Top 10 and Bottom 5

[Mandolore1123]

I'm not gonna argue this much coz i dont play Raiden but i go here by Sonic word which said Joker destroys Raiden.

Sonic’s been known to have some weird takes but I’ve never heard of this one before.

 

[Immortal]

I'm not sure exactly now when (few weeks back if i remember correctly) it was but he was talking with Rewind on many MUs on stream. The summary was Joker has no real losing MUs, few even at worst and when they talked Raiden he said "Joker destroys him". Doesn't really matter everybody has their own take on MUs, i just agree with him on Joker MUs overal.

 

[DoDaMuSiC]

How do you think Dvorah compares to her MKX incarnation?

She’s a lot worse, mkx Dvorah at some point was a top 3 character with insane pressure, at the end of the game’s life she still is a solid mid tier. Mk11 Dvorah has always been a bottom 10 character and pretty much all of her wins comes from people not knowing the mu

 

[Arqwart]

Okay, I can see that.

But Kitana?

It may just be me, but I think Kitana is very clunky and limited. It's been downhill from her after MK9, and now I just cannot play her anymore.

The main thing that gets Kitana one slot higher than Skarlet is her Krushing Blow power. She's basically swimming in KBs. D2, slice, punish, and armor-break ass are all pretty damn good. There's also the occasional F234 and B231D2 KBs that land, even against the likes of Sonic. Kitana may not be able to open anyone up or stagger worth a shit due to her mediocre normals, dial-ins, and non-existent backdash; but she can still blow up chunks of a health bar with KBs pretty consistently.

I wouldn't put too much stock into Skarlet being "worse" than Kitana in my list. They're right next to each other. Here's a good visualization.

 

[xKhaoTik]

It's been downhill from her after MK9, and now I just cannot play her anymore.

I can understand this game but what about MKX? She was easily a top 10 character in that game, probably even top 5

 

[Juxtapose]

I can understand this game but what about MKX? She was easily a top 10 character in that game, probably even top 5

@Pizza didn't like how she played in that game at all, as I recall.

 

[Pizza]

@Pizza didn't like how she played in that game at all, as I recall.

Yeah, I only used the Assassin Variation and still felt a bit incomplete. It was way more viable than MK11 Kitana, that's for sure.

 

[Pizza]

The main thing that gets Kitana one slot higher than Skarlet is her Krushing Blow power. She's basically swimming in KBs. D2, slice, punish, and armor-break ass are all pretty damn good. There's also the occasional F234 and B231D2 KBs that land, even against the likes of Sonic. Kitana may not be able to open anyone up or stagger worth a shit due to her mediocre normals, dial-ins, and non-existent backdash; but she can still blow up chunks of a health bar with KBs pretty consistently.

I wouldn't put too much stock into Skarlet being "worse" than Kitana in my list. They're right next to each other. Here's a good visualization.
View attachment 18198

Nice! Interesting.

Omg the whole KP3 at the bottom :eyesemoji:

 

[Zgf]

The main thing that gets Kitana one slot higher than Skarlet is her Krushing Blow power. She's basically swimming in KBs. D2, slice, punish, and armor-break ass are all pretty damn good. There's also the occasional F234 and B231D2 KBs that land, even against the likes of Sonic. Kitana may not be able to open anyone up or stagger worth a shit due to her mediocre normals, dial-ins, and non-existent backdash; but she can still blow up chunks of a health bar with KBs pretty consistently.

I wouldn't put too much stock into Skarlet being "worse" than Kitana in my list. They're right next to each other. Here's a good visualization.
View attachment 18198

I didn't get a chance to read the rest of the thread yet, but I wanted to ask some questions about this list.

Why is Sub above characters like Spawn, Lao and Jade? Notable Sub players I've interacted and spoken with, like Train, Prime, NK, etc. list him just outside of Top 10 simply because of the fact that the characters I name have tools that literally do better than Sub's tools.

Jade's Delia Dance makes it much more difficult to actually poke back against her with Sub's laughable d1 and decent d3, has glow which, if activated from knockdown or full screen, will negate Sub's iceballs and out footsies him. Once Lao gets in on Sub, it's incredibly difficult to actually get him off. Every poke or string could lead into a potential full combo, he's incredibly difficult for Sub to actually AA and he has better pokes/pressure than Sub. Spawn just outfootsies Sub, does better damage and has another dumb poke-into-special GetOutOfJail free card. Can also negate Sub's iceballs on read with his cape charge special.

 

[DoDaMuSiC]

Why is Sub above characters like Spawn, Lao and Jade? Notable Sub players I've interacted and spoken with, like Train, Prime, NK, etc. list him just outside of Top 10 simply because of the fact that the characters I name have tools that literally do better than Sub's tools.

