General/Other - Leatherface The Leatherface wanted buffs thread

[CrazyFingers]

It's late and I don't feel like reading, so sorry if this was said after your post.

If you use the jump 2 tech that Smoke players do, the vortex is still legit.

It's also still there if you just delay the hit after B2. More damage than jump in punch alone too.

 

[Rude]

It's late and I don't feel like reading, so sorry if this was said after your post.

If you use the jump 2 tech that Smoke players do, the vortex is still legit.

I was talking about this with @Rip Torn and he said there was a gap after j2.

 

[Tweedy]

I was talking about this with @Rip Torn and he said there was a gap after j2.

I've tested it and there's not.

It's a universal thing on this game i'm pretty sure. A jump 2 will grant over 20 frames of advantage, easy.

 

[Rude]

I've tested it and there's not.

It's a universal thing on this game i'm pretty sure. A jump 2 will grant over 20 frames of advantage, easy.

Right. He also tested it and swore to me that there was.

Something to do with hitstun, I can't remember. You'd have to read the last couple pages in the Butcher discussion thread.

I feel like there needs to be some kind of definitive word on this. Too much back and forth and I'm just trying to see what's actually correct.

 

[Tweedy]

Right. He also tested it and swore to me that there was.

Something to do with hitstun, I can't remember. You'd have to read the last couple pages in the Butcher discussion thread.

I feel like there needs to be some kind of definitive word on this. Too much back and forth and I'm just trying to see what's actually correct.

Well then he better not be religious.

Just go into practice mode, set Butcher on record, do the jump 2, wait long enough for it to not combo, and do F2. Try to backdash or armor or anything. It doesn't work.

The flaw in his logic is that he seems to think that because jump ins are meant to link into combos, that there's a gap there if you let the frame advantage linger. That, however, just really does not seem to be the case, unless myself and all Smoke/BRC players are missing something.

Maybe when he tries it he's waiting too long in between. You don't have to wait for a mucho grande amount of time, it's pretty quick.

 

[Rude]

Well then he better not be religious.

Just go into practice mode, set Butcher on record, do the jump 2, wait long enough for it to not combo, and do F2. Try to backdash or armor or anything. It doesn't work.

The flaw in his logic is that he seems to think that because jump ins are meant to link into combos, that there's a gap there if you let the frame advantage linger. That, however, just really does not seem to be the case, unless myself and all Smoke/BRC players are missing something.

Maybe when he tries it he's waiting too long in between. You don't have to wait for a mucho grande amount of time, it's pretty quick.

You should make a video sone day and regulate the Butcher community once and for all. Lol

 

[CrazyFingers]

On the subject of butcher's vortex, did it really need to be nerfed? It only did decent-ish damage and the rest of the game butcher is hanging by a thread to get you in that loops. IN FACT on the subject of Leatherface receiving nerfs in general, were any of them necessary? One of them didn't even work properly! Killer still has Restand into F2-BS4 for an unblocksble setup that can only be backdashed or XRAYED out of. The only thing it changed was that now some characters can armor out of it. But we're talking like Sub and Reptile dashes are how fast you need it to be and that is a TIGHT window. Why does NRS gotta hit our poor lil cannibal like that?

 

[Tweedy]

On the subject of butcher's vortex, did it really need to be nerfed? It only did decent-ish damage and the rest of the game butcher is hanging by a thread to get you in that loops. IN FACT on the subject of Leatherface receiving nerfs in general, were any of them necessary? One of them didn't even work properly! Killer still has Restand into F2-BS4 for an unblocksble setup that can only be backdashed or XRAYED out of. The only thing it changed was that now some characters can armor out of it. But we're talking like Sub and Reptile dashes are how fast you need it to be and that is a TIGHT window. Why does NRS gotta hit our poor lil cannibal like that?

I think Butcher is balanced. It's just that the top tier could use some nerfs, that they're probably going to get. With that in mind Butcher probably doesn't need buffs.

 

[CrazyFingers]

I think Butcher is balanced. It's just that the top tier could use some nerfs, that they're probably going to get. With that in mind Butcher probably doesn't need buffs.

