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TLOU2 Discussion Thread [NO LEAKS]

LaidbackOne

Scrubby nice guy
Fuck this game. All I can say after finishing it today, maybe I'll have something to add once I cool down a bit. It has so many structural and pacing issues its beyond me. I've never been so let down by a piece of media in my entire life and my expectations for videogames are usually as low as it gets.
 

Dankster Morgan

she don’t call me daddy she call me Grandmaster
Fuck this game. All I can say after finishing it today, maybe I'll have something to add once I cool down a bit. It has so many structural and pacing issues its beyond me. I've never been so let down by a piece of media in my entire life and my expectations for videogames are usually as low as it gets.
Pm me I wanna vent too
 

Vslayer

Kurses in moose
Moderator
Premium Supporter
the ending really sucks ass and it's so depressing and I hate it. Yes, let's have Ellie go through all this shit and then give her the most depressing ending known to man without a conclusion. YAY. fuck that. But I did love the journey part though and it's still a 9.5/10 for me. But DAMN that ending hits hard.
 
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I had the opportunity to play it at a friend's for a good amount of time before he returned the game to the video game retailer and I watched the whole playthrough on youtube.

The story is a huge mess, filled with plot holes.

Graphics are stunning, animations are realistic, the interaction with the environment is very immersive. The AI is good, the stealth is way better than Uncharted 4's. The enemy encounters are well designed for the most part. The attention to details is great.
Naming all NPCs and have the others react to their death by screaming their name is very immersive and give them more humanity, making you feel bad for killing them sometimes.

Gameplay is basically the same as TLOU, nothing really new. They introduced a jump button that is supposed to be useful somehow.
They slowed down the gameplay to make it more realistic at the expense of the dynamism it allowed in the first one. For exemple in TLOU you were able to manage some encounters by a rapid chain of moves like smashing an enemy to the head, directly throwing a brick to another one to stun him, headshot a third enemy and still have time to deal with the two other enemies while they were recovering from the hits. Here the character has to reach the holster with its gun, holster the gun, reaching the pocket/backpack for the brick/bottle and take the brick before being able to launch it. It takes like 1 second and a half and you lose precious time doing it. And I very liked the dynamism of the gameplay in the first game so this is a downgrade to me.
Even if the game is still linear, there are different ways to progress through the levels and I liked the idea of the semi-open world level at the beginning of the game just like in Uncharted: The Lost Legacy.

The story however is filled with plot holes and conveniences that takes you out of the immersion, everytime you are supposed to be shocked or emotionally involved by the events of the story you're just here wondering "Why the hell would he/she do that ?", "What a coincidence !", "What the fuck is happening" or just "Are you serious ?".
I've found the pacing really annoying in this game, sometimes when the story goes back in time to tell a flashback is really annoying and hurts the structure of the story. It doesn't bother me to go back in time but you have to time it well to not hurt both timelines. Sometimes you go back in time, play the flashback, and when you're done with it you just forgot what was your objective when you're back to the present time.
I wasn't invested in most of the new characters, especially when they take dumb decisions to make the plot happen. Even the established characters acts like in a dumb way to make the plot moving forward.
The new main "protagonist" is unlikable as hell due to her interactions with beloved characters, and playing half of the game with a character you hate is a pain in the ass, and the game tries but fails to make me feel empathy for her.
I see what Neil tried to do but it just doesn't work and it is poorly written for most of the game. Also the game is way too long for such an empty story. Most of the quests when playing as Abby are boring and just feels like filler quests in an RPG, and they last for loooong.

It baffles me that such a script has been approved and funded by Sony.
The game actually tries to make us feel guilty for being invested in its own characters. I still can't believe that the same guy wrote and directed TLOU part one wrote and directed this one too.
At least the acting was great, especially for the main characters.

