustained and grew the FGC over many years. What it means is that you're free to not like certain things, give feedback, say what you'd change, etc. But that you don't take it as a source of entitlement and conditionally support your own community only when you get exactly what you want. This is the mentality that grew Smash, Street Fighter, etc.

Believe it or not, it is possible to both give feedback on things you'd like to see changed, while still fully supporting a game for as long as possible. And that's the mentality we need to have if we want to continue to grow. Otherwise, if we keep shooting ourselves in the foot every single time certain people are not 100% satisfied with some aspect of a game (and people will never, ever be 100% happy with any competitive game -- that's just common sense), then we will keep killing our own momentum with every new game.
This is very well put and I agree with everything here to the tee. Perfect elaboration on what you meant. I think that is exactly the balance everyone should take into consideration for sure.
 

SUPAHJD

Horror Guest Shill
#scrubquotes
I mean, yeah. You can act like a dick about it or you can understand some people like a cleaner, tighter game.

If you like your random ass variations so bad, you can always play them in different modes. You just can't tourney it.
 

Kiss the Missile

Red Messiah
I think the biggest problem was the beta. They let us try out these custom moves, and waited until we were done discussing, experimenting, and optimizing to tell us that they wont be allowed. If we would have known from the jump it wouldn't feel as deflating.
 

pure.Wasted

'ello baby, did you miss me?
Tournament variations were obviously a rushed afterthought and it's a joke that we're being forced to adhere to them.

It's like making pro Hearthstone or MtG players use pre-made default decks only.

There are zero arguments for locked tournament variations that hold up under even the lightest scrutiny.
FGC players are given shit and call it cake. In no other video game genre would you hear the excuse "but it would be harder to balance" bandied about. Motherfucker, if it's harder to balance, then you hold the developers to it and you criticize them until they do a good enough job. And if they don't do a good enough job then you don't buy the DLC and you don't buy the next game. It's like some weird-ass version of battered wife syndrome over here, "sure it's not perfect but it's the best I can get."
 

MadPropz101

"I still got it...but not much of it"
This game feels unfinished as hell because of the preset variations and the fact that some characters just have terrible frame data in their base movesets.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
FGC players are given shit and call it cake. In no other video game genre would you hear the excuse "but it would be harder to balance" bandied about. Motherfucker, if it's harder to balance, then you hold the developers to it and you criticize them until they do a good enough job. And if they don't do a good enough job then you don't buy the DLC and you don't buy the next game. It's like some weird-ass version of battered wife syndrome over here, "sure it's not perfect but it's the best I can get."
This is mostly because most other competitive games have a ton of classes/heroes and they literally just ban the ones that are broken/unbalanced for the moment.

Then you have other games like CS:GO/CoD where there are no characters and everybody just plays the same stuff. You have a few weapons/gear options and that's it.

In a game with 100 heroes you have far fewer loyalists competitively. The MOBA mindset is that heroes are shallower, and if you can't play your favorite hero in the league you just pick another who basically fills the same role.

If we could just ban a hero for a tournament because we felt like it or the moves were unbalanced, it'd be a different conversation. But the FGC has a different mentality that's built on having less characters to play, but at least attempting to make it so that you can play whoever you want and have a decent shot.

I'm not going to say whether custom variations would be balanced or not -- but the point is, it's apples and oranges.
 

pure.Wasted

'ello baby, did you miss me?
In a game with 100 heroes you have far fewer loyalists competitively. The MOBA mindset is that heroes are shallower, and if you can't play your favorite hero in the league you just pick another who basically fills the same role.

If we could just ban a hero for a tournament because we felt like it or the moves were unbalanced, it'd be a different conversation. But the FGC has a different mentality that's built on having less characters to play, but at least attempting to make it so that you can play whoever you want and have a decent shot.
Well first of all, this is only a sound argument if we assume that custom variations will make balancing characters harder instead of easier, which is not a safe assumption to make. Especially not if NRS intends for casual mode to be somewhat balanced -- and there's no reason it shouldn't be; even the notoriously lazy and incompetent Hearthstone devs balance for Wild (the "anything goes" mode). If HS devs are held to a higher standard than you, that's not a good sign. And balancing ranked and kasual separately would obviously be more difficult than balancing a single mode with kustoms enabled.

And second, re: the low number of characters letting fighting games off the hook...