Completely agree but all im saying is the nerf to 2,2 was unneeded. It was just NRS looking at all of KP2 and thinking "If its new someone's going to complain about em" instead of just nerfing the stuff that actually needed to get nerfed. Does it kill the character as a whole? No, he still gets his vortex just with a couple of damage nerfs but come on man, was it really necessary?

 

[Rip Torn]

Well then he better not be religious.

Just go into practice mode, set Butcher on record, do the jump 2, wait long enough for it to not combo, and do F2. Try to backdash or armor or anything. It doesn't work.

The flaw in his logic is that he seems to think that because jump ins are meant to link into combos, that there's a gap there if you let the frame advantage linger. That, however, just really does not seem to be the case, unless myself and all Smoke/BRC players are missing something.

Maybe when he tries it he's waiting too long in between. You don't have to wait for a mucho grande amount of time, it's pretty quick.

@Rude The thing I tested with Butcher was the F1 vortex that you said guaranteed a low.

I said I don't know anything about smoke's vortex, just that I see people armor out all the time.

The J2 does guarantee the f2/f3 so I was definitely wrong about that. Sorry for the misinformation. The timing is a little bit more precise like @Tweedy said so I had to record it about a few times before I got the correct timing.

I still think Butcher has a lot of issues. The vortex damage is so low at this point, it's almost always better to just take the damage unless you need to make a comeback.

 

[Rude]

@Rude The thing I tested with Butcher was the F1 vortex that you said guaranteed a low.

I said I don't know anything about smoke's vortex, just that I see people armor out all the time.

The J2 does guarantee the f2/f3 so I was definitely wrong about that. Sorry for the misinformation. The timing is a little bit more precise like @Tweedy said so I had to record it about a few times before I got the correct timing.

I still think Butcher has a lot of issues. The vortex damage is so low at this point, it's almost always better to just take the damage unless you need to make a comeback.

Oh, fair enough. My bad. I mentioned the f1 thing cause I had seen other LF mains do it and after looking at the data thought it was real. You regulated me and showEd me it wasn't.

#E N L I G H T E N E D B O I Y Z

 

[Rip Torn]

Oh, fair enough. My bad. I mentioned the f1 thing cause I had seen other LF mains do it and after looking at the data thought it was real. You regulated me and showEd me it wasn't.

#E N L I G H T E N E D B O I Y Z

It's all good. I got regulated about J2 and it turns out to be a true vortex. So we all figure stuff out through discussing the nuances of the character.

From what I can tell, it's best to go straight into Ji2 after the BD4 so you can get max frame advantage to land and do the 50/50. B2 might not even be possible on some characters.

 

[TommyKing5]

Okay so I apologise in saying Butcher lost his vortex. From what you guys are saying it's still very much there. But what do you guys think he could benefit from? Or do you think he's balanced and doesn't need anything. Any insight would be great.

He does great meterless damage and all his ex armoured moves (apart from the overhead 'bop') do 20+% damage raw and are fairly quick.

Then again I don't really play Butcher that much and when I do play him it's because of the armour he gains. Very helpful in certain match-ups like Jax because he can easily break Killer/Pretty Lady's armour. That's just an example.

 

[CrazyFingers]

Well firstly, butcher has the fastest of the armored option Leatherface can get (DF4 changes in this variations and becomes 17 frames but doesnt launch) He has some VERY solid meterless damage capping out at about 40% but that's the harder stuff, easy stuff still being 36-37% for free. Sadly at this point his vortex however is pretty much useless. It does pathetic amounts of damage and is honestly more work than its worth. I tend to play him more as the footsies oriented variation. True Tic Throws in JIK and D4 with his command grab along with Artificial Tic Throws from his 2,2 and his S1 (Strings/Normals that on cancel don't tic throw but are plus so you can do the string then the tic throw because they are hopefully respecting your + frames AKA the original version of this term.) This variation is the only one with a good mid too in the form of B1. It's not too slow clocking in at 15 frames but it's not stupidly fast either. He has an easier time opening people up than the other two variations since this one has an actually useable overhead in the neutral which can be hit confirmed into BD4 which leads to at least 36% for no bar. All in all, the character is fine on his own, just needs the love that Leatherface as a character in general needs.

