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The State of Zoning and Overall Strategy in Mortal Kombat 1

You are feeling bad about Johnny Cage in this game because of Shang Tsung's skulls? What? LOL.
nah im illustrating that each character has preferred distances (which now alter by kameos) you throwing fullscreen fireballs at omniman is like throwing a command grab at a zoner fullscreen. IMO the evasive move omni has should require a timed input for the dodging, but it takes the same intelligence to input a projectile parry as it does to fire a projectile. When a character has to duck and dodge an oppressive barrage of fireballs youre happy, but then when mobility rich characters force you to adapt to other playstyles all the sudden it’s unfair.
 
I have a take on a topic in the podcast. I agree other playstyles need love but I also agree balancing has to be done right. the lower characters need buffed to be up to A+ and the Kameos need to have some minor nerfs with the worse Kameos getting buffs to make them strong but unique.
The problem is it has to be done at the same time which requires a lot of thought and planning, it's gonna take a while.
If you just nerf the top Kameos there's tons of characters that basically rely on them to be viable in this meta.
If you just buff the kameos you have STiers getting the same benefits, it's true the bottom will be better equipped but still a more dominant character with better options using the same tool.
You can buff the bottom for now and get them to A+ so they can better deal with S Tiers but S Tiers just have kits that is far stronger with Kung Lao and a few other Kameos.

But I'm not so sure NRS what's characters to be 3 different styles of play. I'm not sure what direction they want to go. They may be fine with Lao hat being the barrier of Kameos. In that case I do feel buffing the bottom is the best course in the short term.

I also think several Kameos have tons of potential but a large majority of the FGC is just copy paste what they see the top players using which is Rushdown mix, chip pressure. Seems like Sonic's wheelhouse, his style is pressure, pressure, pressure into what kind of dirty mix can I put you in on loop and I've noticed it doesn't matter what toolkit a character has, you put it in Sonics hands and he will find a way to make them pressure + mix with chip.
I do think a bunch of Kameos are very effective right now depending on character but everyone is on the low hat bandwagon.
For example Rain/Jax is very strong has really dirty setups and accomplished the same HTBs as low hat if not better ones with throw into whirlpool/HTB and has ground pound for freedom to come in. Lao is just so easy to setup and use for many characters. Sindel has really good HTBs but has to work harder than mixup low hat, she has to B2(mid into flight cancel into JIPxxString/Throw) I think most will choose the easier one.
I think the big problem with Kameos is the plethora of uses of the move that covers several options with one Kameo move.
Make low hat not plus, make it -1 or less. But not sure when because I have no clue when NRS plans on doing buffs with a major balance patch.
 
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SixPathsOfHate

Make triple skulls input BDF or DF Hold F
I actually forgot Kitana, whom I will add later.

Once the ice clone functions properly, I will add Sub Zero too.



You are feeling bad about Johnny Cage in this game because of Shang Tsung's skulls? What? LOL.



Geras/Kung Lao and Reiko/Darrius are solid grapplers.

Anti rush down characters include Kung Lao/Goro and Tanya/Goro because of safe, armored launchers.

If anything, the game needs a top tier zoning DLC, especially after Omni-Man's release.
Kung Lao's projectiles are anti-zoning projectiles. They both have ridiculous hit stun and will basically win you the fireball war since chances are your fireball doesnt knockdown or have the hitstun that either of his projectiles have. From there he can dive kick to close range and armor if he gets close enough to negate your fireball.
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
When a character has to duck and dodge an oppressive barrage of fireballs youre happy, but then when mobility rich characters force you to adapt to other playstyles all the sudden it’s unfair.
I have criticized NRS zoning characters for their lack of variety and creativity on the podcast and TYM. Spamming one overpowered projectile should not constitute a zoning character in modern fighting games, especially when they get "normalized" to oblivion (i.e., Deadshot in Injustice 2). However, there have been improvements recently (i.e., Cetrion in MK11, Ashrah and Shang Tsung in MK1, etc.)

Omni-Man is on the opposite side of the "boring and overpowered zoning character" spectrum. While the jury is obviously still out on his tier placement, the fact is of the matter is that he is inconceivably easy to use yet highly effective. He is the scrubbiest anti-zoning character since Injustice 1 pre-patch Scorpion. At least Scorpion was released as such in a game that had top tier zoning characters. Why MK1, on the other hand, needs an obnoxious anti-zoning character like Omni-Man is beyond me.
 

