The official buffs/nerfs discussion thread.

[AC1984]

"I'll give you an example with my main: Stryker. You can buff Stryker all you want, but he'll still BADLY lose to KL and Kabal because of their dumb recovery on their projectiles and other properties. In a lot of cases what makes more sense is to actually tone down the top 5 and remove those broken properties instead of buffing 20 characters for no good reason."

What you say makes perfect sense....those characters are meant to be the way they are...unfortunately some are more powerful than others....thats the way it is...toning some characters down will actually make the character useless.....

By cry babies I didn't mean the serious players....I mean players who constantly say "fuck Kung Lao, tone him down....give -30000 frames on the spin"

 

[RWDY Nori]

Make Raiden's teleport like MK2 teleport (superman is fine the way it is, even EX superman) and there will be less crying about teleports. He's good, nowhere near broken.

KL after this patch should never, ever be complained about again

I honestly feel Reptile and Kabal are fine the way they are

Cyrax, obviously, does not need 59% combos, that's just silly. Give Cyrax better defensive options, tone down his silly damage and you have a solution IMO

 

[Vulcan Hades]

Reptile is perfectly fine.

Kabal doesn't need a nerf but rather a fix. According to frame data, his projectiles are supposed to have 15 start up frames, the exact same as Liu Kang's fireballs. But unlike Liu Kang, Kabal's projectiles come out on the screen on frame 0. Now this is a problem because it means even Noob Saibot cannot zone him a little bit. Something as stupid as this creates unnecessary 2-8 and 3-7 matchups. If his projectiles get fixed, his good matchups will still be 6-4 or 7-3. All it will mean is that he won't be able to "cheat" in zoning like he currently can.

To compensate for this fix, I think they should slightly reduce recovery on his groundsaw or something.

 

[AC1984]

recovery on the saw??? its way more than enough that you cannot spam it....Kabal's spin is ridiculously punishable....and I think that compensates

 

[MagicMan357]

kabals projectiles have way too much advantage buts that basically it for him

 

[SZSR]

Reptile is perfectly fine.

Kabal doesn't need a nerf but rather a fix. According to frame data, his projectiles are supposed to have 15 start up frames, the exact same as Liu Kang's fireballs. But unlike Liu Kang, Kabal's projectiles come out on the screen on frame 0. Now this is a problem because it means even Noob Saibot cannot zone him a little bit. Something as stupid as this creates unnecessary 2-8 and 3-7 matchups. If his projectiles get fixed, his good matchups will still be 6-4 or 7-3. All it will mean is that he won't be able to "cheat" in zoning like he currently can.

To compensate for this fix, I think they should slightly reduce recovery on his groundsaw.

Well, maybe NRS can try to fix that glitch instead? Recovery change might not be needed if they do make it come out on frame 15.

 

[Vulcan Hades]

edit: whoops, guess I just misread your post AC1984

My point is no projectile should come out on frame 0 when you're supposed to have 15 start up frames. Not fair for Liu Kang and other zoners lol.

If Reptile's force balls, Stryker's gun, Kitana's fan, Shang Tsung's skulls or Sub's ice blast came out on frame 0 you would all scream injustice.

 

[AC1984]

Exactly.....the recovery is fine,....you can at least punish it uploce.....less recovery will make him too nasty cause the Tornado slam is almost safe...ground saw safe, IAFB...kind of too much...its good the way it is.....

 

[rev0lver]

Kitana's fans should come out of frame 0.

 

[Sentry_Gun]

Kitana's fans should come out of frame 0.

 

[Trini_Bwoi]

Okay well if this topic is serious...

My main is Noob. He is primarily a zoning/keepaway character, yet he can be outzoned by a few characters and loses on trades against many others (which inhibits his zoning). Still, he has some matchups in his favour. Noob has little redeeming qualities outside of his zoning game though, so I feel like since it can be outmatched, that is a problem. So what needs buffing and nerfing to help this...

Nerf every character that can outzone/win trades against Noob? Like Kabal and Sub-Zero...I'm no Kabal expert but it looks like those IAFs are important to Kabal's game. And Sub-Zero's Iceball is already slow enough as it is. This would remedy Noob's problem but it screws up too many other characters.

Give Noob's Shadow projectiles better recovery? This would help a little when getting outzoned and a lot when losing trades. BUT, the matchups already in Noob's favor like Cage, Baraka and Jax swing even MORE in Noob's favor and balance is thrown out the window. This would not be fair to those characters.