Spoiler discussion :
I expected Joel to die in this game, and I was okay with it, but I can't believe how dirty and disrespectful his death was. I know that TLOU's world is ruthless and people are brutal, but it was a cheap way to make the player invested in the story, but the game was advertised to include Joel in the whole story (while he dies at like 10% into the story) and the game actually tries to make you feel bad about liking Joel and tries to make you like his murderer.
Abby was a character I had no empathy for, actually I hated her. I know this was intended but the game actually tries to give you empathy for herby telling you her story. It didn't work for me.
The script tries to deconstruct your love for Ellie by making her do awful actions : Killing a pregnant woman, the game makes you kill a dog and you can't avoid it (while Abby, the best character ever, plays with it, so cute). It is cheap writing right there.
Also I like how they tried multiple times to make "important" characters die in a snap of fingers, to have a shocking effect, but it works... only if you care about the characters in the first place, which is not my case. At Jesse's death I just laughed and I couldn't help but have a happy reaction to Manny's death (great shot Tommy)

Also the story was already painful enough, but when you're at the farm as Ellie and you think it is finally over, you still have like one hour in California. Yes it is good to see a different environment than Seattle but the story was exhausting and I just wanted it to end.
The ending feels pointless, all of that for NOTHING. Ellie is broken, she has lost Joel, Dina, Jesse and Tommy. She may have not have lost her farm, but she lost the will to live in it and she is physically wounded for life because she lost her fingers. She even have to leave her guitar, the last thing that remind her of Joel, because of that. And Abby ? Well, she is alive, has a reason to live and fight for with Lev (and the Fireflies), gets away with Joel's murder and, even if she gets through a lot of suffering to get to it, finally reach her goal. Ellie does not gain anything and lost everything from that story.
Don't get me wrong I understand the meaning of the ending, it is just that the writing punishes Ellie (and the player) after all that suffering and trials, and it's not deserved at all.

The best parts of the game to me were the flashbacks scenes, I could finally appreciate the alchemy between Joel and Ellie that made me love TLOU in the first place. The flashbacks are so well written that it proves that Neil Druckmann isn't a bad writer at all. However it made me even more bitter when I had to go back to this bleak revenge story. This is such a waste. It had fucking potential ! And they wasted it for the sake of "subversion".

The ending is really bad when you compare to the first one. After the first game's ending, there is so much to think about. You can ask yourself so many philisophical questions, you can have debates on was it the right thing to do or not. There was also Ellie's ambiguous "Okay", and you were left to wonder the true meaning of that simple word.

Like I said for the most part the story was bleak, it has some genuinely good peaks or great lines of dialogues but this is not good enough to make the story interesting to me.


Before giving my note i want to say that I respect and praise the work of the Naughty Dog employees, they did the best they could with the script that they were given. On a technical aspect the game is a solid 9/10, I didn't know the PS4 could handle such a game with so much detail yet they did it. The game has a lot of bugs (which was already a problem in the first game, even the remastered version on the last patch) but we can expect ND to patch most of them. Also the lack of locked 60 FPS should be noted and can frustrate some people (but I'm sure you'll release a 60 FPS remastered version of the game for the PS5 launch, right naughty dog ?).

For the game as a whole, it deserves a 6.5/10. It is bad for a game of this size and especially a studio like Naughty Dog, which has the funding and a huge group talented artists and programmers to create both an immersive world (which is the case in TLOU part 2) and an amazing story (which this game doesn't have).

But I'd also that I would have been WAY more harsh with my note if I took into account how Naughty Dogs/Sony handled the release of the game. They used copyright claims to shut down early criticism of the game when the leaks happened. While I understand the use of the copyright strikes to stop the leaks themselves, it is an absolute shame that they use copyright strikes to shut down early criticism, they took down videos that were talking about the leaks despite them not showing any leaked footage or images, just discussing them. And they also striked down Twitter accounts over memes, fucking memes ! It's censorship and misuse of the copyright claims. They even claimed their own trailer on Playstation's official account !
It's almost like the marketing team wasn't confident in the game's story, am I right ?

Talking about that, I'd like to point out the blatant false advertising of the game, showing in the trailers
models of older Joel and Ellie together, like they were both playing a great part of the game while joel dies within the 10% into the story mode, only playing him in the introduction of the prologue. I don't know how many people they tricked into buying the game with that, but it almost worked on me until I saw the leaks.
I'm glad that the leaks happened just for that.

That's all I had to say. Thank you for reading it, I hope you enjoyed the game, because I didn't.
 
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Dankster Morgan

she don’t call me daddy she call me Grandmaster
If you guys haven't bought it id wait till its inevitably on ps5, possibly even with a bundle
 

Saboteur-6

Filthy Casual
I played through it on hard and I'm glad I did because it made the combat more tactical. I thought the game was excellent despite its pacing issues and pIot shifts in Abby's chapters. I can't relate to a lot of the hate as this is probably one of my most favorite modern story driven games to date. I've never played a game like it and even dug the ending.

