Discussion The Dilemma of Armor Attacks

[Marinjuana]

The game is naturally offensive so all tools in the game, even defensive ones, will have some offensive utility.

I also should have mentioned in my first post how the lack of an armored attack resulted in much worse anti-aerial options for some characters and how some others entirely lost their primary strategy and are currently forced to play a style they were never designed to play.

Yea it sucks about some chars I know Balanced players miss their AA, at least Tremor has f1 and stuff. But I think that is just more reason why AA's or jump ins need to be fixed up a little more, as much as I miss EX rockpunch up it seems like a dumb situation to have to use bar to reliably anti air with any character. Hopefully they look to touch it up in the future some more.

And I've seen your posts about Crystalline but what are some other characters you think got screwed over by armored launcher removals? I'm not saying your wrong I'm just curious.

 

[M2Dave]

And I've seen your posts about Crystalline but what are some other characters you think got screwed over by armored launcher removals? I'm not saying your wrong I'm just curious.

Balanced Kenshi (EX rising karma), Bone Shaper Shinnok (EX low scoop), and War God Kotal Kahn (EX overhead sword) are the first characters who come to mind, but there may be many others of whom I do not know yet.

Tremor is my main character so I know that the lack of armor on EX low stone shatter not only obliterated Crystalline's defense but also its offense. Crystalline is supposed to play traditional footsies now, but Tremor's universal normal attacks are not sufficiently powerful to support this type of gameplay. Faster b+1 and d+1 help, but these two buffs are insignificant when you consider what has been lost. EX low stone shatter was one of the best moves in the previous version of the game. The move is worthless now.

 

[Gengar]

Balanced Kenshi (EX rising karma), Bone Shaper Shinnok (EX low scoop), and War God Kotal Kahn (EX overhead sword) are the first characters who come to mind, but there may be many others of whom I do not know yet.

Tremor is my main character so I know that the lack of armor on EX low stone shatter not only obliterated Crystalline's defense but also the offense. He is supposed to play like a traditional footsies character now, but the original design does not support this type of gameplay.

Why do you think that tremor cant play footsies? f1 is 6f and the full string is +2, meaning you get a free poke that must be respected as well, since d1 is now 8f. Additionally, f4 is now a good tool. its +6 and has lots of range. He also has a great d4 that keeps his own hurtbox safe. Tremor has lots of tools for footsies, and now the game is more inclined to reward and emphasize such play. Gonna have to get used to it, but I think that it can be done. Im a Metallic player and the magma blast restand into free f4 on block has been doing me hella favors.

 

[JDM]

people only wanted armored launchers gone on everyone else's characters.

holy shit this is the best post I've seen on this website haha

 

[xSamuel]

I was thinking it would be good to implement old armor launchers on Kounter and Reversal frames so people can't counter poke with launching armors and gaps can be punished.

 

[ILuvFightGames]

Still think the problem with MKX is the 50/50's

 

[ExpectFlames]

LUL are you a johnny or kenshi player?

about 1% of those 5 million care about the competitive side of nrs games rest just do single player settle down there'll probably be more patching

its not cage its age johnny age.

 

[ExpectFlames]

ToS that you agree to when you purchase the item gives NRS the right to make changes, unannounced, at any time, without your consent. The game is still playable (like objectively playable, fuck off with semantics.) Welcome to the world of digital goods.

WB Games may change, modify, suspend, or discontinue any aspect of the Game at any time. WB Games may also impose limits on certain features or restrict your access to parts or all of the Game without notice or liability. You have no interest, monetary or otherwise, in any feature or content contained in the Game.

I get trying to expand the argument, but this particular avenue of discussion has no merit. you are not entitled to anything, so the argument of 'i bought X and I want it to remain how i bought it" is void.

You can appeal to Paulo by proposing changes based on what you consider to be balance, but if its simply 'put it back to how it was cuz i paid for that' then you have no ground to stand on.