Because people will lose to 50/50 and call the character broke. Sub is definitely not top 5 and arguably not even top 10

 

[lordlosh]

1 - Liu Kang is definitely number 1 from the very beginning and i have state it from the very first day.
Best set of viable KBs, which so much 100% to land on every single set. Throw KBs, which is a huge thing(he had on both), so good luck with the guessing. Now he also have a CG, and a a damage buff(nice joke), best anti-air ING, Top 2 Zoning ING, thanks to his low fireball, and his AMP on all of his Fireballs, that pretty much make you take cheap all the time, he also have the best anti-zoning and kinda the best counter move in the game with his Flying Dragon Kick, that you can even AMP, he has top 3 best FB ing, and is top 3 pressure character as well with 1 of the best mid, that can mix your * big time. And let's not forget his 1-2 wake up is insane. As well as his FB attacks, which are probably the best ING. He had very good range, and his wave dash is very good.
He is also the easiest character to use, and he is super easy to hit confirm anything, which is also a big thing, cause every time you connect, you will combo it.
For me he is way better than Cetrion and Joker, and counter both of them perfectly. And Jacqui compare to him is a a flower.
2 - Jacqui
3 - Cetrion
4 - Fujin
5 - Joker
6 - Kabal(a lot of people sleep on him)
6 - Geras
7 - Jax(same with Kabal)
8 - Spawn(can be devastating in the right hand)
9 - Kung Lao(people sleep on him)
10 - Baraka(people sleep on him tho)
I also think that character like D'Vorah, Kotal can be pretty dangerous at the right hands.
Jade is super annoying at low - mid level of gameplay, but if you know how to handle it, she ain't nothing special, and has zero comeback potential, and can be destroyed by pressuring her.
Sub is super strong Online as well.

As top 5 bottom:
1 - Rambo
2 - Mileena
3 - Shao Khan
4 - Scarlet
5 - Terminator/Frost

 

[Johncage]

My top 10 are as follows in no order:
Jacqui
Cetrion
Joker
Liu Kang
Johnny Cage
Fujin
Cassie Cage
Sub-Zero
Kano
Kotal Kahn

My bottom 5 are in no order:
Robocop
Shao Kahn
Mileena
Rambo
Scorpion

 

[Komatose]

You guys are forgetting Skarlet in your top 10s

Just saying

The Skarlet with the trash overhead and trash KB’s and barely okay-ish zoning? Can’t be that Skarlet in your top 10. Unless you mean top 10 trash characters.

 

[xRantex]

Raiden has to play extremely safe to win I also agree with mileena being bad of course.

I'm gonna say Raiden or frost, sheeva, mileena, robocop and Rambo.

 

[xKhaoTik]

Raiden has to play extremely safe to win I also agree with mileena being bad of course.

I'm gonna say Raiden or frost, sheeva, mileena, robocop and Rambo.

Sheeva? I know her stomp got nerfed but with all the other tools she has, I don’t see how she’s bad

 

[xRantex]

Sheeva? I know her stomp got nerfed but with all the other tools she has, I don’t see how she’s bad

Yeah I'm not entirely sure just based off my experiences online.. but the others like mileena and robocop are for sure bad.

 

[Mandolore1123]

Raiden has to play extremely safe to win I also agree with mileena being bad of course.

I'm gonna say Raiden or frost, sheeva, mileena, robocop and Rambo.

Raiden is not bottom 5. He goes even or beats 95% of the cast including the current top tiers. You’re just forced into this weird walk back runaway playstyle and your 5-5 MU falls apart if you make 1 mistake

 

[xRantex]

Raiden is not bottom 5. He goes even or beats 95% of the cast including the current top tiers. You’re just forced into this weird walk back runaway playstyle and your 5-5 MU falls apart if you make 1 mistake

Raiden is not top ten either. And I said Raiden or frost.. yeah you're forced alright.

 

[Mandolore1123]

Raiden is not top ten either. And I said Raiden or frost.. yeah you're forced alright.

He's not top 10 but he's definitely not bottom 5. He's extremely strong in the current build, but only if you're able to play patiently.

 

[Popegina]

I'm confused. All I've seen since she arrived is people bitching about losing to Sheeva, but she's low tier? Lmao

 

[xRantex]

Offline Raiden is nowhere to be found for a simple reason that on really high level he isn't that good and Joker in good players hand (offline) destroys him like almost any character in the game.

I agree.

 

[Espio]

I don't really like labelling characters bottom five because it gives this weird connotation that they are not worth using which I think is not true of the bottom five so yeah....

Top 10:
Jacqui
Cetrion
Joker
Fujin
Liu Kang
Kabal
Geras
Johnny Cage
Sub-Zero
Kano


The perception of Robocop still being bottom five is fascinating though considering how much he can out turtle a large portion of the roster and his zoning is strong against a large portion of the roster sans niche counters. He also has health advantages over most of the cast that allow him to win zoning wars and command grab insures that he will never have an issue opening the opponent up either due to it being mid and once he conditions you to not block he can come in and combo you into your grave and send you back to full screen.

 

[xRantex]

He's not top 10 but he's definitely not bottom 5. He's extremely strong in the current build, but only if you're able to play patiently.

I wouldn't say EXTREMELY strong especially with playing patient. I've only ran into 5 or 6 Raiden's online the lowest number of any character and he's barely represented in tournaments. He has some tools that allows him to play safe ish/honest (in a game full of crazy kbs etc).

 

[Juxtapose]

I don't really like labelling characters bottom five because it gives this weird connotation that they are not worth using which I think is not true of the bottom five so yeah....

My impression is that while this game absolutely has Tiers, its balance is still quite strong enough that most any character can be viable to use. Close to, but not quite like the level of balance we see in Killer Instinct.

In that game, every character, even bottom Tiers, are tournament viable. Sadira is largely considered the worst character in that game, yet played well, she can and will place Top 8 in a tournament.

 

[Mandolore1123]

I wouldn't say EXTREMELY strong especially with playing patient. I've only ran into 5 or 6 Raiden's online the lowest number of any character and he's barely represented in tournaments. He has some tools that allows him to play safe ish/honest (in a game full of crazy kbs etc).

Representation has nothing to do with strength. Raiden is still a very good character in the current build. He straight up beats upgraded jacqui and 5-5s Cetrion. The only 2 characters that can really give him trouble are Geras and Fujin.