Tom Brady's MK9 Matchup Chart (2/17)

[Enenra]

I feel like it is in reptile's favor. Dash, and even d4 acid hand are good knee jerk reactions to teleport. Maybe 6-4, or 5.5

Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk

Yeah, I agree

 

[Dark_Rob]

I couldn't agree more.

I trust Tom's opinion on Sub Zero, but Sub really isn't that bad.

Sub Zero has ways to pressure that Tom just doesn't use because he knows the risks involved. Example, , , ..., it takes conditioning and guess work/reads, and thats something he has to come to terms with, all rush down is based off that, I even said it on the Kombat Tomb the last time I was on, Tom knows so much about the game and because of that he becomes a victim of his own knowledge, every where he looks, he just sees Red flags, and Red Flags that the opponent may not necessarily be aware of, and in my observation of him, stunts his ventures in going forward and pressing with the character. Ignorance is bliss, and with Sub Zero's rush down, it really is.

Sub is as bad as Tom says. How many characters are there in this game that have a stupidly low hitbox when crouching? 5? 6? 7? ive lost count but its alot. Do you know what happens when you try to pressure a low hitbox character with 2,1? Thats right, get raped. 2 whiffs and Sub gets blown up by uppercuts or counter pokes. Subs offense is a figment of his own imagination against these characters. Unless of course you think D4, and only D4 qualifies as solid offense? I really dont.
And taking advantage of your opponent not knowing about Subs "red flags" and how to blow him up doesnt make Sub a better character. It just means the opponent doesnt know how to fight him.
Sub struggles against zoners, turtlers, characters with high mobility, and any character with a low crouching hitbox. Now how many characters are there in the game that have at least one of these attributes?
Sub was not always this bad, hes lost alot, and I mean ALOT over the course of the games various patches.

 

[RTM2004]

Yeah looks good. For the Mil part theres some stuff there i dont agree with.

I think Mileena (Jax 5-5) (CSZ 6-4) (Liu Kang 5-5) (Raiden 5-5). Sub-Zero (6-4), rest looks real accurate truthfully for Mileena. I'm still puzzled why Smoke is way up there, is it because of his F4 Smoke Bomb Resets, if those were to be nerfed, where would he be placed then?

 

[Tolkeen]

Not gonna read 12 pages to find if this has been said before....
Kenshi vs Kabal is Kenshi's worst matchup, the chart has it as a 6 in Kenshi's favor, and there is no way that that is true.
I'm guessing it's a typo, it should probably be 6-4 in Kabal's favor.

 

[RTM2004]

Kenshi... that character gives me nightmares. He's 6/7 against all my characters >.<

 

[Bidu]

Doesn't Reptile beat Raiden? Dash makes his superman whiff, punishes tele, acid spit beats lightning bolt, etc.

NO one beats Raiden, man. lol

 

[SZSR]

I think Mileena (Jax 5-5) (CSZ 6-4) (Liu Kang 5-5) (Raiden 5-5). Sub-Zero (6-4), rest looks real accurate truthfully for Mileena. I'm still puzzled why Smoke is way up there, is it because of his F4 Smoke Bomb Resets, if those were to be nerfed, where would he be placed then?

After Smoke lost his OTG damage, he was most consistently placed in higher mid-tier. He still has great tools, but it's mainly his damage from the Reset that lets him fight toe to toe with the top tier now.

 

[Enenra]

After Smoke lost his OTG damage, he was most consistently placed in higher mid-tier. He still has great tools, but it's mainly his damage from the Reset that lets him fight toe to toe with the top tier now.

I think his mobility, his safeness, his pokes, his counter zoning make him top tier. The reset isn't even a factor as it will hopefully be gone soon, but Smoke will stay top 5.

 

[UsedForGlue]

Sub is as bad as Tom says. How many characters are there in this game that have a stupidly low hitbox when crouching? 5? 6? 7? ive lost count but its alot. Do you know what happens when you try to pressure a low hitbox character with 2,1? Thats right, get raped. 2 whiffs and Sub gets blown up by uppercuts or counter pokes. Subs offense is a figment of his own imagination against these characters. Unless of course you think D4, and only D4 qualifies as solid offense? I really dont.
And taking advantage of your opponent not knowing about Subs "red flags" and how to blow him up doesnt make Sub a better character. It just means the opponent doesnt know how to fight him.
Sub struggles against zoners, turtlers, characters with high mobility, and any character with a low crouching hitbox. Now how many characters are there in the game that have at least one of these attributes?
Sub was not always this bad, hes lost alot, and I mean ALOT over the course of the games various patches.

