The State of Zoning and Overall Strategy in Mortal Kombat 1

[ShaolinGunFu]

Is REO still alive? I assumed he got a tester nrs job and cant stream anymore.

 

[rifraf]

Is REO still alive? I assumed he got a tester nrs job and cant stream anymore.

I follow him on youtube and stuff but he's been away from his channels for years now. I do wish he'd come back with his regular content but that's me being selfish. I hope the guy is all good.

 

[M2Dave]

Is REO still alive? I assumed he got a tester nrs job and cant stream anymore.

I talked to REO one month ago. Tom and I have been trying to collaborate a podcast series with REO and Crimson like the good, old days.

Sometimes people need a break from video games. Sometimes they simply move on. My cousin, with whom I played fighting games for over a decade, has also stopped playing. Losing training partners sucks.

I do believe that this game is definitely worth playing. Best MK game since MK9.

 

[SaladPlateLover]

There are a couple of things that make zoning seem less effective than it could.

• Lack of enhanced mid projectiles - This is probably one of the biggest and why Reiko seems so strong. Katana is one that comes to mind who is missing the ability to enhance her straight fan for a mid. She has the air fan that hits mid, but it disappears if not enhanced. If enhanced it becomes a launcher. It seems like that's the typical tradeoff in MK1. Bar for launch, not mid. Li Mei and Mileena are the same.
• The Kameo system - The kameo system brings anti-zoning tools. Sub zero's ice jacket and potential fireballs from Serena, Lao, or Sonya, for example, can bring anti-zoning tools to someone like Johnny when he's currently only got armor.
• Damage payout - As people have mentioned, the damage isn't low in this game. Getting punished for throwing a fireball can make it seem not worth throwing the fireball. The chip damage is probably higher than it should be on these characters that have strings/specials that hit 5+ times and getting hit is death. Teleport characters exist in the MK universe and the unsafe option of a teleport often lends itself to really high damage as well.

Personally, I'm enjoying Kitana. Her zoning options seem to be fine and if someone starts to push in she has a pretty good range on her B2 mid. Her traps and pokes make her zoning game decently effective for me so far. She's got no mixup, though. Makes me feel a little better about my wins because she seems like a fair character.

Honestly, I'd rather have a real grappler. Reiko seems like he's a jack of all trades with a command grab, rather than an actual grappler. His damage seems like it's really low and can only become passable with the usage of Darrius. This means he can only get a decent combo once every 25-30 seconds? (I don't know the cooldown time) I've been testing out a few other Kameos and Darrius is the most amount of damage I've found so far. Combine that with the fact that it's the only damage he can get from any mixup and there's no reason to play Reiko over a more consistent character like Kitana.

Really nice point on ex projectiles. Not only does Reiko's become a mid but it becomes unjumpable. Projectiles becoming a launcher with meter doesn't work with the ex system because you can't know it's gonna land in neutral. In mk11 Rain's projectile launcher is good since the meterburn system allows you to hit confirm it. I think Sinestro had this too but it's been so long I'm not sure

 

[CrimsonShadow]

If being toxic is quoting the individuals who played a role in creating and/or polishing the game and holding them accountable for their words, I suppose that I am guilty as charged. LOL.

You always seem to give the NRS developers the benefit of the doubt, yet the players, even the ones who clearly preface their opinions as initial reactions, you show little to no compassion. You surreptitiously criticize and take nonstop cheap shots at players, including your most recent comment on "low-tier, unviable Sub Zero". You love cherry picking results in order to make points that are aberrational in nature.

REO and Tom need to bring back the podcast because I have plenty to say.

I think it’s more accurate to say that I agree with players who aren’t writing characters off wholesale in the second week of a game, before fully exploring the mechanics. And the ones who inform their own opinions, rather than going by somebody else's first impression.

"Before you gab, hit the lab!"

 

[Son ov Timett]

I talked to REO one month ago. Tom and I have been trying to collaborate a podcast series with REO and Crimson like the good, old days.