 

[TommyKing5]

Well firstly, butcher has the fastest of the armored option Leatherface can get (DF4 changes in this variations and becomes 17 frames but doesnt launch) He has some VERY solid meterless damage capping out at about 40% but that's the harder stuff, easy stuff still being 36-37% for free. Sadly at this point his vortex however is pretty much useless. It does pathetic amounts of damage and is honestly more work than its worth. I tend to play him more as the footsies oriented variation. True Tic Throws in JIK and D4 with his command grab along with Artificial Tic Throws from his 2,2 and his S1 (Strings/Normals that on cancel don't tic throw but are plus so you can do the string then the tic throw because they are hopefully respecting your + frames AKA the original version of this term.) This variation is the only one with a good mid too in the form of B1. It's not too slow clocking in at 15 frames but it's not stupidly fast either. He has an easier time opening people up than the other two variations since this one has an actually useable overhead in the neutral which can be hit confirmed into BD4 which leads to at least 36% for no bar. All in all, the character is fine on his own, just needs the love that Leatherface as a character in general needs.

Thanks for the information, very detailed.

To be honest if Butcher was given some tick throws off his strings he would be much more scary. I did play Butcher before the KP2 universal nerf hammer, and I thought it was his best. Since the vortex new it's now the worst. I don't know, I miss the b2 in the other variations and Butcher just gets out-zoned so easily, but then again Killer does too to some extent.

If there is a patch I think adding tick throws to the following normals/strings would help Butcher considerably: 1, 22, f1, b2, d1 & d3. I don't think he'll be OP as the standing normals all are high and most grappling characters can tick throw off of pokes.

Most of the other changes I can think of are universal changes. A slightly faster walk speed would be nice but that may be me being over zealous haha.

 

[CrazyFingers]

Thanks for the information, very detailed.

To be honest if Butcher was given some tick throws off his strings he would be much more scary. I did play Butcher before the KP2 universal nerf hammer, and I thought it was his best. Since the vortex new it's now the worst. I don't know, I miss the b2 in the other variations and Butcher just gets out-zoned so easily, but then again Killer does too to some extent.

If there is a patch I think adding tick throws to the following normals/strings would help Butcher considerably: 1, 22, f1, b2, d1 & d3. I don't think he'll be OP as the standing normals all are high and most grappling characters can tick throw off of pokes.

Most of the other changes I can think of are universal changes. A slightly faster walk speed would be nice but that may be me being over zealous haha.

Honestly, there are about 3 things i would do for this character

1. Revert the pointless nerfs he got, he didn't deserve them to begin with.
2. F1 made into an 8 frame mid. I will take a 1 frame reduction to have a damn mid on this character because he desperately needs it.
3. Add more hit advantage to butcher's command throw so the restand on it is better able to be used (i still use it in the corner but it feels a bit meh even there)

And honestly that's all that I feel the character needs, he's that close to becoming just a complete monster so i wouldn't want TOO much for him.

 

[TommyKing5]

Honestly, there are about 3 things i would do for this character

1. Revert the pointless nerfs he got, he didn't deserve them to begin with.
2. F1 made into an 8 frame mid. I will take a 1 frame reduction to have a damn mid on this character because he desperately needs it.
3. Add more hit advantage to butcher's command throw so the restand on it is better able to be used (i still use it in the corner but it feels a bit meh even there)

And honestly that's all that I feel the character needs, he's that close to becoming just a complete monster so i wouldn't want TOO much for him.

I agree. Maybe the f1 not being 8f and more 9-10. 8f would be faster than Kotal's b1, and I think that'll make him way stronger, maybe too much.

 

[ii 2shay ii]

In the event that they don't give him a solid mid, here's what he needs to be a viable character:

- a faster back dash like Kotal
- faster walk speed
- d4 12f
- b1 25f
- f2 27f (Killer and Pretty Lady)
- df4 meter burn 16f
- bd4 made a low
- BS2 hit advantage of +1 from -1

I feel without a mid, these adjustments would make leather face a pretty honest character, but with a great mid like Kotal, Jason, Mileena, etc. Leatherface easily becomes a great character, which is all us Leatherface players want.

What do you guys think?