Clefairy im not saying put armored launchers back in. Im saying if this is mkxl now, just like most players took off last patch so will i for this one . The Great Exodus or hibernation starts now for the mk(scrub/pleb) until mk 11 see you then

 

[M2Dave]

Why do you think that tremor cant play footsies? f1 is 6f and the full string is +2, meaning you get a free poke that must be respected as well, since d1 is now 8f. Additionally, f4 is now a good tool. its +6 and has lots of range. He also has a great d4 that keeps his own hurtbox safe. Tremor has lots of tools for footsies, and now the game is more inclined to reward and emphasize such play. Gonna have to get used to it, but I think that it can be done. Im a Metallic player and the magma blast restand into free f4 on block has been doing me hella favors.

I never said Tremor could not play footsies. I said he was not a footsies character.

Each of Tremor's three variations has f+1,2,1, which is a dominant footsies tool yet easily exploitable by low pokes. The variation that has the most effective anti-low-poking tools is the best variation. EX low stone shatter used to cut through low pokes like a sharp knife cuts through butter, which is why Crystalline used to be Tremor's best variation, among a couple of other reasons. Aftershock's instant aerial quake was (and still is) good but not as good as the pre-patch EX low stone shatter. Metallic had nothing and still has nothing. Now Crystalline has nothing. I am sorry, but the reality is that a faster b+1 and d+1 cannot compensate for a safe, armored launching attack. Neither can the block advantage on f+4. So Aftershock is Tremor's best variation by default.

 

[Gengar]

I never said Tremor could not play footsies. I said he was not a footsies character.

Each of Tremor's three variations has f+1,2,1, which is a dominant footsies tool yet easily exploitable by low pokes. The variation that has the most effective anti-low-poking tools is the best variation. EX low stone shatter used to cut through low pokes like a sharp knife cuts through butter, which is why Crystalline used to be Tremor's best variation, among a couple of other reasons. Aftershock's instant aerial quake was (and still is) good but not as good as the pre-patch EX low stone shatter. Metallic had nothing and still has nothing. Now Crystalline has nothing. I am sorry, but the reality is that a faster b+1 and d+1 cannot compensate for a safe, armored launching attack. Neither can the block advantage on f+4. So Aftershock is Tremor's best variation by default.

Agreed, anti poking tools are very very strong. However, no one has them anymore. They didnt just take tremors, they took them all. Balance is relative to how you perform compared to the rest of the cast. Can you name a character that still can effectively blow up low poking? scorpion f2 after minus frames? maybe? It is not common place, that much is certain. Low pokes universally stop pressure, which I believe is their intended purpose. I dont think that reading a poke correctly should net you 30%+. the risk/reward is overwhelmingly skewed in your favor that way. now, since you cant blow up pokes for hella damage the risk is better for defense, if the poke is read then all they eat is 15% on armor or its blocked and back to your turn, which is a much more acceptable punishment for the crime of trying to poke while the opponent is in minus frames.


Every character now has to rely on their footsie tools, which is better design imo. Its not perfect, some characters, such as kenshi, could use some additional love to put them in line with everyone and others still could use additional toning down. but id prefer that the answers come in the form of buffing AA and giving stronger footsie tools via shifting frame data and ranges around instead of slapping armor on a launcher and calling it a day

 

[M2Dave]

Agreed, anti poking tools are very very strong. However, no one has them anymore. They didnt just take tremors, they took them all. Balance is relative to how you perform compared to the rest of the cast. Can you name a character that still can effectively blow up low poking? scorpion f2 after minus frames? maybe? It is not common place, that much is certain. Low pokes universally stop pressure, which I believe is their intended purpose. I dont think that reading a poke correctly should net you 30%+. the risk/reward is overwhelmingly skewed in your favor that way. now, since you cant blow up pokes for hella damage the risk is better for defense, if the poke is read then all they eat is 15% on armor or its blocked and back to your turn, which is a much more acceptable punishment for the crime of trying to poke while the opponent is in minus frames.