Sometimes people need a break from video games. Sometimes they simply move on. My cousin, with whom I played fighting games for over a decade, has also stopped playing. Losing training partners sucks.

I do believe that this game is definitely worth playing. Best MK game since MK9.

Bring that shit back brutha. Worst case start it off as a two man power trip (You and Tom) with a 3rd man as a revolving guest.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Bring that shit back brutha. Worst case start it off as a two man power trip (You and Tom) with a 3rd man as a revolving guest.

I’d frankly rather just hear Dave and a guest

 

[rifraf]

I mean, the kommunity needs a podcast guys

 

[Marinjuana]

The people want the podcast!

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Dave I swear if we start the first episode and you're talking about Robocop in MK11..

 

[CipherJ]

Really nice point on ex projectiles. Not only does Reiko's become a mid but it becomes unjumpable. Projectiles becoming a launcher with meter doesn't work with the ex system because you can't know it's gonna land in neutral. In mk11 Rain's projectile launcher is good since the meterburn system allows you to hit confirm it. I think Sinestro had this too but it's been so long I'm not sure

Just to point out Li Mei’s ex projectile is good for combo extensions. May be can hit confirm off starter string, but not sure.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Dave! They released a character just for you:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1722667034830364853

 

[ShaolinGunFu]

Omni looking like the premier anti zoner now

 

[M2Dave]

Dave! They released a character just for you:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1722667034830364853

For the players who have had issues closing the gap in this highly zoning-friendly game...

 

[Eji1700]

For the players who have had issues closing the gap in this highly zoning-friendly game...

Bet's on clap being a better zoning tool than 90% of what the cast has access to?

 

[ShaolinGunFu]

Ex clap has similar range as mileenas sais, regular clap only works at starting distance.

 

[M2Dave]

I was going to rant about Omni-Man, but I already did on last night's podcast. Instead, on a positive note, I would like to share my opinions about all the zoning characters in this game and get the Zoning Academy's (sorry for the corniness) reaction.

Ashrah – mid-range Goddess and most likely the best character on this list. I honestly have nothing witty to say that you have not read or seen about this character already. Ashrah is ideally paired with Sareena to maximize damage output on combos, enable certain conversions, and gain access to full-screen projectiles, which she lacks in light stance. Dark stance is somewhat unexplored and underutilized so there may be further potential to this character.

Liu Kang – the character with the most intuitive and best traditional zoning on this list. The high and low projectiles combined with the low hat result in some effective zoning. However, the real reason that most tournament players place Liu very high on tier lists is because he is as good up close as he is from far away. He has some strong strings and a back throw that launches when you choose Kung Lao as your kameo, which you always should, so the strike / throw mix is one of the best in the game.

Rain – the "premier zoning character" meme lives on. I like Rain with Sub Zero, who complements Rain's zoning, combos, and set play. Unfortunately, Rain's base zoning toolkit is substandard. While Rain God and water stream are serviceable, water stream and water bubble leave more to be desired. In a post Cyrax meta that has affected every aspect of Rain's offense and defense, I believe that this character is worthy of some meaningful buffs, exclusively to water stream and water bubble in order to remain true to the intended "premier zoning character" design.

Reiko – you have to make a decision with Reiko. The dilemma is choosing zoning over damage, in which case Reiko/Kung Lao or Reiko/Stryker is your team, or choosing damage over zoning, in which case Reiko/Darrius is your team. Top tier characters like Ashrah and Liu Kang do not have to choose one over the other. They offer the complete package with their best kameo. Besides, results have indicated that Reiko/Darrius is the best team, which I consider more of a command grab archetype rather than a zoning one.

Shang Tsung – in theory, most of Shang’s match ups, even the hardest ones, should be around 5:5 because of morphing, which is better than ever in this game. In practice, however, I am not convinced that such is the case. I think Shang is very difficult to use because of morphing and constant stance switching. Some of his conversions are also complicated as a ground skull can bounce your opponent toward or away from you, depending where and how exactly the move hits. Speaking of bouncing, I have seen tier lists in which he is placed top 10, but I have also seen tier lists in which he is placed bottom 10. I suppose the jury is still out on this subject. One thing is certain, though. Shang is most definitely a zoning character, with some of the highest meter-less damage in the game.

