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Tiers are UNIMPORTANT!

Death

Noob
I'll run over any reptile offline. Don't you dare say that. People considered that Kitana vs cage being 6.5-3.5 kitanas favor. Now its considered a 5-5. I hate when people say reptile beats cage when in reality he can get fucked by cage.
You should go over to the cage forums. They cry for worst MUs over there lol. You single handily ruined any kind of buffs the cage players wanted btw haha
 

Hitoshura

Head Cage
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and so am I. I believe tier lists are important. They display what we know of the game and/or how it is developed so far by showing who are the best to the worst characters in the game. They are always changing and are never set in stone till after the game is fully broken down which can take years to do so.

I think as of recently people are worrying about whose top 5 w/o proper knowledge of all characters matchups...OH WAIT! I forgot not everyone in the MK9 community agrees with the .5 mu system for tier lists their for this Tier list will never be done. WOOPS MY BAD!

OJuggernautO your right tier lists don't matter at least not in MK9 b/c there isn't one.
 

MKF30

Fujin and Ermac for MK 11
Ok, been checking out this topic just lurking and figured I'd chime in. My opinion they do matter but depending on the game, may determine how much they matter. Well, I have always felt tiers lists DO matter thus why we have them...otherwise, why have them?[especially in a game like MK9 where match ups are important] Are they everything? No, but do they matter to a degree and are relevant? Yes. Otherwise, again why do we have tier lists? Why does every major MK site have a tier list stickied right? For newer players exclusively? I don't believe that. Anyone can pick up this game one day and drop it the next like any other game. The Good, competitive players have this knowledge as well. Do they not?

I believe the tier lists come in handy to both newer and veteran players alike. If they didn't we wouldn't have something called "counterpicking" now would we?

Personally, I feel people shouldn't emphasize "too much" on tiers, but at the same time to ignore a match up is retarded as well. You're telling me if a Kabal or KL player faces a "Sheeva" player, tiers don't matter? One word for that. bullshit. There's no way the Sheeva player is going to win that, don't care how good they are on equal skill of a KL or Kabal, and if it is possible and "irrelevant" then please prove me wrong and post a video of a solid Sheeva beating a good KL or Kabal(and good luck finding that video lol). It's just an uphill battle for some match ups and highly against or for someone's favor, period. Think of it like this, first guy uses a pistol to kill people with...second guy uses crossbows and slingshots to kill people with. If both guys go up against each other of "equal" skill using their respected weapons, who has the advantage, who will most likely win? Hint hint, NOT the guy with the crossbow or slingshot. Unless he gets some kind of advantage to compensate that the dude with the gun doesn't see coming. But face to face, both accurate yeah I'm pretty sure a bullet is faster then a slingshot or bow so...yeah.

Now, one may say well then they can pick Kabal or KL or Rep whoever too. True, but maybe they don't want to or want a challenge winning?

No disrespect to "top tier character" players, but I'd still rather watch someone do well with a mid tier or low tier character. It's just more fun to watch and not dull, it shows those players don't rely on the better characters to win or do well. This is a big reason why I personally don't like using Kabal, Raiden a lot. I use them as secondaries..but I'd be lying if I said I have more fun playing them then say Ermac or Sektor, someone like that.

I think what it comes down to honestly is how bad do you want to win or increase your chances of winning. As oppose to use who you enjoy regardless of tier. This is something I've noticed both online and offline watching videos of people at tournaments. Online with the counterpicking games and tournaments with people who go with the Kabals, KL's, Reptiles, etc. Deep down people want "to win at any cost" but only some will actually admit it. This is why I have a lot of respect for people like CD Jr. when he won it all with Rain last year at that one tourney. Why don't we see that more often? Because most people don't want to put in that much time in a mid tier character because they know it's more work and harder to win that way, but not in the realm of impossible and thus why they figre ehh I'll just go with a top tier. This is why not even the best players can use every character "equally" because if that were true, they'd win with every and any character at any time so they will main a top tier to increase their chances of winning on top of knowing how to play the game well. That is all.
 

McNasty

Moist.
Believe in the characters potential and your own potential as a player.

Have in depth knowledge of strengths and weaknesses.

Adapt your playstyle to accentuate the strengths and develope strategy to overcome weaknesses.



Sent from my LG-LW690 using Tapatalk 2
 

Theme

Noob
Well-said.

But for all the people who do care about tiers, go main Kabal. It's that easy. Otherwise, shut the fuck up and do not ever complain about tier list if you don't have the guts to go and pick up the most obvious and best character in the game.

You tier whores and cry babies should be GRATEFUL this game has a clear-cut best character in the game and isn't swarmed with 3-6 extremely good characters fighting for the #1 spot like other games.
Really? I actually would prefer the 3-6 characters fighting for that top spot. Wouldnt it be more balanced that way? And more balanced is a better game in general.
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
Premium Supporter
Tiers are important to players that are new to the game and a tier list is more of a gift from the veteran competitive players to new players more than anything else and should be treated that way instead of players attempting to place their current character(s) higher (or lower, in this community) due to their bias like it is a contest.
Exactly. And the reason I made this thread is because people seemed to have lost sight of that. Tier lists aren't completely unimportant like my title suggests, but they are pretty irrelevant as far as high level players are concerned.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and so am I. I believe tier lists are important. They display what we know of the game and/or how it is developed so far by showing who are the best to the worst characters in the game. They are always changing and are never set in stone till after the game is fully broken down which can take years to do so.
Since the tier lists are always changing constantly, I don't see how it ever displays any knowledge. In fact, because they're always changing, it demonstrates our lack of knowledge since we're always finding out new shit that changes match-ups and ultimately tier placements.