Every character now has to rely on their footsie tools, which is better design imo. Its not perfect, some characters, such as kenshi, could use some additional love to put them in line with everyone and others still could use additional toning down. but id prefer that the answers come in the form of buffing AA and giving stronger footsie tools via shifting frame data and ranges around instead of slapping armor on a launcher and calling it a day

Low pokes are managed differently by each character. Certain characters have superior pressure and mix ups than Crystalline Tremor. They can block a low poke and force their opponents to block a guaranteed normal attack that leads to offense. Certain characters have superior armor than Crystalline Tremor. They have armor that covers lots of ground and is safe on block. Certain characters have superior zoning than Crystalline Tremor. They can play at a range that is outside of their opponent's low poke range. The point is that other characters have much better anti-low-poking options than Crystalline Tremor.

Also, I do not want to hear how "balance is relative to how you perform compared to the rest of the cast" as I watch Sonic Fox's Cryomancer Sub Zero destroy players in the corner using the same mix ups that pre-patch Outlaw Erron Black used to possess. If you subscribe to such mentality, I assume you also subscribe to safe armor to counteract strong offense.

 

[Gengar]

Low pokes are managed differently by each character. Certain characters have superior pressure and mix ups than Crystalline Tremor. They can block a low poke and force their opponents to block a guaranteed normal attack that leads to offense. Certain characters have superior armor than Crystalline Tremor. They have armor that covers lots of ground and is safe on block. Certain characters have superior zoning than Crystalline Tremor. They can play at a range that is outside of their opponent's low poke range. The point is that other characters have much better anti-low-poking options than Crystalline Tremor.

Also, I do not want to hear how "balance is relative to how you perform compared to the rest of the cast" as I watch Sonic Fox's Cryomancer Sub Zero destroy players in the corner using the same mix ups that pre-patch Outlaw Erron Black used to possess. If you subscribe to such mentality, I assume you also subscribe to safe armor to counteract strong offense.

Absolutely, characters have different low pokes and pressure. And i think that is where you start making changes to things now. I like the philosophy, now it needs to be improved upon. Characters with too powerful of footsie or armor options will need adjustments, characters with weak options will need better ones. Theyve already said that they plan to continue to support the game, i dont its perfect yet but it is heading in the right direction. I also think that you may need to play more than just crystalline, i think that part of this update was to make playing more than one variant a viable option. If you think that crystalline has bad armor then you should try playing metallic and using the 2 hits of armor, that can be flash parried, on ex db1. db1 is also a mid that leaves the opponent standing and you at +frames, its a good option.

Personally, I think that any armor that advances 3/4th or more of the screen should be punishable, either by making it unsafe on block or making it a high so you can whiff punish.

Regarding balance, idk what to tell you. per the dictionary: 'offset or compare the value of (one thing) with another.' That is the textbook definition of balance. You only determine that a character is imbalanced if they are under/outperforming their peers. Kabal wasnt the best character because he shared all the same options with the whole cast, he was the best because he had options that were only available to him. thats just how balance works. Im not really sure why sonicfox was brought up, either cryo is good or is not based on his tools, sfox does not make that determination.

 

[OmGxBdON]

I don't know what the argument of crystalline tremor is. I really only found his ex low stone shatter to be more of an offensive tool then defensive. Anyways the whole point of the move was to check pokes and make people scared of your launcher so you could go in with the f121 pressure. Now that it is gone he's just gonna get poked all day and the buffed mid isn't going to help as much as u think. It's only a decent mid that now works as a realiable meaty. It's definently no alien b1. Or Cassie's elbow.

He really has little neutral now. I'm not gonna be scared of the ex low stone shatter so have fun with these a million pokes. B1 ain't gonna compensate for low stone shatter nothing will for the way this variation is designed. If u ask me make the move a hzrd knockdown or add like a caltrop affect with shattered crystals idk the move needs a little bit of reworking.