 

[CrazyFingers]

In the event that they don't give him a solid mid, here's what he needs to be a viable character:

- a faster back dash like Kotal
- faster walk speed
- d4 11f
- b1 15f
- f2 20f (Killer and Pretty Lady)
- df4 meter burn 12f
- bd4 made a low
- BS2 hit advantage of +5 from -1

I feel without a mid, these adjustments would make leather face a pretty honest character, but with a great mid like Kotal, Jason, Mileena, etc. Leatherface easily becomes a great character, which is all us Leatherface players want.

What do you guys think?

I like it, maybe not BD4 made a low and honestly the character doesnt need THAT much. The biggest buff he could get is the high tier getting nerfed tbh...and a mid

 

[jmt]

F1 will never be a mid. You can forget about that right now.

 

[youthinkyoubadyouaintbad]

I think killer's f1 should be a 10 frame mid. Also I think bs1 should be +2 on block. I feel it should be a pressure tool. Killer leather face Is just so bad, he can be fun to play but u get blown up so easily, he needs help man.

 

[TommyKing5]

I think killer's f1 should be a 10 frame mid. Also I think bs1 should be +2 on block. I feel it should be a pressure tool. Killer leather face Is just so bad, he can be fun to play but u get blown up so easily, he needs help man.

I'm guessing this is a troll post, but if you're serious that's over stepping it lol.
I don't think f1 would ever be a mid, I would prefer the 7f high to be honest. Berserker stance 1 being +2? Never going to happen, it's already a great tool.

Leatherface isn't bad at all. Just you need to outplay your opponent and think more...

 

[Kokoko]

Reo was right, people don't want to balance the game and remove stupid stuff from MKX. Let's make another top-tier character, so players will get a chance to complain again.

If I understood everything correct, you guys want to create a 50/50 character with fast advancing mid, who always will be + on block. Seems like a great idea for Paulo.
Fun fact, you already can find characters like this in MKX. And everyone think that these characters kill MKX's balance.

Should we try to replace Alien with Leatherface? Or maybe we should think about nerfs for Alien, Mileena, Takeda which will make them like Killer?

 

[Indecisive]

Step 1 fix wiffing issues across all variations. F1 wiffs on multiple Crouch blocking characters at many different ranges. how are you suppose to play footsies when your best maybe only footsie tool wiffs consistently.

Fix Pretty lady so f12 EX up Chainsaw combos on females. This is pretty self explanatory.

Make his pokes slightly more plus on hit. Not by much but enough where you have a bit more time to see that they got hit and you can continue pressue with f12.

Adjust the hitbox on the last hit of BS2 so it always hit. Sometimes the last hit wiffs. It sucks. I don't want it to be more plus just for it to hit.

Faster armor. Maybe make his low armor faster so he doesn't get pressured to death Or so his armor isn't broken. Keep it minus like it is. But give us better armor. The low doesn't lead into much damage anyway. And pushes them back

For pretty lady also make it so f12 EX up saw actually works on characters who are crouch blocking. It wiffs randomly. And it sucks cause its the only way to make this variation safe.

I am pretty sure his stand 3 is 12 frames and a mid. Make it 10. Doesn't really break anything.

Those are my thoughts. If he gets too much he will be broken. If he gets little fixes here and there he will probably be a solid mid tier

Maybe make butchers Command grab 7 frames

 

[TommyKing5]

Agree with @RM Indecisive. He doesn't need a whole lot, and some of the suggestions that I mentioned were pretty silly, I admit. Most of the changes he could do with are relating to hurt boxes.

- Pretty Lady needs the hurt box adjustments to hit consistently on all characters, on block & hit.

- Leatherface has fast pokes, 7f d1 & 6f d3. Both are not that great on hit when compared to most of the cast. Don't even get me started on the d4. 17f startup, -17 on block and... +4 on hit. It has a funky hurbox and good range, but you might as well use his other pokes considering how unsafe & slow it is. Can't think of an instance to use it to be honest.

- Standing 3 doesn't combo on hit on neutral crouching opponents, gotta be a bug. Needs to be fixed. Maybe faster start-up as well.

So that is really all he needs. Nothing dramatically changed to make him broken. He has some of the best damage output in the game, and giving him a mid might be overkill. He has a great mid in Killer (berserker stand 1) & Butcher (b1).

Hopefully NRS does change him for the better.