Ray'sGoodLiquor

I don't care I'm not a competitive player anymore
I have criticized NRS zoning characters for their lack of variety and creativity on the podcast and TYM. Spamming one overpowered projectile should not constitute a zoning character in modern fighting games, especially when they get "normalized" to oblivion (i.e., Deadshot in Injustice 2). However, there have been improvements recently (i.e., Cetrion in MK11, Ashrah and Shang Tsung in MK1, etc.)

Omni-Man is on the opposite side of the "boring and overpowered zoning character" spectrum. While the jury is obviously still out on his tier placement, the fact is of the matter is that he is inconceivably easy to use yet highly effective. He is the scrubbiest anti-zoning character since Injustice 1 pre-patch Scorpion. At least Scorpion was released as such in a game that had top tier zoning characters. Why MK1, on the other hand, needs an obnoxious anti-zoning character like Omni-Man is beyond me.
What do you think about the potential for Ermac? Force push/lift may cover a lot of space and might not interact with anti-zoning tools like a projectile.
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
What do you think about the potential for Ermac? Force push/lift may cover a lot of space and might not interact with anti-zoning tools like a projectile.
Correct.

Ermac could be an effective mid-range zoning character who, when paired with a kameo like Kung Lao or Sareena, would also have commanding full-screen presence.

You never know with NRS because a character's gameplay style can vary wildly from game to game. One can reasonably assume that Ermac (and Quan Chi) would lean toward the zoning archetype, though.

This is who I'm most curious to hear your thoughts on.
Coming up very soon.
 

Arqwart

D'Vorah for KP2 copium
Correct.

Ermac could be an effective mid-range zoning character who, when paired with a kameo like Kung Lao or Sareena, would also have commanding full-screen presence.

You never know with NRS because a character's gameplay style can vary wildly from game to game. One can reasonably assume that Ermac (and Quan Chi) would lean toward the zoning archetype, though.
I do hope Ermac ends up being a mid-range god. While I did greatly enjoy MKX Ermac due to nigh-instant Shove shenanigans in neutral, he was still very much a heavy pressure character (like literally everyone in that game). Always a huge fan of characters that thrive off changing desired distance depending on the matchup and/or situation. It's why Kitana is always a top favorite of mine.

Quan is an odd one as he tends to lean towards zoning combined with setplay as opposed to just being purely zoning. He was a monster at keepaway for some patches in MKX, but he still mainly thrived off forcing opponents into mistakes to end up doing 50/50 trance loops. Fingers crossed we get a rune sorcerer Quan for MK1 that can beat people down from a distance.
 
So Omni man gets an auto projectile immunity stance that he can mash for fullscreen punish on reaction, but Shang can't even buffer specials attacks during raw stance change without it dropping input while being forced to stand.

cant you shoot one skull to trigger the parry, then morph into omniman before he can cancel out?
 

Chubbuddy

The Quirkiest
My hot take: Breh, zoning is ASS in Mortal Kombat 1. Who are the anti-zoning zealots who developed and tested this game?

:DOGE

Comments on the characters (as of 11/12)...

Ashrah – mid-range Goddess and most likely the best character on this list. I honestly have nothing witty to say that you have not read or seen about this character already. Ashrah is ideally paired with Sareena to maximize damage output on combos, enable certain conversions, and gain access to full-screen projectiles, which she lacks in light stance. Dark stance is somewhat unexplored and underutilized so there may be further potential to this character.

Liu Kang – the character with the most intuitive and best traditional zoning on this list. The high and low projectiles combined with the low hat result in some effective zoning. However, the real reason that most tournament players place Liu very high on tier lists is because he is as good up close as he is from far away. He has some strong strings and a back throw that launches when you choose Kung Lao as your kameo, which you always should, so the strike / throw mix is one of the best in the game.