I never said D4 was a qualifying solid offence, and/or his only one. And I agree, Yes you will get fucked up, IF you don't hit confirm his D4, same with any character with a good D4.

My point is this: When I use CSZ, sometimes I pressure with 21 and try to repeat my string on block with 212+1 because the opponent might try and counter with d4, d1, 6 frame jabs, armoured moves etc after the 21, and this time they will get launched by 2+1, now even though I know that the opponent can fuck me right up for repeating 21 on block, I can't live in the fear of that, I have to take risks and I have to condition, I can easily say that CSZ's rush down isn't that good, but thats coming from my point of view, as I know everything about the character, and constantly say to myself ''If only people knew how easy this was to get out of CSZ's rushdown, he would be even worse'', christ, even Sonya & Cage players say that about their characters.

Its a common thing to say that about your main character, because you truly know how the rush down works and where the character is punishable at all times, thus you can see ''red flags'', but you can't let that stint your own offence.

The low hit box thing, yea, I agree with that, that can be a total dick to fight against, but Sub zero isn't alone on that one.

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

Sub is as bad as Tom says. How many characters are there in this game that have a stupidly low hitbox when crouching? 5? 6? 7? ive lost count but its alot. Do you know what happens when you try to pressure a low hitbox character with 2,1? Thats right, get raped. 2 whiffs and Sub gets blown up by uppercuts or counter pokes. Subs offense is a figment of his own imagination against these characters. Unless of course you think D4, and only D4 qualifies as solid offense? I really dont.
And taking advantage of your opponent not knowing about Subs "red flags" and how to blow him up doesnt make Sub a better character. It just means the opponent doesnt know how to fight him.
Sub struggles against zoners, turtlers, characters with high mobility, and any character with a low crouching hitbox. Now how many characters are there in the game that have at least one of these attributes?
Sub was not always this bad, hes lost alot, and I mean ALOT over the course of the games various patches.

Wow I couldnt have said it better

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

I never said D4 was a qualifying solid offence, and/or his only one. And I agree, Yes you will get fucked up, IF you don't hit confirm his D4, same with any character with a good D4.

My point is this: When I use CSZ, sometimes I pressure with 21 and try to repeat my string on block with 212+1 because the opponent might try and counter with d4, d1, 6 frame jabs, armoured moves etc after the 21, and this time they will get launched by 2+1, now even though I know that the opponent can fuck me right up for repeating 21 on block, I can't live in the fear of that, I have to take risks and I have to condition, I can easily say that CSZ's rush down isn't that good, but thats coming from my point of view, as I know everything about the character, and constantly say to myself ''If only people knew how easy this was to get out of CSZ's rushdown, he would be even worse'', christ, even Sonya & Cage players say that about their characters.

Its a common thing to say that about your main character, because you truly know how the rush down works and where the character is punishable at all times, thus you can see ''red flags'', but you can't let that stint your own offence.

The low hit box thing, yea, I agree with that, that can be a total dick to fight against, but Sub zero isn't alone on that one.

But heres the problem. With cyber sub zero, if you guess right and finish the string, you get a launch, if the opponent gets hit by the end of subs string, they just get away for free and get to zone more. Sub zero is praying that his opponent is stupid enough to sit and block because otherwise he has to try and get in again unless he wants to guess link in an ice blast, and thats not gonna go well more than once or twice.

 

[STB Bodam]

Sub will always be Sub and Tom will akways say Sub is bottom tier -- that's just the way it is.

Of course, I don't mean any disrespect to Tom but he sees the flaws in the character. Fact of the matter is, most of us might put our character either a little lower or a little higher (depending on who you pick).

 

[Dark_Rob]

I never said D4 was a qualifying solid offence, and/or his only one. And I agree, Yes you will get fucked up, IF you don't hit confirm his D4, same with any character with a good D4.

My point is this: When I use CSZ, sometimes I pressure with 21 and try to repeat my string on block with 212+1 because the opponent might try and counter with d4, d1, 6 frame jabs, armoured moves etc after the 21, and this time they will get launched by 2+1, now even though I know that the opponent can fuck me right up for repeating 21 on block, I can't live in the fear of that, I have to take risks and I have to condition, I can easily say that CSZ's rush down isn't that good, but thats coming from my point of view, as I know everything about the character, and constantly say to myself ''If only people knew how easy this was to get out of CSZ's rushdown, he would be even worse'', christ, even Sonya & Cage players say that about their characters.