The ultimate low character competitive game is StarCraft with just 3 races. No one would ever think to say "there shouldn't be this many units because it makes the game too hard to balance and I need terran to be playable." And believe you me race loyalists in SC are much more loyalist than character loyalists in any fighting game. But still those games are designed to reward both creative freedom and exceptional skill.

Meanwhile NRS just gets a "get out of working hard free" card because it MIGHT be HARD to balance custom variations -- not even impossible, just hard, and no guarantee, just might?

I don't think there are two ways to look at this. I think players are wrong for accepting anything short of the standards set by other competitive games and genres.

This isn't the only way in which I've found FG players to be uniquely weird and set in their ways, to the detriment of the games they play, but it's the only one that's relevant to this conversation so I'll leave the rest for another time.

Edit: replaced OW comparison with StarCraft
 
Last edited:

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
Premium Supporter
Tbh I think the issue is the tournament presets not being the default ones. Yes I know it’s not hard to make them in Kustomize but a lot of the casuals don’t know this information. They just see that the variations they’ve been practicing aren’t available in ranked as well as their kustom variations. And splitting the casuals from the competitive players isn’t the greatest idea for growth, imo.
 

Lt. Boxy Angelman

I WILL EAT THIS GAME
Tournament variations were obviously a rushed afterthought and it's a joke that we're being forced to adhere to them.

It's like making pro Hearthstone or MtG players use pre-made default decks only.

There are zero arguments for locked tournament variations that hold up under even the lightest scrutiny.
^^^ All of this. Set variations COULD have been a-okay and make this a totally different conversation if they'd actually been put together in a way that wasn't rushed as fuck.
 
Tbh I think the issue is the tournament presets not being the default ones.
I don't think it matters that they're not default, just that they're not added to variation lineup. I don't see why they couldn't have have just added them as extras and mark them with a trophy to show they're the tournament ones.

They've got the option to add as many(?) as they want, yet there's a number of preset ones including tournament ones but only 2 as default?
 

grandabx

The Flameater
There's literally no excuse to not use customs.

All that needs to be done is to make a little unique symbol for each special move. Players are able to see what customs have been selected at the versus screen and the symbols would be underneath the stamina bar during the match. All of the moves can be labbed just by going into the training mode. It's no different than Tekken players labbing the cast or a Starcraft 2 player researching on units.

NRS can create a Tournament mode that allows tournament organizers to easily set up. The options for players on the UI would be like a single screen, where once you pick an option, that same space is used for the next option in ascending order:

  1. Pick a character
  2. Pick a basic skin and color
  3. Pick custom moves
  4. Controller configuration
  5. Stage is locked on random select
  6. Pause is disabled until after the winner of the match is announced
With a 20 second time limit, that's plenty of time once people are familiar with their preferences. If the time expires, the game will automatically pick a preset randomly.

In Marvel, they go through similar:

  1. Choose a mode
  2. Pick three characters
  3. Choose a color for each character
  4. Choose an assist type for each character
  5. Choose a stage
If you watch pros play, they get through that process in less than 12 seconds.

If hundreds of people can sit down and watch a single game of Starcraft 2 for 15-40 minutes, what is 20 seconds for selection options? These other esport games aren't having any time issues with way more to consider.

To avoid any counter-picking nonsense, just provide the option for blind picking at the start. That way, only the versus screen and actual match will show what is selected. It's like a very brief version of the fog of war.

This game was obviously rushed out for Evo and to avoid bumping into other games releasing. What I don't understand is the logic of thinking NRS can balance customs faster than tens of thousands of people with a ridiculously large amount of communication tools.

It's currently slightly more than three months before Evo and it's the perfect time to iron out all the presentation and gameplay issues as a community. They have here a revolutionary system that will put their game in the front row easily, but are going to waste it and potentially stagnate the game faster than any MK game before it. Everything advertised was all about "play how you want" from the kombat kast to the betas, but now they're flip-flopping like Mitt Romney. When it comes to match-ups, a player may need a specific tool or combination of, but can't because they are handcuffed with presets. Never has there been a fighting game where you can tweak gameplay on a micro level. It's already here, but just needs some adjustments for convenience.

Why split up the the community's pro standard way of playing? More people, more competition. Most stat issues can be handled with a hotfix.
 