Rain – the "premier zoning character" meme lives on. I like Rain with Sub Zero, who complements Rain's zoning, combos, and set play. Unfortunately, Rain's base zoning toolkit is substandard. While Rain God and water stream are serviceable, water stream and water bubble leave more to be desired. In a post Cyrax meta that has affected every aspect of Rain's offense and defense, I believe that this character is worthy of some meaningful buffs, exclusively to water stream and water bubble in order to remain true to the intended "premier zoning character" design.

Reiko – you have to make a decision with Reiko. The dilemma is choosing zoning over damage, in which case Reiko/Kung Lao or Reiko/Stryker is your team, or choosing damage over zoning, in which case Reiko/Darrius is your team. Top tier characters like Ashrah and Liu Kang do not have to choose one over the other. They offer the complete package with their best kameo. Besides, results have indicated that Reiko/Darrius is the best team, which I consider more of a command grab archetype rather than a zoning one.

Shang Tsung – in theory, most of Shang’s match ups, even the hardest ones, should be around 5:5 because of morphing, which is better than ever in this game. In practice, however, I am not convinced that such is the case. I think Shang is very difficult to use because of morphing and constant stance switching. Some of his conversions are also complicated as a ground skull can bounce your opponent toward or away from you, depending where and how exactly the move hits. Speaking of bouncing, I have seen tier lists in which he is placed top 10, but I have also seen tier lists in which he is placed bottom 10. I suppose the jury is still out on this subject. One thing is certain, though. Shang is most definitely a zoning character, with some of the highest meter-less damage in the game.

Sindel – my least familiar character on this list. She seems like a lesser Liu Kang in the sense that she has a slower high and low projectile, inferior strings that are not auto-shimmies, and no additional perks like a launching back throw or exceptional damage output. She does have a solid instant aerial projectile, though. Outside of the infinite combos that keep getting discovered and patched, she seems average to me. A couple of talented players, notably Koisy and Ludi, are placing consistently with Sindel.
Most people just absolutely hated zoning in the past few games. They went back to the ideas people liked, and pretty much everyone (mostly their casual audience) abhorred the zoning. They just gave into the casual players yet again.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
Most people just absolutely hated zoning in the past few games. They went back to the ideas people liked, and pretty much everyone (mostly their casual audience) abhorred the zoning. They just gave into the casual players yet again.
Casual players also hate being rushed down, being locked down and forced to block, being subjected to long combos, high-execution mechanics and stances, and just about everything else. So if what they complain about is the standard, then this game isn't for them either.
 

Chubbuddy

The Quirkiest
Casual players also hate being rushed down, being locked down and forced to block, being subjected to long combos, high-execution mechanics and stances, and just about everything else. So if what they complain about is the standard, then this game isn't for them either.
True, but I feel like it's zoning that everyone kind of rags on.
 
Casual players also hate being rushed down, being locked down and forced to block, being subjected to long combos, high-execution mechanics and stances, and just about everything else. So if what they complain about is the standard, then this game isn't for them either.
I have seen Foxy and Shujinkydink and Sooneo all Zone KL players from Day1 release to current day KL and every stream when they are just throwing high projectiles for meter build, nothing a pro player would remotely be concerned about and they are extremely hateful. Racist remarks, calling them Scrubs, screaming "why are you playing like that you are bad at this game"
I haven't seen the same reaction and hate for Rushdown. If they make excuses for that it's Lag or character OP but they're not pissing on the Rushdown style, it's zoning that makes them throw down the controller and scream broke and nerf plz.
Obviously they complain about everything but it doesn't feel like the majority are unified on rushdown hate. Zoning hate is hate for zoning.
Rushdown hate is always directed at S Tiers/The characters/Kameos or this broke setup, not the Rushdown style as a strategy. I feel they actually feel Rushdown and combos are "Skill" markers.
Just from my observations and personal experience.
I only hated zoning against Zod but everything in MK1 has counterplay and I respect players that try to make zoning work against very powerful anti space control options.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
Rushdown hate is always directed at S Tiers/The characters/Kameos or this broke setup, not the Rushdown style as a strategy. I feel they actually feel Rushdown and combos are "Skill" markers.
To me this sounds more like people who actually relatively know how to play. Most true casuals don't know anything about tiers or setups, and don't even really know which characters are actually best in the game, just which ones they think are 'cheap'.