So, here's my suggestion. On hit, the recovery frames on the Shadow Tackle are canceled. Just like, say, Kung Lao's Spin. This would certainly help where he would get outzoned or lose trades. And it doesn't boost matches already in his favor, since on block, the shadows will still be just as unsafe. Because the Tackle knocks back and down, Noob wouldn't get any weird combo or reset opportunities. HELL, this also solves another problem where occasionally, Shadow Tackles are punishable on wake-up. This cannot be applied to his Low Slide though since that leaves the opponent standing on hit.

Well that's my proposed buff to Noob and I think it's a clever way to give his zoning game an edge without throwing other things out of balance. Let's hear what you guys have to say on this.

 

[Ether]

I don't like or care about Noob at all, but that proposed buff is godlike and would make me want to play the character.

 

[elamit]

Main: Kano, Kabal
Buff: Kano, Kabal
Nerf: No one

I only say buff these 2 because they were nerfed in the 1st place. (buff them back to normal)
Why not nerf anyone? Because we got by just fine before these assholes decided to listen to all
of the crying bitches complain about why they lose.

No one likes to lose, we get it! But you must lose to improve your game. We are now in a
society of "gamers" who are soft as the fat on their mothers asses. Not only do they complain
about losing, (which I can deal with) but they want to tell you HOW they want to be beaten!
If I decide I want to whip your ass with 12 knife tosses in a row, if you CAN'T escape then your
precious fighter dies! People are going to complain regardless!
STOP NERFING CHARACTERS!!!

 

[rev0lver]

I only say buff these 2 because they were nerfed in the 1st place. (buff them back to normal)
Why not nerf anyone? Because we got by just fine before these assholes decided to listen to all
of the crying bitches complain about why they lose.

I stopped reading right there. You can't get away with saying Kabal should go back to pre-patch. Block infinites should NEVER be kept in any game, and you can bet your ass this game might be dead by now if that was still there.

 

[Past]

Buff: Kabal

I agree they should buff Kabal and put back his block infinite. He now struggles too much against certain characters because of these complaining assholes. These babies need to stop whining and learn the matchup. BRING BACK THE BLOCK INFINITE!!!

 

[elamit]

I stopped reading right there. You can't get away with saying Kabal should go back to pre-patch. Block infinites should NEVER be kept in any game, and you can bet your ass this game might be dead by now if that was still there.

Understandable revolver, but I disagree that people would stop playing. Perhaps the block inf w/kabal is a bit much, but if you play with kabal you know
the countless hours and hard work it would take to get that dash cancel to work consistently.

 

[Subby]

I agree they should buff Kabal and put back his block infinite. He now struggles too much against certain characters because of these complaining assholes. These babies need to stop whining and learn the matchup. BRING BACK THE BLOCK INFINITE!!!

He already had much going for him. The block infinite was pushing it.

 

[RWDY Nori]

the countless hours and hard work it would take to get that dash cancel to work consistently.

It took me 36 min to master his dash cancel. It's not nearly as hard as you make it out to be. Kabal needs no buff. At all. Kano needs a buff or 2, yes. Kabal if anything needs nerfs. He's perfect the way he is, literally. I'm still convinced he's the best char in the game

 

[NogunYesknife]

It took me 36 min to master his dash cancel. It's not nearly as hard as you make it out to be. Kabal needs no buff. At all. Kano needs a buff or 2, yes. Kabal if anything needs nerfs. He's perfect the way he is, literally. I'm still convinced he's the best char in the game

LMAO

36 mins.... yeah whatever dude....

 

[JennyCage]

Reptile is perfectly fine.

Kabal doesn't need a nerf but rather a fix. According to frame data, his projectiles are supposed to have 15 start up frames, the exact same as Liu Kang's fireballs. But unlike Liu Kang, Kabal's projectiles come out on the screen on frame 0. Now this is a problem because it means even Noob Saibot cannot zone him a little bit. Something as stupid as this creates unnecessary 2-8 and 3-7 matchups. If his projectiles get fixed, his good matchups will still be 6-4 or 7-3. All it will mean is that he won't be able to "cheat" in zoning like he currently can.

To compensate for this fix, I think they should slightly reduce recovery on his groundsaw or something.

THIS! How bull is it we have a character whose projectiles can't be stuffed? Furthermore, I wish they'd make his ground saw not spawn behind him before going forward like it currently does. I'm sick of reading Kabal correctly, deep jumping/teleporting his saw only to get hit by it on the other side. Well, I guess it's not "correct reading" afterall but I feel like it should be.

Some things I'd like to see:
Cage flipkick truly punishable on block. A huge range shoryuken like that shouldn't be so safe on block. Upball is pretty much the same move and it's punishable...

