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These 9-Frame Mids NEED To Go!!

Braindead

I want Kronika to step on my face
Yeah D4 is amazing, but like if you wanna D1 into anything it's ass and you'll get clipped.
Do you mean canceling d1 on block into a special? That's bad for almost every character in the game except grapplers.

On hit d1 is +10? That's even better than like half the cast and you have a 9f mid which almost no one has lol.
 

Vslayer

Juiced Moose On The Loose
Lead Moderator
You have a 9f mid you shouldn't have any trouble after d1 on hit.

Cassie's pokes aren't bad. D1 is slow but d3 is decent and d4 is another goddamn autofootsie tool.
I just honestly never poke with D1 I either shimmy F4, or D4 F2.
 

Vslayer

Juiced Moose On The Loose
Lead Moderator
Well that's up to you. I'm just here to regulate the downplaying.
And I appreciate it <3

edit: not that that really was downplaying, but whatevs, haters gonna hate. Especially those who main chars with unreactable 50/50s.
 
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mrapchem

Noob
And I appreciate it <3

edit: not that that really was downplaying, but whatevs, haters gonna hate. Especially those who main chars with unreactable 50/50s.
I do indeed main a character with an unreactable low, and an unsafe, offline-reactable overhead. But I would main him even if he were the very worst character in the game, so that doesn't say much. I'm gonna main him in MK12 too and in every other MK that comes thereafter, even if he has no 50/50s.

Speaking of Sub-Zero, his 50/50s are his mids; his other offense string starts with a slow high. And it should be slow because of its range and disjointed-hitbox. As a matter of fact, I'm quite happy with Sub's strings because they all have their strengths, but they also have counter-play for a smart opponent to take advantage of.

That kind of counter-play doesn't exist for the aforementioned 9-frame mids. That's really the core of what I want - these attacks to have a weakness to take advantage of.
 
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Vslayer

Juiced Moose On The Loose
Lead Moderator
I do indeed main a character with an unreactable low, and an unsafe, offline-reactable overhead. But I would main him even if he were the very worst character in the game, so that doesn't say much. I'm gonna main him in MK12 too and in every other MK that comes thereafter, even if he has no 50/50s.

Speaking of Sub-Zero, his 50/50s are his mids; his other offense string starts with a slow high. And it should be slow because of its range and disjointed-hitbox. As a matter of fact, I'm quite happy with Sub's strings because they all have their strengths, but they also have counter-play for a smart opponent to take advantage of.

That kind of counter-play doesn't exist for the aforementioned 9-frame mids. That's really the core of what I want - these attacks to have a weakness to take advantage of.
I'd play Cass even if she was Kano bad, I just don't understand the need to hate characters that are perfectly balanced. Heck, some Sub players stormed the Cass forum before the patch because of slaty loses online (not you). You love a character, you shouldn't feel forced to change just because they're good, it's not your fault, but people come here to complain cause they lose.

You may not have a 9 frame mid but you can mix someone's shit all day and still win.
 

Kenshi-Keanu-Kool

D1 mashing is the tactic when skill fails !
Jacqui and Cassie have great mids but somehow dropped down in the tier list, I really dont think them having a 9f mid is a problem. Liu and Jax can be a problem but only because their mids lead to krushing blows (if you're gonna nerf something, nerf the krushing blows -- I wish there was a way to elevate every characters KB's to about where Jax's/Kangs are, but thats not gonna happen, so I do think they need to be toned down).

The game just needs lower tier characters to also have reliable mids, somewhere between 9-12f
EXACTLY !!
 

mrapchem

Noob
I'd play Cass even if she was Kano bad, I just don't understand the need to hate characters that are perfectly balanced. Heck, some Sub players stormed the Cass forum before the patch because of slaty loses online (not you). You love a character, you shouldn't feel forced to change just because they're good, it's not your fault, but people come here to complain cause they lose.