I didn't agree with everything in this video (especially the gameplay section) but there's several points in the story analysis I felt were spot on.

 
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Dankster Morgan

she don’t call me daddy she call me Grandmaster
This post is about TLOU 1 and how people think that Joel's decision to save Ellie from the Fireflies made him the villain. I would argue that was the ONLY heroic thing that Joel did the entire game and there was hardly any moral ambiguity to his decision. For one real reason....
  • The Fireflies are completely incompetent throughout the entire game barely being able to survive, certainly not seeming capable of mass producing a vaccine.
  • Since the Fireflies can barely even survive, why would they be able to pull of a surgery like this? What gives anyone the impression that they could make this work?
  • If it did work, how the hell could they mass produce the virus to get it to enough people to make even a slight dent at all in the infection.
  • If Ellie's immunity could be transmitted, there would still be millions-billions of infected out there still, the humans would do what the have been doing regardless and run their individual colonies to try and beat out other factions and survive the infected.
  • The dumb fuck doctor threatened Joel with a scalpel after this man just killed about 20 men by himself, what did he think would happen?
At worst, Ellie dies for nothing and there is no cure. At best, the cure works which I see as next to impossible especially based on the information Joel had, but it couldn't possibly save humanity for many reasons. I'm not saying Joel is a hero or wouldn't have done it even if the cure would magically save everyone in an instant, but that was certainly not the caseSo basically TLOU 1 is supposed to make the player feel selfish for doing that but relieved that Ellie survived, but honestly Joel made the 10000000% right decision here and there is hardly any ambiguity to it at all.

Spoilers for part 2....

Which is precisely why the second game treating Joel the way they did epically pissed me off. The one definite good thing the man did is portrayed as evil, when it was those dumb fuck incompetent Fireflies that couldn't even take care of themselves or kill one 50 year old man with a 50 pound backpack right after he was woken up after being knocked unconscious. Barely have any supplies for themselves, yet they think they can produce the cure? What the shit? Joel in the first game trusts nobody and will kill on sight if he feels even the slightest bit uneasy, but acts like a full blown (soap bar in my mouth) with Abby. Okay. I even like Abby decent enough, well written and layered character, although I feel her campaign wasn't as good as Ellie's. Ellie should have killed Abby, imagine if John Wick didn't avenge his puppy, for fucks sake. What bugs me about Abby is they changed traits about Joel, a pre established character, to prop her up. Joel dying doesn't even bother me, it makes sense for the narrative and this depressing ass world, but that was cheap shock value bullshit and Naughty Dog is better than that. I literally would have rather him taken a head shot mid conversation or something like that. The death of Henry in TLOU 1 was shock value done right, but this is so fucking stupid. Basically he made the right decision in TLOU 1 and it's not even debatable or ambiguous, and went out like a punk when the Joel that was already established wouldn't have trusted Abby from the get go.
 

Vslayer

Kurses in moose
Moderator
Premium Supporter
^
Listen there is no villain in that world. No really, because everyone is capable of doing something horrible when they’re heartbroken and hurt.

The only hero is Ellie because she’s the only one who would have given her life for a cure. And yes, Joel choosing Ellie over a cure is arguably the most selfish thing he could have done. It’s what we would all have done because at the end of TLOU1 we’re Joel, we care for Ellie like a parent and we would have selfishly chosen her.

Joel is not the hero and never was.

Doesn’t mean he deserved to die. But that’s the point of the game. That your actions affect others and their actions affect others and so on and so forth. And the hero is the person who chooses to stop the cycle of violence. Ellie ended it.
 

Dankster Morgan

she don’t call me daddy she call me Grandmaster
But my point was that Ellie wanting to sacrifice herself is the ill informed emotional decision of a 14 yr old, influenced by fucking morons like Marlene, then she would have actually died for nothing and her life would have actually meant nothing if Joel didn't stop it. It seriously was the clear cut right thing to do. His options were:
  • let his daughter get butchered and no cure is produced
  • save his daughter, wipe out a gang of incompetent psychopaths, and still no cure.
 