Sindel – my least familiar character on this list. She seems like a lesser Liu Kang in the sense that she has a slower high and low projectile, inferior strings that are not auto-shimmies, and no additional perks like a launching back throw or exceptional damage output. She does have a solid instant aerial projectile, though. Outside of the infinite combos that keep getting discovered and patched, she seems average to me. A couple of talented players, notably Koisy and Ludi, are placing consistently with Sindel.

 

[Amplified$hotz]

I was going to rant about Omni-Man, but I already did on last night's podcast. Instead, on a positive note, I would like to share my opinions about all the zoning characters in this game and get the Zoning Academy's (sorry for the corniness) reaction.

Ashrah – mid-range Goddess and most likely the best character on this list. I honestly have nothing witty to say that you have not read or seen about this character already. Ashrah is ideally paired with Sareena to maximize damage output on combos, enable certain conversions, and gain access to full-screen projectiles, which she lacks in light stance. Dark stance is somewhat unexplored and underutilized so there may be further potential to this character.

Liu Kang – the character with the most intuitive and best traditional zoning on this list. The high and low projectiles combined with the low hat result in some effective zoning. However, the real reason that most tournament players place Liu very high on tier lists is because he is as good up close as he is from far away. He has some strong strings and a back throw that launches when you choose Kung Lao as your kameo, which you always should, so the strike / throw mix is one of the best in the game.

Rain – the "premier zoning character" meme lives on. I like Rain with Sub Zero, who complements Rain's zoning, combos, and set play. Unfortunately, Rain's base zoning toolkit is substandard. While Rain God and water stream are serviceable, water stream and water bubble leave more to be desired. In a post Cyrax meta that has affected every aspect of Rain's offense and defense, I believe that this character is worthy of some meaningful buffs, exclusively to water stream and water bubble in order to remain true to the intended "premier zoning character" design.

Reiko – you have to make a decision with Reiko. The dilemma is choosing zoning over damage, in which case Reiko/Kung Lao or Reiko/Stryker is your team, or choosing damage over zoning, in which case Reiko/Darrius is your team. Top tier characters like Ashrah and Liu Kang do not have to choose one over the other. They offer the complete package with their best kameo. Besides, results have indicated that Reiko/Darrius is the best team, which I consider more of a command grab archetype rather than a zoning one.

Shang Tsung – in theory, most of Shang’s match ups, even the hardest ones, should be around 5:5 because of morphing, which is better than ever in this game. In practice, however, I am not convinced that such is the case. I think Shang is very difficult to use because of morphing and constant stance switching. Some of his conversions are also complicated as a ground skull can bounce your opponent toward or away from you, depending where and how exactly the move hits. Speaking of bouncing, I have seen tier lists in which he is placed top 10, but I have also seen tier lists in which he is placed bottom 10. I suppose the jury is still out on this subject. One thing is certain, though. Shang is most definitely a zoning character, with some of the highest meter-less damage in the game.

Sindel – my least familiar character on this list. She seems like a lesser Liu Kang in the sense that she has a slower high and low projectile, inferior strings that are not auto-shimmies, and no additional perks like a launching back throw or exceptional damage output. She does have a solid instant aerial projectile, though. Outside of the infinite combos that keep getting discovered and patched, she seems average to me. A couple of talented players, notably Koisy and Ludi, are placing consistently with Sindel.

You forgot Sub-Zero.

 

[ShaolinGunFu]

You getting angry at anti zoning tools is a worn out meme now @M2Dave. When shang is throwing skulls at johnny cage he shouldnt be throwing and jabbing full screen, when johnny cage is stomping out shang tsung in the corner shang shouldnt throw projectiles, you dealing with anti zoning is where you get to show your talent. Teleporting strike/throw and projectiles have been in mk since 1992, its rock paper scissors but you want it to be odd vs evens.

