These 9-Frame Mids NEED To Go!!

[mrapchem]

Well, perhaps not all of them!! But the mids like Jacqui/Cassie/Liu Kang's F4 that are all 9-frame, advancing/ranged, hit-confirmable into big damage are nothing more than cancerous to the enjoyment of the game. Jax also has one, but I can't remember whether it's his F4 or what. These mids effectively shut down much of the rest of the cast, making them afraid to take their turn against any of these characters even when they are negative. And don't even bother trying to play anywhere around sweep distance with these guys either because those same mids will supersede a Johnny F3, Sub-Zero B4, Baraka F4 or B3 or just about any other character's best footsie normal. These mids are part of the reason every other thread/comment contains resentment towards Liu Kang right now!

There are characters that designed to be scary up close - and they should be. However, these characters should have hard counters from the game's best zoners, but that's not how it currently works. Liu Kang and Cassie can zone with the best in the cast, so they can make the zoners approach them and then get F4'd to death. Ms. Briggs has such good movement, JI2 and a safe, unreactable special move that gives a KB, so zoners can never truly keep her at bay. Jax does have a difficult time getting in, but he also happens to be in possession of the best FB in the game that does bypasses projectiles for damage, oki and arm heat.

I believe that if a character does have a 9-frame mid, it should not advance and should have a very short range, like Liu Kang/Noob Saibot's B1. And if it does advance, it should lead to a knockdown on hit. This allows the rest of the cast to play the damn game, especially up close. The aforementioned characters' mids should either be slowed down or made high if they maintain their speed. This is for the best long-term health of the game. The most balanced characters in the game all have advancing normals that are either fast highs or medium-speed(possibly non-hit confirmable) mids. Everyone else should be brought to their level.

What are your thoughts on this topic? Thanks for reading!

 

[JeffX]

Well you're not wrong. The 9 frame mids in this game allow characters to bypass an entire layer off the meta. I won't play the game anymore until these moves get adjust as well. They're one of the reasons jump kicks are too good right now.

Let's look at Raiden's f1 from MKX. Was originally a mid. Changed to a high because holy shit was that broken.

Kotal's B1 was also changed to a high and I believe that was a 9 frame mid originally.

This has to be a case by case basis though.

Liu's f4 should be a high or 12 frames in my opinion.

Cassie/ Jaqui/ Jax just need to have theirs slowed down to 10 or 11.

 

[mrapchem]

Well you're not wrong. The 9 frame mids in this game allow characters to bypass an entire layer off the meta. I won't play the game anymore until these moves get adjust as well. They're one of the reasons jump kicks are too good right now.

Let's look at Raiden's f1 from MKX. Was originally a mid. Changed to a high because holy shit was that broken.

Kotal's B1 was also changed to a high and I believe that was a 9 frame mid originally.

This has to be a case by case basis though.

Liu's f4 should be a high or 12 frames in my opinion.

Cassie/ Jaqui/ Jax just need to have theirs slowed down to 10 or 11.

Exactly my point!!!! You took the words right out of my mouth - MKX Raiden's F1 was fucked all the way up as a mid. Now we have multiple characters that have basically the same thing he did.

 

[PapaRegadetho]

Now we talking, nerf all 9 drame mids!

 

[Hellbringer]

Nerf it so you can cry for the next thing.

 

[mrapchem]

Nerf it so you can cry for the next thing.

Honestly, this game is quite close to brilliant. Supercilious Fatal Blows, stupid hitboxes and these 9-framers are the main things holding the game back.

 

[Agilaz]

9f mids really are the least of issues with this game

they're strong for sure, but the characters that have them probably should have them? pressure characters can get away with having them, though I'm not sure why noob needs one too..

liu is somewhat of an exception in this cause he has two. he doesn't need two. nobody needs two 9f mids lol

 

[Name v.5.0]

Nerf it so you can cry for the next thing.

Imagine that, we have to work through a list of bullshit in order to put the game into a place where the masses actually want to play it.