Vslayer

Kurses in moose
Moderator
Premium Supporter
But my point was that Ellie wanting to sacrifice herself is the ill informed emotional decision of a 14 yr old, influenced by fucking morons like Marlene, then she would have actually died for nothing and her life would have actually meant nothing if Joel didn't stop it. It seriously was the clear cut right thing to do. His options were:
  • let his daughter get butchered and no cure is produced
  • save his daughter, wipe out a gang of incompetent psychopaths, and still no cure.
No, the way the game frames it is 100% clear that it was the selfish choice as they would have been able to make a cure (Joel says so, in the beginning of the second game to Tommy, he even removed the mirror from his bathroom because his choice still haunted him). That's the whole poignant and real part of this story. That we're Joel, we would have selfishly wanted to keep her alive rather than have a cure.

Again, Joel ain't the hero of this game, Ellie is.
 

DrFolmer

AKA Uncle Kano
This game is objectively not very good. I think reviewers giving it insanely high scores and declare it a "masterpiece" is absurd, and constant argument that "if you dont like this game you're insert lgbt-buzzword phobic" is tiresome.

Listen, a game that makes you feel something isn't necessarily always a good thing - it depends on the nature of the feelings involved

People arent mad because Joel dies. People are mad because of how uncharacteristic he is in the situation, how the player is expected to legitimately believe that OF COURSE team Abby JUST happens to meet Joel at this particular time. When you really break it down, the plot is FILLED with holes. There's so much shit that's just way too convenient it just feels like some cheesy ass TV-Show where things get utterly predictable. It's a case of plot forming characters rather than characters actually interacting with the story, people are kinda just scripted in a way that conforms with the overall message, regardless of their identities established.

When you literally sit there like "Why the fuck would you do that?" or "Why would someone act this way" - that's when you know there's a problem, this is the main criticism I see directed at this game as well. The game works if you actually buy into the plot and the events that occur - if you don't (which is the case for a large majority of players) it's a dumpster fire.

Naughty Dog saying it's to subvert expectations is not an excuse for making a story that relies too much on simple shock value as opposed to a well-executed revenge plot with a nihilistic outcome.

There's a reason Red Dead Redeption works, same for the sequal.
It is especially the case for John Marston's story in the first game. You have to track down your old comrades as the extension of the law to earn your freedom to be with your family, only to be betrayed in the end. It has a similar "it was all for nothing" but the game just does an exceptional job at setting the tone and theme of 'the past will always come back and bite ya in the ass'. It's sad, it's anger-inducing but most importantly - it's impactful and relies on emotional impact rather than cheap shock value.

I saw Tyler1's reactions to the game, and honestly, I don't wanna sound like bigoted people, but this game honestly felt like it was trying sooooo hard to push an agenda, and unfortunately it was at the cost of character dynamics and development. I can only scratch my head at Abby's character. Why does she have a male body? Like, shit, I've been consistently in the gym for many years, girls that workout don't look like that let alone female soldiers. It isn't practical to be exceptionally huge for a soldier.

And don't get me wrong, I'm all for diversity. I friggin loved Dorian Pavus from Dragon Age Inquisition, that character was excellently written. Nobody cares that Ellie is homosexual, the DLC where her sexuality was explored was praised by critics and fans alike. It's just that this game tries sooo hard to convey something and it makes it so much more unbelievable ON TOP of the already pretty inconsistent plot.

This game definitely made fans feel something - a majority will say disappointed, underwhelmed.
It's definitely a controversial title, and that's what they intended - so props for that I guess.
I think it would have been better to introduce certain characters earlier to get their motives established much earlier. This game has a habit of doing things reactively, which is the main reason ppl generally dont give a damn about the second protagonist, which is a shame.
 

Vslayer

Kurses in moose
Moderator
Premium Supporter
This game is objectively not very good. I think reviewers giving it insanely high scores and declare it a "masterpiece" is absurd, and constant argument that "if you dont like this game you're insert lgbt-buzzword phobic" is tiresome.

Listen, a game that makes you feel something isn't necessarily always a good thing - it depends on the nature of the feelings involved

People arent mad because Joel dies. People are mad because of how uncharacteristic he is in the situation, how the player is expected to legitimately believe that OF COURSE team Abby JUST happens to meet Joel at this particular time. When you really break it down, the plot is FILLED with holes. There's so much shit that's just way too convenient it just feels like some cheesy ass TV-Show where things get utterly predictable. It's a case of plot forming characters rather than characters actually interacting with the story, people are kinda just scripted in a way that conforms with the overall message, regardless of their identities established.