Its a common thing to say that about your main character, because you truly know how the rush down works and where the character is punishable at all times, thus you can see ''red flags'', but you can't let that stint your own offence.

The low hit box thing, yea, I agree with that, that can be a total dick to fight against, but Sub zero isn't alone on that one.

Believe me I hear what your saying, and I understand your point. My point is does that really make the character better? Because your opponent doesnt know how to blow him up? Believe me everytime i play someone im hoping they dont know, and yes alot of times I can get away with murder. But the fact is those weaknesses are still there, and in a matchup chart they have to be taken into account. Subs 2,1 pressure is a facade against alot of characters, and its worked for us for a long time. We do things like D4,D4,2,1,D4,2,1,21 etc. etc and people stand there and take it or try to guess they're way out, never realizing all they have to do is duck and then its not a guess anymore. D4 even on hit against a crouching opponent is a free jump away for the opponent. Or if I try to come in to pressure with 2,1/2,2 after D4, even if D4 hit, they can just mash uppercut and away I go. This is what I mean when I say Subs offense is all a trick. Just smoke and mirrors.
For a character like Subzero who has to spend half the match just trying to get in on you and getting blasted in the face all the while this is just to big a glaring weakness.
Subs standing 2 is wrong. Its a mid, its supposed to make contact whether your standing or crouching, and against normal hitbox characters like say Scorpion, it does. But Mileena,Sektor, Reptile, Sonya? Sub can really only D4 them or try to out footsie them. All of Subzeros pressure options stem from 2, whether 2,1 or 2,2. 2,2,4 or 2,1,2. They all start with 2. If the 2 whiffs and you eat an uppercut it doesnt really matter what you were going to do after 2.

 

[salvificblood]

Sub is as bad as Tom says. How many characters are there in this game that have a stupidly low hitbox when crouching? 5? 6? 7? ive lost count but its alot. Do you know what happens when you try to pressure a low hitbox character with 2,1? Thats right, get raped. 2 whiffs and Sub gets blown up by uppercuts or counter pokes. Subs offense is a figment of his own imagination against these characters. Unless of course you think D4, and only D4 qualifies as solid offense? I really dont.
And taking advantage of your opponent not knowing about Subs "red flags" and how to blow him up doesnt make Sub a better character. It just means the opponent doesnt know how to fight him.
Sub struggles against zoners, turtlers, characters with high mobility, and any character with a low crouching hitbox. Now how many characters are there in the game that have at least one of these attributes?
Sub was not always this bad, hes lost alot, and I mean ALOT over the course of the games various patches.

You have to take into consideration which of those low hitbox characters make Sub really suffer for not being able to consistently connect standing 2 on a crouching opponent. You're not going to be rushing Johnny Cage down, anyway, for example. Kitana, mileena, and Kung lao are all well-documented problem matchups, but they are problematic for more reasons than the 2 whiffing while they're in crouch block. They outzone and have better mobility than Sub-Zero.

This low hitbox issue is a problem for Sub-Zero, but we're making it seem like Sub is more toothless than he is. What you have to realise is that to whiff punish 21, your opponent has to be scouting for it like crazy, so any time you step in with d4, you can just cross him up while he's sitting in the crouch animation, you can even f4, iceball if he's going to remain in crouch block for the entire fight. If he wants to uppercut or poke early and you step outside of the range, there's your whiff punish. It's not ideal, but Sub is not so bad that you can just sit there in crouch block and always blow Sub up. That's all in theory but it doesn't work out that way.

 

[Dark_Rob]

You have to take into consideration which of those low hitbox characters make Sub really suffer for not being able to consistently connect standing 2 on a crouching opponent. You're not going to be rushing Johnny Cage down, anyway, for example. Kitana, mileena, and Kung lao are all well-documented problem matchups, but they are problematic for more reasons than the 2 whiffing while they're in crouch block. They outzone and have better mobility than Sub-Zero.

This low hitbox issue is a problem for Sub-Zero, but we're making it seem like Sub is more toothless than he is. What you have to realise is that to whiff punish 21, your opponent has to be scouting for it like crazy, so any time you step in with d4, you can just cross him up while he's sitting in the crouch animation, you can even f4, iceball if he's going to remain in crouch block for the entire fight. If he wants to uppercut or poke early and you step outside of the range, there's your whiff punish. It's not ideal, but Sub is not so bad that you can just sit there in crouch block and always blow Sub up. That's all in theory but it doesn't work out that way.