 

[mrapchem]

9f mids really are the least of issues with this game

they're strong for sure, but the characters that have them probably should have them? pressure characters can get away with having them, though I'm not sure why noob needs one too..

liu is somewhat of an exception in this cause he has two. he doesn't need two. nobody needs two 9f mids lol

I would be inclined to agree with you, but as I stated before, the pressure characters that do have these mids also zone well or deal with zoning well enough to not justify these mids being so fast.

But you're all the way right about Liu - he defintely doesn't need two 9-frame mids!

I'm curious - what do you think are the most pressing issues with the game?

 

[GLoRToR]

9f mids are fine but they shouldn't be game breaking.
The problem is that the same moves that have a 9f startup also lead to big damage and have enough range to blow up pokes.

It's the same issue as with d1 being safe on block.
It's not well thought out.

 

[lordlosh]

I dont see problem with Jacqui or Cassie. Cassie have good zoning, but her "low" shot are actual mid, so you dont need to crouch to block.
Cassie also doesnt have full screen ranged tool, like Flying Dragon Kick, her FB sucks, and have 1 viable KB.
Jacqui on the other hand have zero zoning tools, her FB sucks and her KBs are so so.
Both Cassie and Jacqui as it now are okay and balanced.
But Kang is not. He have top 2 FB, 6 solid high dmg KBs, 2 on throws, and we are at throw meta, full screen ranged tool, best anti-air, best mids, best pressure, he can steal turns like no else, and when you some how punish him, he brakeaway, and you do nothing to him and its his turn again and repeat of the same. This is a broken build character.
And lets not forget that Cassie and Jacqui doesnt have 38273267656 option after their fast mids, unlike Kang. And they both are 950 hp.

 

[Wigy]

On paper from a vanilla design stand point I can understand having them but with how the meta of the game developed they are just overpowering.

They play the meta perfectly.

Tom Brady actually explained this all really well on @REO's podcast on jumps.

Everyone is scared shitless of grabs so is constantly neutral jumping and crossing up a lot, and mashing pokes, characters with good mids that can blow up mashing, can be staggered and catch jumps are legit all top tier.

Cassie erron geras Jacqui Liu jax etc

They play a different game than everyone else.

This is a universal issue with strings being awful at catching jumps and some easy to initiate strings leading to endless staggers on top of grabs with KBs that leave them right next to you.

This would be fine if they suffered elsewhere but they rarely do.

This is a balance issue that's not obvious cause it's just down to the meta of the game. You put half the zoners of mkx into this game they would absolutely rape train everyone but that's not how it worked in the game because armour and Sprint existed.

Edit-

I think Jacqui should absolutely have hers and noob should too. Jax too, I just hate how potato he is.

Liu Kang is a fucking joke but no need to get into all that again.

 

[mrapchem]

9f mids are fine but they shouldn't be game breaking.
The problem is that the same moves that have a 9f startup also lead to big damage and have enough range to blow up pokes.

It's the same issue as with d1 being safe on block.
It's not well thought out.

Exactly! I look at a character like Johnny Cage and I find that every string that he was given has its uses - except maybe F34! To be effective with him, a Cage player needs to know exactly when and how to use all his strings, because though they all have their use, each one comes with a caveat that gives the opponent the chance to counter-play.

Liu Kang is the exact opposite - his one string F43 is a combo-starter, whiff punish and does just about everything else. And any weaknesses it does have are nullified by its strengths, which include its start-up speed. I want the 9-frame mids that have such utility to either not be mid anymore or 9 frames anymore. Or, they can have their utility diminished, so that players are not so heavily rewarded from that one string.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

So you want to take the main thing Jacqui has to keep her competitive away.

So essentially she’d have to be super patient, get in past your zoning and ex projectile nonsense, make a hard read on the ‘safe’ dash punch to make sure you don’t just duck it and d2 KB her back into playing the zoning game.