When you literally sit there like "Why the fuck would you do that?" or "Why would someone act this way" - that's when you know there's a problem, this is the main criticism I see directed at this game as well. The game works if you actually buy into the plot and the events that occur - if you don't (which is the case for a large majority of players) it's a dumpster fire.

Naughty Dog saying it's to subvert expectations is not an excuse for making a story that relies too much on simple shock value as opposed to a well-executed revenge plot with a nihilistic outcome.

There's a reason Red Dead Redeption works, same for the sequal.
It is especially the case for John Marston's story in the first game. You have to track down your old comrades as the extension of the law to earn your freedom to be with your family, only to be betrayed in the end. It has a similar "it was all for nothing" but the game just does an exceptional job at setting the tone and theme of 'the past will always come back and bite ya in the ass'. It's sad, it's anger-inducing but most importantly - it's impactful and relies on emotional impact rather than cheap shock value.

I saw Tyler1's reactions to the game, and honestly, I don't wanna sound like bigoted people, but this game honestly felt like it was trying sooooo hard to push an agenda, and unfortunately it was at the cost of character dynamics and development. I can only scratch my head at Abby's character. Why does she have a male body? Like, shit, I've been consistently in the gym for many years, girls that workout don't look like that let alone female soldiers. It isn't practical to be exceptionally huge for a soldier.

And don't get me wrong, I'm all for diversity. I friggin loved Dorian Pavus from Dragon Age Inquisition, that character was excellently written. Nobody cares that Ellie is homosexual, the DLC where her sexuality was explored was praised by critics and fans alike. It's just that this game tries sooo hard to convey something and it makes it so much more unbelievable ON TOP of the already pretty inconsistent plot.

This game definitely made fans feel something - a majority will say disappointed, underwhelmed.
It's definitely a controversial title, and that's what they intended - so props for that I guess.
I think it would have been better to introduce certain characters earlier to get their motives established much earlier. This game has a habit of doing things reactively, which is the main reason ppl generally dont give a damn about the second protagonist, which is a shame.
First off, she doesn't have a man's body, she's literally modelled after a FEMALE crossfit athlete. I also am a woman and have the same shape as her and if you ain't got that shape and you're working out, then you're either shit out of luck in the genetics and body type department or you're doing something hella wrong while you're training. My guess is both, but everyone can get buff regardless with hard work. Which is what Abby has been doing for years.

Second,
What's so implausible that Abby, who was in a cabin close to Jackson (where both Joel and Tommy live) because she's actively searching for the man that killed her father, runs into the brothers while they are on their patrol and come up on a horde of zombies and get chased off their route? Because to me, that makes a whole lot of sense.

I see so many people saying the plot is inconsistent when it's 100% false and I say this after having completed the game twice. Everyone who were saying that stuff, were saying that because of the very out of context leaks and the false one that Abby kills Ellie in the end. They talk about how Abby letting Tommy and Ellie live makes no sense when her group literally has a fight over letting them live or not and Owen makes the point if they kill them then they're no better than Joel was. So I mean if you're gonna criticize something, if you're simply going to look at the reviews and some story points without taking the entire narrative into consideration, then you're not even getting the full picture.

Did you even play the game?
 

Vslayer

Kurses in moose
Moderator
Premium Supporter
It's become evident to me all the people who just say the same 'criticisms' we keep seeing are all those who just watched unfavourable reviews and are literally just word vomiting the same crap without having played the game. It's ridiculous.
 

Lt. Boxy Angelman

VOTE FOR ANGELMAN
Premium Supporter
I need to play this damn game now. I've never in my life seen a game that's been argued about this much and I have to feel it for myself. Luckily, my brother has it and I can borrow it from him once he's finished his run and save the money/not have my verdict predicated on whether or not it was worth the buy.
 