Only thing I'll give to crystalline tremor is he's safe af.

Not only can this variation get zoned out but now he can get harassed by pokes too.

 

[trufenix]

I can't believe a board run by mk9 players are calling it bad that everybody has the same armor options.

 

[DanableLector]

Except it's not because you can still use it to mix people up in more than one string. On top of that, as a Tremor - you have a freakin Flash Parry that gives any of your moves/specials 1 hit armor after you cancel the EX DB2 into run. With it you can literally get armored: wakeups/ reversals, jailing, mixups.

And while you have Flash parry - you want additional armored/safe'ish EX Low Shatter that launches? That's nonsense.

Oh and metallic in Lava skin, without EX Punch parry, also has another, two hit armored parry from EX DB1. So yeah...

Long story short: Adapt.

I totally agree with both you and Reo. I really do miss ex low Shatter though. Flash parry isn't half the reversal ex low Shatter was..which is where I miss it most. Outside of reversals, as @OmGxBdON mentioned, most tremors used it to challenge pokes. Now Tremor gets poked to death no matter what variation you're using. (Instant air quakes provide a little relief in Aftershock)

I'm trying my best to adapt, but with an 8 frame d1, slow single hitting armor in the variations I give a damn about, match ups like Jacqui Briggs for example feel unwinnable.

Just like you, Reo, and many others I hope to see adjustments on jump ins/cross ups. (Looking at you SZ)

I also would like to see certain characters who need it, get some help with anti air options.

Lastly as a Tremor main, I want to get selfish for a moment. Id like to see two hits of of armor on straight fis, and only 1 when run cancelled.

Seriously, if you haven't yet played high level Jacqui post patch please do. It's AIDs. Jacqui is definitely up there on the tier list now, without question.

 

[OmGxBdON]

I totally agree with both you and Reo. I really do miss ex low Shatter though. Flash parry isn't half the reversal ex low Shatter was..which is where I miss it most. Outside of reversals, as @OmGxBdON mentioned, most tremors used it to challenge pokes. Now Crystalline gets poked to death.

I'm trying my best to adapt, but with an 8 frame d1, slow single hitting armor in the variations I give a damn about, match ups like Jacqui Briggs for example feel unwinnable.

Just like you, Reo, and many others I hope to see adjustments on jump ins/cross ups. (Looking at you SZ)

I also would like to see certain characters who need it, get some help with anti air options.

Lastly as a Tremor main, I want to get selfish for a moment. Id like to see two hits of of armor on straight fis, and only 1 when run cancelled.

Seriously, if you haven't yet played high level Jacqui post patch please do. It's AIDs. Jacqui is definitely up there on the tier list now, without question.

If your gonna vs Jacqui play aftershock shotgun gets zoned out and so does full auto. Crystalline really needs a change to his db1. Give it new properties otherwise the variation is gonna be meh

I played e MU a lot with yung and in the end he would just braindead 50/50 plus frame me to death when he got in but now that she is more fair The MU is definently 5-5

 

[DanableLector]

If your gonna vs Jacqui play aftershock shotgun gets zoned out and so does full auto. Crystalline really needs a change to his db1. Give it new properties otherwise the variation is gonna be meh

Although she's hard to deal with in high-tech and shotgun as Tremor, I had full auto in mind when talking about the match up.

Its Very difficult to deal with.

 

[OmGxBdON]

I've been able to adjust to the no armor launchers meta very well, exdb1 in AS sends your opponent full screen where AS shines, but the crystallines armor was his game plan and now that's gone

 

[haketh]

Personally I'm fine with characters like Kenshi having a reversal they can combo off of AS LONG AS IT'S UNSAFE. Give em that option that actually makes people a bit scared when they're in or at certain ranges. My problem personally was not launching armor existing but which characters had it. The Universal removal of armor wasn't good IMO.

 

[OmGxBdON]

Although she's hard to deal with in high-tech and shotgun as Tremor, I had full auto in mind when talking about the match up.