Then she gets in and.. Now she has to use a 12f mid. Ooooh, scary

No, this is what the character is designed to do, because it’s all she does. Comparing Jacqui to Liu Kang, where he zones with a low fireball, Amp 3-hit projectile, and forces you to approach him, and then when you do, he might actually be plus if you don’t make the right hard read after you block, is ridiculous.

 

[GLoRToR]

So you want to take the main thing Jacqui has to keep her competitive away.

So essentially she’d have to be super patient, get in past your zoning and ex projectile nonsense, make a hard read on the ‘safe’ dash punch to make sure you don’t just duck it and d2 KB her back into playing the zoning game.

Then she gets in and.. Now she has to use a 12f mid. Ooooh, scary

No, this is what the character is designed to do, because it’s all she does. Comparing Jacqui to Liu Kang, where he zones with a low fireball, Amp 3-hit projectile, and forces you to approach him, and then when you do, he might actually be plus if you don’t make the right hard read after you block, is ridiculous.

Note what I said about range and damage in relation to move speed.
I think Jacqui deserves to have a 9f mid in her kit because she's t-rex as fuck. In her case it's the meterless cancel that's stupid and I think if her risk aligns with her reward she'll be balanced.

 

[Invincible Salads]

9 frame mids arent the problem, they really arent.

if were gonna talk about characters like liu kang, it really comes down to 1 thing, its the amount of staggers and options he has upclose. like, between b1, 12, f4, the man can just go.....and go and go and go and go.

 

[trufenix]

lol, a bunch of players who already say they quit asking for a nerf to bring them back. Ya, okay, that'll last.

 

[Plays2_MX]

9f mids really are the least of issues with this game

they're strong for sure, but the characters that have them probably should have them? pressure characters can get away with having them, though I'm not sure why noob needs one too..

liu is somewhat of an exception in this cause he has two. he doesn't need two. nobody needs two 9f mids lol

B1 is super helpful with Seeing Double. I can make it safe with slide mb whenever they try to poke again if they're minus. It's better than using B1 1+3.

 

[Wigy]

@CrimsonShadow

I largely disagree with you on many topics but that shit was right on the money.

Jacqui is exactly the character to have an oppressive 9 frame mid.

 

[mrapchem]

So you want to take the main thing Jacqui has to keep her competitive away.

So essentially she’d have to be super patient, get in past your zoning and ex projectile nonsense, make a hard read on the ‘safe’ dash punch to make sure you don’t just duck it and d2 KB her back into playing the zoning game.

Then she gets in and.. Now she has to use a 12f mid. Ooooh, scary

No, this is what the character is designed to do, because it’s all she does. Comparing Jacqui to Liu Kang, where he zones with a low fireball, Amp 3-hit projectile, and forces you to approach him, and then when you do, he might actually be plus if you don’t make the right hard read after you block, is ridiculous.

I never said take it away - I'm saying it should be toned down. Plus, it's not like Jacqui is susceptible to being out-zoned by a big chunk of the cast. Her movement is great, she has multiple advancing mids and a good jump-in 2 that is quite reminiscent of MKX Sonya. And she does have a -7 dash punch. Liu Kang, Jade, JC, Cassie, Raiden and everyone else with a fast advancing special eats a combo if their move is blocked. Jacqui does not.

I see nothing wrong with making her 9-frame mid not be 9 frames anymore. She would still be just as strong as she is currently, except now people could actually poke her back.

 

[kcd117]

Having an advancing 9 frame mid means that you have to go through less than half of the mindgames other characters have to get your turn back and start/keep your pressure. For the characters that have it, it is like they are playing a complete different offense meta.

It is the offensive equivalent of having some characters that can tech both sides of throws with L1 in defense.

Another factor that contributes to make them outliers is the frame data on those moves. Jacqui for example has an advancing 9 frame mid that crushes pokes and leaves her at the perfect distance for another one but outsied of the range where you can check her. She is only -2 after that and can cancel the follow up attacks, leaving her in the range of her 7 frame D1 that on hit will guarantee her pressure again and on block will push you out of your poke range and to the sweetspot of her 9 frame mid range.

They should either be slower or waaaay more unsafe.