 

[Blakfellow]

top

You getting angry at anti zoning tools is a worn out meme now @M2Dave. When shang is throwing skulls at johnny cage he shouldnt be throwing and jabbing full screen, when johnny cage is stomping out shang tsung in the corner shang shouldnt throw projectiles, you dealing with anti zoning is where you get to show your talent. Teleporting strike/throw and projectiles have been in mk since 1992, it’s rock paper scissors but you want it to be odd vs evens.

Not really. Many times m2dave does exaggerate a bit but it’s true to say that zoning has never been so weak in an nrs game as it is in this one.

Imo Omni man is a love letter to scrubs. They intentionally make dlc like this so they can increase sales.

And I’m definitely not a player that loves to zone

 

[ShaolinGunFu]

The weakest archetype is grappler/anti rushdown, theres plenty of projectiles we need a solomen grundy for dlc to give cages a reason to run

 

[M2Dave]

You forgot Sub-Zero.

I actually forgot Kitana, whom I will add later.

Once the ice clone functions properly, I will add Sub Zero too.

You getting angry at anti zoning tools is a worn out meme now @M2Dave. When shang is throwing skulls at johnny cage he shouldnt be throwing and jabbing full screen, when johnny cage is stomping out shang tsung in the corner shang shouldnt throw projectiles, you dealing with anti zoning is where you get to show your talent. Teleporting strike/throw and projectiles have been in mk since 1992, its rock paper scissors but you want it to be odd vs evens.

You are feeling bad about Johnny Cage in this game because of Shang Tsung's skulls? What? LOL.

The weakest archetype is grappler/anti rushdown, theres plenty of projectiles we need a solomen grundy for dlc to give cages a reason to run

Geras/Kung Lao and Reiko/Darrius are solid grapplers.

Anti rush down characters include Kung Lao/Goro and Tanya/Goro because of safe, armored launchers.

If anything, the game needs a top tier zoning DLC, especially after Omni-Man's release.

 

[ReD WolF]

I was going to rant about Omni-Man, but I already did on last night's podcast. Instead, on a positive note, I would like to share my opinions about all the zoning characters in this game and get the Zoning Academy's (sorry for the corniness) reaction.

Ashrah – mid-range Goddess and most likely the best character on this list. I honestly have nothing witty to say that you have not read or seen about this character already. Ashrah is ideally paired with Sareena to maximize damage output on combos, enable certain conversions, and gain access to full-screen projectiles, which she lacks in light stance. Dark stance is somewhat unexplored and underutilized so there may be further potential to this character.

Liu Kang – the character with the most intuitive and best traditional zoning on this list. The high and low projectiles combined with the low hat result in some effective zoning. However, the real reason that most tournament players place Liu very high on tier lists is because he is as good up close as he is from far away. He has some strong strings and a back throw that launches when you choose Kung Lao as your kameo, which you always should, so the strike / throw mix is one of the best in the game.

Rain – the "premier zoning character" meme lives on. I like Rain with Sub Zero, who complements Rain's zoning, combos, and set play. Unfortunately, Rain's base zoning toolkit is substandard. While Rain God and water stream are serviceable, water stream and water bubble leave more to be desired. In a post Cyrax meta that has affected every aspect of Rain's offense and defense, I believe that this character is worthy of some meaningful buffs, exclusively to water stream and water bubble in order to remain true to the intended "premier zoning character" design.

Reiko – you have to make a decision with Reiko. The dilemma is choosing zoning over damage, in which case Reiko/Kung Lao or Reiko/Stryker is your team, or choosing damage over zoning, in which case Reiko/Darrius is your team. Top tier characters like Ashrah and Liu Kang do not have to choose one over the other. They offer the complete package with their best kameo. Besides, results have indicated that Reiko/Darrius is the best team, which I consider more of a command grab archetype rather than a zoning one.