A few more startup frames on KL's spin so it's not the be-all-end-all answer to pressure/frametraps.

A few more startup frames on Reptile's elbow dash, for the same reason above.

A few more startup frames on Raiden's teleport, for again the same reason.

Increase the d4/d1 hitboxes of Kitana, Mileena and Sonya a bit.

Give Stryker full armor on ex roll or most of his ex moves in general. If a kickass character like Rain can be swimming in armor, surely they can spare some for Stryker.

Give Sheeva's ex telestomp full armor. Right now it's a waste of a meter since it doesn't change the properties of the move or grant safety.

Make Baraka's ex blade charge fullscreen and/or make B3,1 safe on block.

As DanCock would say, "take the handcuffs off Sindel."

 

[Massive Kano]

JennyCage,

Best post I've seen all day. I couldn't agree more on every point.

 

[RWDY Nori]

LMAO

36 mins.... yeah whatever dude....

Do F3, 2, back forward 4 as fast as possible, then press back and block. I'm sorry this is difficult for you?

 

[Massive Kano]

Anyway, I'm a Kano man and here's what he needs:

His original knives back and either:

a) +4%-5% damage to all his longer (5+ hit) combos.

or

b) Blocked airball recovery that mimics blocked CSZ dive kick.

 

[kandehbar]

What kind of "stuggle" does kabal have. If you can rushum down or mix them up ZONE THEM
Kabal needs absolutly no buffs. He is perfect the way he his YOU need to stop complaining

Raiden traditionaly had a beast ass teleport their not gonna change that anytime soon the only thing i would say is let people be able to duck superman

Lao spin is pretty punishable arlredy just cause its good doesnt mean you should rip it a new one just dont get predictable with it

Striker really does need the armor though

Reptile is fine his dash is good be beatable just stay airborn since repile is a grounder player. According to THTB reptiles dash only connects on a grounded player.

 

[Dark_Rob]

99% of the posts in here are uneducated nonsense. You people either want the character you play to be buffed into weapons of mass destruction, or you want charcacters you lose to nerfed into oblivion rather than put any work into the matchup yourselves. You dont think about the game as a whole or how what you propose would change the game as a whole. Think before you post people, think really hard about what changes a character does and doesnt need. Dont just think about how YOU will benefit from a buff or a nerf but how the game itself will.


This post below is a good example of what Im talking about. I am not saying I either agree or disagree with it. But Il tell you this much, Trini_Bwoi thought long and hard about it before he wrote it. He analysed it from many angles, He thought about how it would affect Noobs good matches and his bad matches. He illustrated why the more common suggestion of giving his shadow projectiles less recovery would be to good.
He came up with a very simple tweak that only alters the smallest element of his gameplay, just enough to get the job done. And even suggests limiting it to just the Shadow tackles.
Again, I take no opinion on the buff itself. I merely want to show you what a well thought out post looks like. In a game like this even the smallest tweaks can have dramatic repurcussions and Trini_Bwoi clearly recognizes this.

Okay well if this topic is serious...

My main is Noob. He is primarily a zoning/keepaway character, yet he can be outzoned by a few characters and loses on trades against many others (which inhibits his zoning). Still, he has some matchups in his favour. Noob has little redeeming qualities outside of his zoning game though, so I feel like since it can be outmatched, that is a problem. So what needs buffing and nerfing to help this...

Nerf every character that can outzone/win trades against Noob? Like Kabal and Sub-Zero...I'm no Kabal expert but it looks like those IAFs are important to Kabal's game. And Sub-Zero's Iceball is already slow enough as it is. This would remedy Noob's problem but it screws up too many other characters.

Give Noob's Shadow projectiles better recovery? This would help a little when getting outzoned and a lot when losing trades. BUT, the matchups already in Noob's favor like Cage, Baraka and Jax swing even MORE in Noob's favor and balance is thrown out the window. This would not be fair to those characters.

So, here's my suggestion. On hit, the recovery frames on the Shadow Tackle are canceled. Just like, say, Kung Lao's Spin. This would certainly help where he would get outzoned or lose trades. And it doesn't boost matches already in his favor, since on block, the shadows will still be just as unsafe. Because the Tackle knocks back and down, Noob wouldn't get any weird combo or reset opportunities. HELL, this also solves another problem where occasionally, Shadow Tackles are punishable on wake-up. This cannot be applied to his Low Slide though since that leaves the opponent standing on hit.

Well that's my proposed buff to Noob and I think it's a clever way to give his zoning game an edge without throwing other things out of balance. Let's hear what you guys have to say on this.