Error404

Noob
The only thing that consistantly increases longevity in games is a good ranked system imo. Much less interesting and much less balanced games have had longer life cycles than NRS games. I think that the reason for it. That and dropping games like hot potatoes when the next one comes out.
 

Xelz

Go over there!
Well, MK11 is review bombed down to 2.6 on metacritic and is already $10 off at retailers. Not that I agree with that low of a score, but there were some areas that could definitely use improvement. Given the “emergency” Kombat cast last week, it appears some criticism and fresh ideas are duly warranted.

And I want this game to succeed. But for that to happen we can’t say that we should just enjoy what we have. Clearly a big chunk of paying customers aren’t enjoying what’s on offer.
 

Syd Barrett Lives

Italian Psychopath
Is that because of the tournament related options, or is it the grind of the krypt to unlock things? I'm thinking it's the latter.

I think it's both, two face of the same coin. A game heavily marketed on customization but you can't really enjoy it fully because you're locked out of customizing abilities if you play ranked and locked out of customizing cosmetics unless you partake in a lot of single player grind and RNG.

They had a great idea but they implemented it in the worst ways possible.
 

grandabx

The Flameater
Sounds like someone's afraid of having to actually learn more.

Whenever you're ready to elaborate on why customs wouldn't be balanced, I'll oblige you.

Don't just go throwing out empty statements and expect to get away with it.
 

Syd Barrett Lives

Italian Psychopath
Actually, if you think about it, the game is already pre-balanced for custom variations, that's why you have three slots and different slot costs on moves. And it's not like every characters has 30, they're 10 moves at most.
It's just a matter of learning match-ups and maybe, as the meta develops, changing some slot costs or nerf/buff some moves. I don't think it would be this impossible to balance.

Honestly, as a fighting game fan, I'd love to see which variations the top players come up with and how they interact with each other, with a system this creative and versatile I think it would result in some pretty fun stuff.
 

THTB

Arez | Booya | Riu48 - Rest Easy, Friends
What's wrong with a 50/50 game?
Literally what everyone felt at the beginning of MKX's lifespan. There was a lot of discontent with the game being so built around 50/50s and excessively plus pressure. That is a huge reason why, by the time MKXL dropped, a lot of that was altered.

50/50s still exist in MK11, but they are far less dangerous mixups.

Also, I don't think MK11 needs customs. Not yet, at least. I want them, don't get me wrong. But I don't even think MK11 itself is completely ready for the potential issues that brings into the game. It was never designed around custom movesets from the start, and NRS made that known.
 
Last edited:

THTB

Arez | Booya | Riu48 - Rest Easy, Friends
Again, constructive criticism is an entirely separate topic. Here's a healthy mindset:

"Ask for what you want -- but make the best of what you have."

This is the mentality that sustained and grew the FGC over many years. What it means is that you're free to not like certain things, give feedback, say what you'd change, etc. But that you don't take it as a source of entitlement and conditionally support your own community only when you get exactly what you want. This is the mentality that grew Smash, Street Fighter, etc.

Believe it or not, it is possible to both give feedback on things you'd like to see changed, while still fully supporting a game for as long as possible. And that's the mentality we need to have if we want to continue to grow. Otherwise, if we keep shooting ourselves in the foot every single time certain people are not 100% satisfied with some aspect of a game (and people will never, ever be 100% happy with any competitive game -- that's just common sense), then we will keep killing our own momentum with every new game.
Spot on.
 

HAMMER

Noob
Literally what everyone felt at the beginning of MKX's lifespan. There was a lot of discontent with the game being so built around 50/50s and excessively plus pressure. That is a huge reason why, by the time MKXL dropped, a lot of that was altered.

50/50s still exist in MK11, but they are far less dangerous mixups.

Also, I don't think MK11 needs customs. Not yet, at least. I want them, don't get me wrong. But I don't even think MK11 itself is completely ready for the potential issues that brings into the game. It was never designed around custom movesets from the start, and NRS made that known.
Thanks breh.

I remember you beating me badly with Reptile back in MKX.

Can't say the same for Sonic Fox / Tom Brady / Scar because I actually beat these guys a few times (I beat Scar more than he beat me).

Props to your Reptilian skills.

Too bad he isn't in this game!

And no, I'm not better than any of these guys!!

Just stating you were my most difficult fighter in MKX. I don't even think I beat you once.

:DOGE