 

[mrapchem]

Having an advancing 9 frame mid means that you have to go through less than half of the mindgames other characters have to get your turn back and start/keep your pressure. For the characters that have it, it is like they are playing a complete different offense meta.

It is the offensive equivalent of having some characters that can tech both sides of throws with L1 in defense.

Another factor that contributes to make them outliers is the frame data on those moves. Jacqui for example has an advancing 9 frame mid that crushes pokes and leaves her at the perfect distance for another one but outsied of the range where you can check her. She is only -2 after that and can cancel the follow up attacks, leaving her in the range of her 7 frame D1 that on hit will guarantee her pressure again and on block will push you out of your poke range and to the sweetspot of her 9 frame mid range.

They should either be slower or waaaay more unsafe.

Precisely.

 

[Kenshi-Keanu-Kool]

Making KB so easy its the problem . what kind of " requirement " is f4 after a hit confirm , or scorpions BNB combo ending with a krushing blow ?!! I have like 100 losses because of that . Meanwhile , as a kung lao player , i have to commit to unsafe dive kicks , and negative frames on block like f21 lol
And Jax f33 the 2 hit should be a high , and there is where the mind games and reads should begin .
Krushing blows should also need 1 bar of Attack Meter . it would make the game much more interesting instead of losing to scrubs to hit a panic uppercut and winning a match like that . KB after hit confirms and ending bnb combos with kb are not requirements . its just stupid and scrubinness at its finest .

 

[Badboy Takuma]

Well, perhaps not all of them!! But the mids like Jacqui/Cassie/Liu Kang's F4 that are all 9-frame, advancing/ranged, hit-confirmable into big damage are nothing more than cancerous to the enjoyment of the game. Jax also has one, but I can't remember whether it's his F4 or what. These mids effectively shut down much of the rest of the cast, making them afraid to take their turn against any of these characters even when they are negative. And don't even bother trying to play anywhere around sweep distance with these guys either because those same mids will supersede a Johnny F3, Sub-Zero B4, Baraka F4 or B3 or just about any other character's best footsie normal. These mids are part of the reason every other thread/comment contains resentment towards Liu Kang right now!

There are characters that designed to be scary up close - and they should be. However, these characters should have hard counters from the game's best zoners, but that's not how it currently works. Liu Kang and Cassie can zone with the best in the cast, so they can make the zoners approach them and then get F4'd to death. Ms. Briggs has such good movement, JI2 and a safe, unreactable special move that gives a KB, so zoners can never truly keep her at bay. Jax does have a difficult time getting in, but he also happens to be in possession of the best FB in the game that does bypasses projectiles for damage, oki and arm heat.

I believe that if a character does have a 9-frame mid, it should not advance and should have a very short range, like Liu Kang/Noob Saibot's B1. And if it does advance, it should lead to a knockdown on hit. This allows the rest of the cast to play the damn game, especially up close. The aforementioned characters' mids should either be slowed down or made high if they maintain their speed. This is for the best long-term health of the game. The most balanced characters in the game all have advancing normals that are either fast highs or medium-speed(possibly non-hit confirmable) mids. Everyone else should be brought to their level.

What are your thoughts on this topic? Thanks for reading!

i need some infos about you otherwise i cant answer you properly!
how long do you play fighters, which main games so far?
do you consider yourself an casual player or do you want to level up to be able to play competitive?
how much time do you spend playing mk11? like how much hours per day or week.

 

[Eddy Wang]

I love Kabal, he is strong as Fuck but at least he is very honest
B12, is mid overhead, but 15f startup
his 9f mid has really short range
If one understands what Kabal is up to, a really good back dash or spacing game usually is good enough to make him hang himself.

Same can be said about nightwolf, his best mid, has short range, although if he throws those quick advancing mids he literally loses his turn, the tricky part its how his follow ups works, usually people are always expecting him to do 11, f12 or b34, but if he uses just one instead of double dial he gets mental advantage.

Sadly same can't be said about Liu and the others though.