When you get hatemail for "combo spamming" or "using the same OP attack/string over and over again", that's an actual casual. When they're complaining that Johnny Cage's is frame data is too good while watching ECT or TheMightyUnjust's stream, that's somebody that's probably part of the FGC.
 
To me this sounds more like people who actually relatively know how to play. Most true casuals don't know anything about tiers or setups, and don't even really know which characters are actually best in the game, just which ones they think are 'cheap'.

When you get hatemail for "combo spamming" or "using the same OP attack/string over and over again", that's an actual casual. When they're complaining that Johnny Cage's is frame data is too good while watching ECT or TheMightyUnjust's stream, that's somebody that's probably part of the FGC.
Nah they aren't talking about frame data. There are tons of casual TV hubs on YouTube like TrueUnderdogGaming, BruskPoet, NickOpz, UncagedGames
And they all have Tier lists, they got some right but most wrong.
These players heard in these pros streams screaming are complaining about the characters they face against wether it was Foxy using Sub Zero, Kitana, Shang, Li Mei, Reptile. Didn't matter which one he used, they where all broken S Tiers in their eyes.
The thing they all hated the most was zoning. I've heard them say Throws OP or your characters broke but never your offensive style is broken and lame. But the opposite is true for zoning which is fairly easy to get around in MK1 and Rushdown is pretty difficult to avoid and even deal with in some cases.
One funny thing is that all of them called some of the best players in the world garbage, that "they don't know how to play and just abusing broke shit" = "zoning is broke"
Lol

Examples:
In this the very start dude crying that Foxy zones the whole game doesn't know how to play and is garbage, Foxy says I'll beat you with your own character then does. We've all seen this one but here:

BTW I've watched Foxy for a long time and he's almost always never rude until they are obnoxiously horrible. Watched him help many of his opponents for free.

Face me in a real zoning game:

Another Foxy Grampa as ToiletTarry69 LMAO and the guy is saying "Go ahead and Spam your projectile, Foxy's reply is, "you are no match for the Toilet" I'm dead lol

This one is just funny it's Rewind using Reiko in possibly the worst online connection because of others in KOTH:
Dude was baffled by teaching a throw, says "How, Wait" lol
But I can't find the Shujinkydink one he did a stream using Shang and zoned and definitely got constantly attacked for it all KL
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
True, but I feel like it's zoning that everyone kind of rags on.
I received the most praise from casual fighting game spectators when I was using Tremor in MKX. They also supported me when Kitana or Predator players would zone me. On the other hand, I received nothing but vitriol while playing characters like Freddy, Deathstroke, and Zod. Although they can and do complain about every gameplay style, there is no doubt that the casual audience tends to correlate combos and rush down with skill yet zoning with a lack of skill, cheapness, cowardice, etc. MK1 was designed with this perspective in mind.
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
Premium Supporter
You can absolutely be a casual and also be apart of the FGC. Just like you can be a scrub and be apart of the FGC. Just like you can be a tournament player and still have a scrubby mentality. None of these are mutually exclusive.

Projectile zoning definitely is hated on more than any other type of play style, along with the “keep away” type of play. This has been the case ever since I got into the FGC way back in 2007. That doesn’t mean that it’s the only play style that is complained about, absolutely not. Scrubs will complain about literally everything someone does. It’s just that projectile zoning is far more hated on and hated on more deeply it seems. And it isn’t just random online scrubs or casuals. People have literally boo’d players in tournaments that projectile zone, especially if both players are doing it. And it has happened in more than just NRS games. But it does tend to happen more often in NRS games and I think that’s because projectile zoning wars aren’t as fun to watch in NRS games compared to games like SF.

Anyway, I think one reason projectile zoning is more complained about is because it’s easier to identify as a casual or scrub. While it’s much harder for them to identify you whiff punishing them, putting them into 50/50’s, frame trapping them, and even just using solid fundamentals. Besides that, they also feel like projectile zoning “takes no skill”. Which is always funny when they say that against someone like F0xy so he tells them that they couldn’t win against him by doing it and they couldn’t out zone him, which they always try, and of course they fail miserably. Which is almost always followed by “yeah that’s because you have more practice & experience playing this way!”. Just excuse after excuse, which is ironically the exact reason they’re losing. They never take responsibility, they just blame literally anything and everything they can but themselves.