Shang Tsung – in theory, most of Shang’s match ups, even the hardest ones, should be around 5:5 because of morphing, which is better than ever in this game. In practice, however, I am not convinced that such is the case. I think Shang is very difficult to use because of morphing and constant stance switching. Some of his conversions are also complicated as a ground skull can bounce your opponent toward or away from you, depending where and how exactly the move hits. Speaking of bouncing, I have seen tier lists in which he is placed top 10, but I have also seen tier lists in which he is placed bottom 10. I suppose the jury is still out on this subject. One thing is certain, though. Shang is most definitely a zoning character, with some of the highest meter-less damage in the game.

Sindel – my least familiar character on this list. She seems like a lesser Liu Kang in the sense that she has a slower high and low projectile, inferior strings that are not auto-shimmies, and no additional perks like a launching back throw or exceptional damage output. She does have a solid instant aerial projectile, though. Outside of the infinite combos that keep getting discovered and patched, she seems average to me. A couple of talented players, notably Koisy and Ludi, are placing consistently with Sindel.

When are you guys planning on releasing it?

 

[M2Dave]

When are you guys planning on releasing it?

 

[Ray'sGoodLiquor]

I was going to rant about Omni-Man, but I already did on last night's podcast. Instead, on a positive note, I would like to share my opinions about all the zoning characters in this game and get the Zoning Academy's (sorry for the corniness) reaction.

Ashrah – mid-range Goddess and most likely the best character on this list. I honestly have nothing witty to say that you have not read or seen about this character already. Ashrah is ideally paired with Sareena to maximize damage output on combos, enable certain conversions, and gain access to full-screen projectiles, which she lacks in light stance. Dark stance is somewhat unexplored and underutilized so there may be further potential to this character.

Liu Kang – the character with the most intuitive and best traditional zoning on this list. The high and low projectiles combined with the low hat result in some effective zoning. However, the real reason that most tournament players place Liu very high on tier lists is because he is as good up close as he is from far away. He has some strong strings and a back throw that launches when you choose Kung Lao as your kameo, which you always should, so the strike / throw mix is one of the best in the game.

Rain – the "premier zoning character" meme lives on. I like Rain with Sub Zero, who complements Rain's zoning, combos, and set play. Unfortunately, Rain's base zoning toolkit is substandard. While Rain God and water stream are serviceable, water stream and water bubble leave more to be desired. In a post Cyrax meta that has affected every aspect of Rain's offense and defense, I believe that this character is worthy of some meaningful buffs, exclusively to water stream and water bubble in order to remain true to the intended "premier zoning character" design.

Reiko – you have to make a decision with Reiko. The dilemma is choosing zoning over damage, in which case Reiko/Kung Lao or Reiko/Stryker is your team, or choosing damage over zoning, in which case Reiko/Darrius is your team. Top tier characters like Ashrah and Liu Kang do not have to choose one over the other. They offer the complete package with their best kameo. Besides, results have indicated that Reiko/Darrius is the best team, which I consider more of a command grab archetype rather than a zoning one.

Shang Tsung – in theory, most of Shang’s match ups, even the hardest ones, should be around 5:5 because of morphing, which is better than ever in this game. In practice, however, I am not convinced that such is the case. I think Shang is very difficult to use because of morphing and constant stance switching. Some of his conversions are also complicated as a ground skull can bounce your opponent toward or away from you, depending where and how exactly the move hits. Speaking of bouncing, I have seen tier lists in which he is placed top 10, but I have also seen tier lists in which he is placed bottom 10. I suppose the jury is still out on this subject. One thing is certain, though. Shang is most definitely a zoning character, with some of the highest meter-less damage in the game.

Sindel – my least familiar character on this list. She seems like a lesser Liu Kang in the sense that she has a slower high and low projectile, inferior strings that are not auto-shimmies, and no additional perks like a launching back throw or exceptional damage output. She does have a solid instant aerial projectile, though. Outside of the infinite combos that keep getting discovered and patched, she seems average to me. A couple of talented players, notably Koisy and Ludi, are placing consistently with Sindel.

Small correction. Liu does have the best throw-strike in the game but he can also get it off Motaro. His up close game is arguably better than with Lao as he has more options to get in or counter zone, as opposed to using low hat to out-zone. It all relies on teleports so the things that may get nerfed in the future for Lao will have no affect on Liu's up close game.