What? Scout it? No man, he doesnt have to scout it. This isnt theory, this is something Ive tested over and over at VSM. I have gone so far as to tell people I was beating, why Im beating them and what they can do to blow Sub up. I want you to really really try hard and imagine what its like to NEVER be able to use anything but d4 offensively. If you want to D4 and back up praying they actually do something so you didnt just give up your offense for no reason by all means. Hell that probably is the move because Sub has no offense in these matchups anyway so he might as well try and out footsie them. But its not theory dude. You try and come in for pressure against a low hitbox charcater, your getting blown up.

 

[Tong Lung]

look kid (cause lets be honest, thats what you are. who in GODS name made you a moderator is an idiot, lol), he threatened me first and i threatened him back, period. And no, you and that mortal kombat dork tom brady are wrong. I know about my character better than anybody wish they could. you know why bitch? cause i main him. And no matter how many dumbass patches he went through or nerfs i stuck by his side and still fought with him. So ban me, i don't give two shits about the kids and nerds that stick to the fucking high tiers on this gay ass website anyways. i'll be chatting offline with my REAL friends that have interests in better and more respectable characters. Oh and fuck noob,scorpion,reptile,sub-zero,sektor,cyrax,mileena,kitana,smoke,kung lao, and kenshi.

Got it?

By the way, why did he name himself after a fucking quarter-back? i'll be suprised if that [ban incoming] knew what football is.

This is what's wrong with the online "community".

 

[Z-911-Z]

Please, do not take that troll as a representative of me and the rest of the decent online community. He's an example of the general XBL community.

 

[truendymion]

Damn that Optimistman blowup was epic... Sorry just had to get it out of my system Anyways I'm happy to see Scorpion moving up. Not surprised by Sheeva's placement

I'm surprised Scorp v Kenshi is 6-4! I had some problems with him before, guess I need to reevaluate my strategy...

 

[MKF30]

I don't agree with QC and Cage being that low, no way...not as long as he has that damn zune trap and Cage his easy frame traps.

But good read though.

Scorp vs. Kenshi favors Scorp I think, I played Faded's kenshi last night and in the past have gotten him with Scorp and other Kenshi's, the hell fire is a key element in that match up and Scorp can do major damage if he can snag Kenshi. I agree with that totally.

 

[Zoidberg747]

JC is not as good offline as online. I think that is where people overrate him(he is still pretty damn good though).

 

[MKF30]

Yeah, the lag helps his frame traps no doubt. Like you said, still annoying though lol

 

[SZSR]

I think his mobility, his safeness, his pokes, his counter zoning make him top tier. The reset isn't even a factor as it will hopefully be gone soon, but Smoke will stay top 5.

While I agree wholeheartedly that those are great tools for him and are part of what make him a strong character, I disagree that he would still be top 5. He's disadvantaged with characters like Jax who can abuse his hitbox. Quite a few MUs in the chart which are 5-5 I believe are solely in that category because of his damage, like his MU against Kabal, if Kabal rushes Smoke down, he has his options like d3, d4 pokes and his :en Shake and :en Teleport Away to get out, but oftentimes Kabal ends up pushing Smoke into the corner, and a good Kabal will be aware of these options. Despite his greater mobility, Smoke really only keeps this matchup well kept full screen where he can buffer Shakes and minimize Kabal's meter building with his air fireballs, but it only slightly mitigates it as a rushdown Kabal can still build meter from chip, which is what Kabal does in this MU.

Smoke's mobility AND damage (from the reset and projectile punishes) are some of the only things that keep Kabal from getting reckless and greedy which keeps the match on edge. But if you saw the match of KT vs. REO, all REO had to do was stay in his face to win, and once he put KT in the corner, that's where it went badly for him. (No offense to KT's skills as a Smoke, he still gets my respect for going with his Smoke vs REO and I still consider him the best Smoke mainer right now)

I could comment on the Reptile MU being more 5.5 - 4.5 in Smoke's and the Cage matchup more like 5-5 but the Kabal MU is primarily a point of contention for me.

 

[CompletelyJaded]

Jade is so rubbish.

 

[salvificblood]

Jade is so rubbish.

Lol, she's rated above Sub-Zero in this matchup chart.

 

[Unreal6S]

that's why I'm a Raiden player