Let me put it this way. When you say something like "This character is the best based on our current knowledge of the game. But this is based on what limited stuff we know about the game at the moment, and new evidence can arise to change this". So basically, you're willing to be wrong about it, while running around thinking you're right... and that makes you an idiot. And that is in no way a pathway to truth... at all.

PS. That last part wasn't directed to you Hito or anyone in specific, just in general.
 

Flagg

Noob
Really? I actually would prefer the 3-6 characters fighting for that top spot. Wouldnt it be more balanced that way? And more balanced is a better game in general.
I could be wrong, but I think he is saying there are 3-6 very good characters in the game.

As for this counter picking stuff doing the rounds, that's all well and good but what do you do? Main the entire cast to cover every concievable match up? Good luck playing everyone at a super duper level.

What if you mained Jax and played a bit of Kitana on the side? And you get a Cage. Do you play the Cage with your Jax character you know inside out (even though this is supposed to be a bad MU for Jax) or with you average Kitana because she is supposedly 5:5 on paper, ergo, you should have an easier time and ohh....you got blown up by the Cage because your Kitana fundamentals are nowhere near your Jax level.
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
Premium Supporter
Only for counterpicking though, which is justified but still slimy.
No that isn't true. You don't need a tier list to know which character counters another.

m2dave Why are tier lists important at high level? Objectively, not your opinion.
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
m2dave Why are tier lists important at high level? Objectively, not your opinion.
Because the characters with the least amount of bad match ups have the best chance of winning and hence such characters are consistently picked at high-sake tournaments by high level players. Bad match ups do exist even for the best characters. Nonetheless, a character with the least amount of bad match ups inherently has a better chance of winning than a character with more or severely more bad match ups.

This proposed argument that "the game constantly changes, so we can never know who is the best" is of course absurd. If character X was considered the best last week, he/she still represented how the game was played at a high level last week.
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
Premium Supporter
Because the characters with the least amount of bad match ups have the best chance of winning and hence such characters are consistently picked at high-sake tournaments by high level players. Bad match ups do exist even for the best characters. Nonetheless, a character with the least amount of bad match ups inherently has a better chance of winning than a character with more or severely more bad match ups.
That doesn't answer the question.
 

Death

Noob
MU chart are for sure important. Since Counter picking is such a huge part of this game I think MU charts should be made on bad MUs. I think M2dave a while ago had a project like that and I honestly till this day believed that was the best route to go when making a tier list. Total number IMO means nothing.
 

Konqrr

MK11 Kabal = MK9 Kitana
Good thread Juggs...

The single most important thing about fighting games is knowing matchups. It is the number one reason for all of my tournament losses, in every fighting game, since well... forever.

A new person to the game always wants to see the tier list to help them decide what character they want to learn. They don't want to begin playing an established game with a character with 10 losing matchups. So in that sense, they are important.
 

Flagg

Noob
Some of you are giving too much credit to characters and not enough to players.

For instance, lets say for arguments sake Foxy started playing Kabal. Now we know REO plays some Cage, but I dont think there is any dispute that Foxys is far superior. That said, REO has undoubtedbly the best Kabal in the world. Im sure if you had to face REOS Cage instead of Foxys and Foxys (hypothetical) Kabal over REOS, most of you would be breathing a big sigh of relief, regardless of how good or bad your character is in the match up.
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
Premium Supporter
It does. You just don't agree with it.
No, what you're describing is a match-up chart. A match-up chart in most other fighters determines the tiers based on the math of adding all the first numbers up, and putting the character in order of the highest number to lowest. The MK tier list has never gone by this method, in MK9 or in any other MK game. Tier lists =/= match-up charts.
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
No, what you're describing is a match-up chart. A match-up chart in most other fighters determines the tiers based on the math of adding all the first numbers up, and putting the character in order of the highest number to lowest. The MK tier list has never gone by this method, in MK9 or in any other MK game. Tier lists =/= match-up charts.
Well, you know the old 2D MK games better than I do, so I'm not sure why MKII and UMK:3 never had match up charts. But the 3D MK games never had any because they sucked. And actually right now THTB and numerous other players are working on a match up chart via the private message system.
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
Premium Supporter
Well, you know the old 2D MK games better than I do, so I'm not sure why MKII and UMK:3 never had match up charts. But the 3D MK games never had any because they sucked. And actually right now THTB and numerous other players are working on a match up chart via the private message system.
I think it just wasn't really ever needed. UMK3 at least isn't match-up dependent. Shock attempted one somewhere around a year ago, but I can't seem to find it anymore.