You may not have a 9 frame mid but you can mix someone's shit all day and still win.
You're definitely not wrong about people whining after they lose to things, or to characters. I'm sure you've seen or at least heard of the shenanigans that has occurred in the Sub-Zero forums in every MK, but especially this one! People bomb-rushing our Sub-Zero threads to 'politely' inform us that our character was busted, broken, pea-brained and every other hyperbolic pejorative they could think to hurl at us. And then when we Sub mains tell them how to beat our broken strategy of overhead or low, they proceed to tell us how wrong we were!

But, I realized that amidst the torrent of vitriol and dribble, their complaints had a single iota of truth: Sub-Zero had no business being able to loop his 50/50 mix business. Just having the option to combo off both overhead and low is powerful enough in this game - he shouldn't be able to cancel a string or normal and be +16 or +22.

So I stated for the record that I wanted NRS to reduce the hit advantage of his standing 2 and B32/B14 strings so that Sub cannot guarantee a low/overhead attempt. And some of my fellow Sub mains disagreed with that, but I said what I said and meant it. And I still mean it - I still want NRS to fix those things so that Sub players without neutral can't just guess their way to victory. That kind of rubbish was tolerated for far too long during MKX and it has no place here in MK11. Plus, I don't like playing against Sub's looping mix or even watching it in action any more than anyone else does.

As for what you said, you're absolutely right about Sub being able to mix and win. The problem is, that strategy's about as reliable as your opponent's guessing-ability. And if they can react to that overhead, then ain't no mix. However, these safe, ranged 9-frame combo-starting characters can do their stuff to just about everybody except each other.

All in all, I would like to see the whole cast be brought to around the Kabal/Baraka level, where they are super strong in unique ways, but can be effectively counter-played by diligent players. And the opponents of these characters still get to play the game, most especially when it's time to poke.

A Cassie Cage with an F4 that's more in line with Baraka's would still be a monstrous character that doesn't play any differently than she does now. Just like a Sub-Zero that earns his turn to try and mix, instead of being able to loop it is still a strong character.
 

thlityoursloat

kick kick
You're definitely not wrong about people whining after they lose to things, or to characters. I'm sure you've seen or at least heard of the shenanigans that has occurred in the Sub-Zero forums in every MK, but especially this one! People bomb-rushing our Sub-Zero threads to 'politely' inform us that our character was busted, broken, pea-brained and every other hyperbolic pejorative they could think to hurl at us. And then when we Sub mains tell them how to beat our broken strategy of overhead or low, they proceed to tell us how wrong we were!

But, I realized that amidst the torrent of vitriol and dribble, their complaints had a single iota of truth: Sub-Zero had no business being able to loop his 50/50 mix business. Just having the option to combo off both overhead and low is powerful enough in this game - he shouldn't be able to cancel a string or normal and be +16 or +22.

So I stated for the record that I wanted NRS to reduce the hit advantage of his standing 2 and B32/B14 strings so that Sub cannot guarantee a low/overhead attempt. And some of my fellow Sub mains disagreed with that, but I said what I said and meant it. And I still mean it - I still want NRS to fix those things so that Sub players without neutral can't just guess their way to victory. That kind of rubbish was tolerated for far too long during MKX and it has no place here in MK11. Plus, I don't like playing against Sub's looping mix or even watching it in action any more than anyone else does.

As for what you said, you're absolutely right about Sub being able to mix and win. The problem is, that strategy's about as reliable as your opponent's guessing-ability. And if they can react to that overhead, then ain't no mix. However, these safe, ranged 9-frame combo-starting characters can do their stuff to just about everybody except each other.

All in all, I would like to see the whole cast be brought to around the Kabal/Baraka level, where they are super strong in unique ways, but can be effectively counter-played by diligent players. And the opponents of these characters still get to play the game, most especially when it's time to poke.