Its Very difficult to deal with.

Shotgun and hi tech get kept out very badly. Full auto and Aftershock is heavily in AS favor during the zoning battle cuz all u need is one rolling stone and your gonna be zoning her out for the rest of the MU. Also Jacqui players get scared of the air quake so they throw out up rocket like crazy give u the option to row Rolling Stones to start your zoning and run in if u need to. I found that yung would usually try to get in instead because of her dulb offense. It's not as overwhelming a,d braindead anymore so it should be better up lose as well

 

[JDM]

Why do you guys think it's okay for tremor to do a safe armored low launching move to beat pokes? How in any way is that okay?

If you think someone is going to poke you... you poke them. Your D1 is 8f and you're +2. You trade or beat every poke in the game. What is the issue? If you KNOW they are going to poke you can poke and beat them and you're at advantage again. Or even backdash and reset to neutral. Braindead Low crystal pressure is the type of shit that made MKX a terrible game.

 

[M2Dave]

Why do you guys think it's okay for tremor to do a safe armored low launching move to beat pokes? How in any way is that okay?

When the offense is very strong, defense should be strong too unless you are a selfish rush down fool.

 

[JDM]

When the offense is very strong, defense should be strong too unless you are a selfish rush down fool.

But the offense isn't "very strong" anymore. Most characters have reactable overheads and barely +specials if any at all.

I think there's some exceptions like Cryo but still NOTHING like prepatch running characters. Not even close. And I used Predator where you actually had to block and counterpoke a Johnny before the nerfs. Nothing is near that level anymore. I really think you guys have been babied by armor moves.

You shouldn't be able to be +2 and get a full combo just because they tried to poke you. That's ridiculous.

 

[Lt. Boxy Angelman]

It should be obvious more armor isn't the answer to making this game or any game better. In a lot of ways, armored launchers were oh/low dps that lead to full combo and oki. Who likes playing around that everytime an opponent happens to have a bar, really? Honestly when I hear "give me armor back" it translates to "I want to be able to do low stone shatter or ex rising karma after - frames". Stealing turns isn't defense to me.

With armored launchers gone, now the blinders are off and you can see where this game's issues really lie and it's not pretty but still an improvement than the last version.

This sums it up perfectly.

I'm honestly thrilled with how much things have changed/are bound to change as the new meta plays itself out. Balanced Kenshi has been my dude from the very beginning, but because he was pretty much unviable competition wise, I had to look elsewhere. But across all my main changes, from Tremor to Mileena to Takeda, I always kept up on Balanced so that, in the unlikely but still possible event that he was altered to better suit what I was trying to get done with him, I would be prepared.

My Teleflurry works the way it's supposed to.
My Spirit Charge got fixed.
And I finally have my damn launching EX Overhead Slash to trade blows with whenever need be.
If all I had to give up to get that was losing the same stupid armored launcher that wasn't necessary in the first place, then I win, man.
I don't need top tier. I just need my main to work the way he's designed to work.
And now, he does. So I'm good.
I feel like the asian driver in the Family Guy NASCAR bit that caused the 43 car pileup on the track.

I turn left now. Good luck everybody else.

 

[OmGxBdON]

Why do you guys think it's okay for tremor to do a safe armored low launching move to beat pokes? How in any way is that okay?

If you think someone is going to poke you... you poke them. Your D1 is 8f and you're +2. You trade or beat every poke in the game. What is the issue? If you KNOW they are going to poke you can poke and beat them and you're at advantage again. Or even backdash and reset to neutral. Braindead Low crystal pressure is the type of shit that made MKX a terrible game.

I'm saying crystalline should have that but unless you play tremor and know how he works, u can't really talk on the issue because especially in crystalline , he has terrible neutral. I'm not saying he should have an armore launcher but something to counteract pokes. Give low shatter new properties like I previously stated. Tremors poking war is like completely different then any charactee in this game