At worst, Ellie dies for nothing and there is no cure. At best, the cure works which I see as next to impossible especially based on the information Joel had, but it couldn't possibly save humanity for many reasons.
That the fireflies magically knew they could 100% get a cure is definitely absurd, but it is also definitely a use of Deus Ex Machina and for the purpose of the story we're supposed to assume that's true

For Joel though it was less about making the right/wrong decision and more him making the only decision he was capable of at that point. The way it's phrased by the story is Joel did humanity as a whole wrong, but himself was morally blameless because he wasn't really capable of making any other decision at that point. He was an emotionally broken man suddenly thrust into the most traumatic experience of his life a second time.**

I think the first game also did a great job of getting players into the headspace of the characters. The moment Marlene informed Joel about the operation- I didn't care about the odds of success or any trolly problem calculation, I was thinking "I am 1000% going to murder everyone here and get her out safely"

**also relevant is how hard Joel tried to get out of this situation. He wanted to hand Ellie off to Tommy not because Tommy was simply better at navigating the area, but he realized he was forming a parental relationship with Ellie and it would lead to catastrophe if he had to face losing a daughter again. And it was largely Ellie's decision that Joel should remove that mental block. I don't believe it was the game's intent to make Joel a monster through the game's ending, just that he was the tragic victim of circumstance and emotion- with the other character's equally contributing to that. It was Ellie's fault as much as it was Joel's
 
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Vslayer

Kurses in moose
Moderator
Premium Supporter
I need to play this damn game now. I've never in my life seen a game that's been argued about this much and I have to feel it for myself. Luckily, my brother has it and I can borrow it from him once he's finished his run and save the money/not have my verdict predicated on whether or not it was worth the buy.
Well for one, it's a game that doesn't give you a right or wrong, everything is grey, and it's a very harsh but real story. I guess people need to be labelled the hero, or they need to feel as though they're on the right side to feel good about the game they're playing but I mean without saying too much to ruin your playthrough once you do get around to it, it's a very emotionally heavy intensive game driven by consequences of the character's actions (Ellie, Joel and Abby).
 

DrFolmer

AKA Uncle Kano
Watching streamers' playthrough the game counts as well. Me pressing the buttons on the pad myself don't really change the outcome (or that's my assumption at least). I mean you obviously have a different opinion, and that's perfectly fine. I'm not spending 60 bucks on false marketing games lmao.

About the plot, maybe you find it believable, that's fine. Then there are others who find it a bit of a stretch. And then there's the argument Neil Druckmann made himself, that certain characteris let down their guard after a few years. I mean if that's what he intended then that that's how the game goes.

I can concede the plausability thing on second thought. There's just so much stuff beyond that, that just baffles me. Like these never-ending second chances to certain characters despite the fact that they REALLY shouldn't have. Those continuous second chances are LITERALLY the only reason the narrative is carried on. It relies on the naivety of opposing factions to the point there's no one left on either side.

Yes, it's a grim reality, and grusomeness of the cruel world is definitely impactful. A big part of the revenge story is just relying on oversights and naive decision-making to the point it reaches a very questionable stage for me personally. Game looks stunning AF though

Maybe I just don't 'get' it, and time will tell when this thing goes on a hefty sale

and say dumb shit like the game is "objectively not very good"
Having a narrative carried by uncharacteristic character choices is arguably - from a fictions literature standpoint - not ideal. It's not like these decicions in the game are points of no returns. It's literally instances of uncharacteristic choices to push the narrative forward aaaaaaaand then we're back to 'normal' behavior. This of course begs the discussion whether or these instances actually are the truly normal acts, whereas the rest of the gameplay is a state of physcological duress. This is probably why people genuinely feel some instances are super forced and don't flow very well together. It's pretty 101 for fictious literature that a character's personality and rationale is the basis for this character's particular actions. Without it, the cohesiveness of the narrative is at risk. And that's what people criticize it seems, that there seems to be a discrepancy in the common thread of the narrative - or at least that's what's perceived, and I personally agree with some of the statements. Sure, humans aren't perfect and we're all hypocritical to a certain extent, but some of the instances are just way too head scratching and convenient for me to fully get behind it, and I'm not the only one.