A Cassie Cage with an F4 that's more in line with Baraka's would still be a monstrous character that doesn't play any differently than she does now. Just like a Sub-Zero that earns his turn to try and mix, instead of being able to loop it is still a strong character.
How do you "beat" a 50/50 mixup? It's like you SZ players are so spoiled by the fact that your character's gameplan is almost untouched from MKX, that you keep spouting the same shit that was being said back in the MKX days. Fucking hell even your cancerous d4 and j1 are the same. Shit, you don't even have to put in much effort into playing the neutral because you have this insanely long range HURTBOXLESS button and a big leg with a forward dash animation because fuck reserving big legs for big bodies.
When Jax takes 80% of your life from a fatal blow and a KB from a techable grab, it's an outrage, when the almighty bottom tier SZ rapes your entire life bar with a 50/50 into a KB, and then another 50/50 into a FB that has hardly any scaling, "just fuzzy".
"Quan Chi is fine bro just fuzzy the 50/50, the low's like this many frames slower, see, I can totally do it in the lab".
 

mrapchem

Noob
How do you "beat" a 50/50 mixup? It's like you SZ players are so spoiled by the fact that your character's gameplan is almost untouched from MKX, that you keep spouting the same shit that was being said back in the MKX days. Fucking hell even your cancerous d4 and j1 are the same. Shit, you don't even have to put in much effort into playing the neutral because you have this insanely long range HURTBOXLESS button and a big leg with a forward dash animation because fuck reserving big legs for big bodies.
When Jax takes 80% of your life from a fatal blow and a KB from a techable grab, it's an outrage, when the almighty bottom tier SZ rapes your entire life bar with a 50/50 into a KB, and then another 50/50 into a FB that has hardly any scaling, "just fuzzy".
"Quan Chi is fine bro just fuzzy the 50/50, the low's like this many frames slower, see, I can totally do it in the lab".
I figured it wouldn't take that long for this to happen, but damn!!!! That's hilarious!!!
 

thlityoursloat

kick kick
I figured it wouldn't take that long for this to happen, but damn!!!! That's hilarious!!!
Oh shit, I forgot to mention your MB iceball being pretty much a pocket fatal blow without armor, and your slide in the other variation pretty much completely owning the neutral game.
B-bbut fuzzy bro. Flawless block the big leg.
 

mrapchem

Noob
Oh shit, I forgot to mention your MB iceball being pretty much a pocket fatal blow without armor, and your slide in the other variation pretty much completely owning the neutral game.
B-bbut fuzzy bro. Flawless block the big leg.
(sigh)...I don't get to choose Sub-Zero's normals, jump-ins or strings - I just use whatever he has. None of us Sub players decided that he should have plus frames off a 28-frame move.

Honestly, I don't know how you would interrupt or block a 19-frame, unsafe overhead, or how you would avoid a short-ranged low attack. I have no clue how you would either walk backwards against or anti-air a Sub-Zero player using JI1. I'm not quite sure if you can duck the 14-frame high that doesn't have a hurtbox. You might be able to bait and block the MB ice-ball, but again, I can't be certain of that.

I do know one thing though - you can check out the tournaments where these Sub-Zero players are constantly winning majors using the cornucopia of tools that you mentioned. I'm sure you'll figure out how to counter him then.
 

thlityoursloat

kick kick
(sigh)...I don't get to choose Sub-Zero's normals, jump-ins or strings - I just use whatever he has. None of us Sub players decided that he should have plus frames off a 28-frame move.

Honestly, I don't know how you would interrupt or block a 19-frame, unsafe overhead, or how you would avoid a short-ranged low attack. I have no clue how you would either walk backwards against or anti-air a Sub-Zero player using JI1. I'm not quite sure if you can duck the 14-frame high that doesn't have a hurtbox.

I do know one thing though - you can check out the tournaments where these Sub-Zero players are constantly winning majors using the cornucopia of tools that you mentioned. I'm sure you'll figure out how to counter him then.
Good thing you mentioned that, because in high level play no one does any of that consistently to show how poor sub zero struggles.
Do you realize that the counterplay you just mentioned is all just outrageously hard reading? Let me just casually neutral duck in the open where I can get clipped by his plethora of overheads and lows, and then try to counter hit him out of the b1 string. Let me just walk back so I can get clipped by his plethora of advancing buttons/strings, including his overhead. You have to do this little, I have to do this much, in a game where many characters can't even combo for a bar even if they have one, against a character with meterless high damage combos, and a whole bunch of easy KBs. Such a terrible character.
Are you also seriously telling me to "just block" the overhead? Man..