I would prefer you to actually present points instead of just insinuating that I'm stupid
 
Now that I'm back from vacation I've finally been able to binge a bunch. I've made it to Seattle Day 2. I want to give my impressions of the story but I think I definitely need to see the story out further before I do. It definitely wants to make a point about cruelty, and how everyone's a hero in their own story but the villain in the story of others, but it's not yet clear what conclusions it wants me to get from that yet**

Also, my favorite line so far:
Dina: I'm pregnant...
Ellie: You're pregnant????!!!
Dina: Don't worry it's not yours
 

Lt. Boxy Angelman

VOTE FOR ANGELMAN
Premium Supporter
Well for one, it's a game that doesn't give you a right or wrong, everything is grey, and it's a very harsh but real story. I guess people need to be labelled the hero, or they need to feel as though they're on the right side to feel good about the game they're playing but I mean without saying too much to ruin your playthrough once you do get around to it, it's a very emotionally heavy intensive game driven by consequences of the character's actions (Ellie, Joel and Abby).
That's part of what appeals to me: the ambiguity of it all. The Walking Dead is one of my top shows of all time, and Dead Space 2 is my favorite horror/suspense title ever made. I love end of the world, emotionally traumatic stories where the "am I the good guy or is all of this my fault?" narrative dictates the pace, like Michonne evolving over years to protect Alexandria, or Isaac Clarke fighting his way out of the Sprawl after EarthGov used him to create the Red Marker. Feeling that conflict in my soul is the stuff I live for.

(WHY WON'T THEY PUT DS2 ON THE PSN STORE DAMMIT I NEED TO GO BACK)
 

Vslayer

Kurses in moose
Moderator
Premium Supporter
Now that I'm back from vacation I've finally been able to binge a bunch. I've made it to Seattle Day 2. I want to give my impressions of the story but I think I definitely need to see the story out further before I do. It definitely wants to make a point about cruelty, and how everyone's a hero in their own story but the villain in the story of others, but it's not yet clear what conclusions it wants me to get from that yet**

Also, my favorite line so far:
Dina: I'm pregnant...
Ellie: You're pregnant????!!!
Dina: Don't worry it's not yours
Yeah, all those themes really come together in the end, and throughout there are a lot of parallels made between several characters referring to a lot of these same themes.

Dina and Ellie are so good together, the actresses really have a ton of chemistry and it's great.
 

Vslayer

Kurses in moose
Moderator
Premium Supporter
Watching streamers' playthrough the game counts as well. Me pressing the buttons on the pad myself don't really change the outcome (or that's my assumption at least). I mean you obviously have a different opinion, and that's perfectly fine. I'm not spending 60 bucks on false marketing games lmao.

About the plot, maybe you find it believable, that's fine. Then there are others who find it a bit of a stretch. And then there's the argument Neil Druckmann made himself, that certain characteris let down their guard after a few years. I mean if that's what he intended then that that's how the game goes.

I can concede the plausability thing on second thought. There's just so much stuff beyond that, that just baffles me. Like these never-ending second chances to certain characters despite the fact that they REALLY shouldn't have. Those continuous second chances are LITERALLY the only reason the narrative is carried on. It relies on the naivety of opposing factions to the point there's no one left on either side.

Yes, it's a grim reality, and grusomeness of the cruel world is definitely impactful. A big part of the revenge story is just relying on oversights and naive decision-making to the point it reaches a very questionable stage for me personally. Game looks stunning AF though

Maybe I just don't 'get' it, and time will tell when this thing goes on a hefty sale
I mean watching the game movie or watching a stream is the same as playing, but you have to watch it all from beginning to end because as I said many times, everything just comes together in the end and a lot of important parallels are drawn about all the themes in the game. So I feel like if you haven't watched the entire game movie, then you'll still be missing a lot of info and thus the ending may not have the full effect. And a part of me thinks if you're not the one spending all those hours in the character's shoes by playing as them, then in a way you're not really experiencing the full weight of the story because a lot of character development happens while playing as well and not just in cutscenes.

And what you mention about giving second chances is this really big and important overarching theme of forgiveness that we see all throughout the game. From Abby trying to forgive herself for what she's done, from Joel not able to forgive himself for what he's done to Ellie trying to forgive Joel and finally Ellie cutting to that moment at the end when she decides to spare Abby cause she remembers when she forgave Joel for taking her choice away. And even in the end, there's still the hanging theme of 'will Dina forgive Ellie if/when she goes back to Jackson after leaving to go after Abby?'

It's not simply about giving chances, it's about people making hard choices some wrong and some right.
 

xWildx

What a day. What a lovely day.
I do find it funny (in that it’s exceedingly ironic and unlikely, despite the fact that it’s a video game about mushroom zombies) that the doctor Joel kills just HAPPENS to have a transgender child that goes up against Ellie who’s now a full-fledged lesbian lol

All comes off a bit forced, imo.