Discussion The Dilemma of Armor Attacks

[THTB]

I never said Tremor could not play footsies. I said he was not a footsies character.

Each of Tremor's three variations has f+1,2,1, which is a dominant footsies tool yet easily exploitable by low pokes. The variation that has the most effective anti-low-poking tools is the best variation. EX low stone shatter used to cut through low pokes like a sharp knife cuts through butter, which is why Crystalline used to be Tremor's best variation, among a couple of other reasons. Aftershock's instant aerial quake was (and still is) good but not as good as the pre-patch EX low stone shatter. Metallic had nothing and still has nothing. Now Crystalline has nothing. I am sorry, but the reality is that a faster b+1 and d+1 cannot compensate for a safe, armored launching attack. Neither can the block advantage on f+4. So Aftershock is Tremor's best variation by default.

Isn't low shatter still very low negatives on block? I'm talking normal, not EX btw.

Cuz I know Aftershock still doesn't have a safe shatter, and neither does Metallic.

 

[The_Tile]

I'm saying crystalline should have that but unless you play tremor and know how he works, u can't really talk on the issue because especially in crystalline , he has terrible neutral. I'm not saying he should have an armore launcher but something to counteract pokes. Give low shatter new properties like I previously stated. Tremors poking war is like completely different then any charactee in this game

This "bad neutral" stuff is such a bill.

6f advancing high
14f advancing mid
Advancing, stupidly fast armor with flash parry
Good pokes
Slow-ish travelling projectiles to steal momentum from full screen

Pre-patch his neutral was meh. Not bad, but meh. Now though he's really good and this is just major downplay.

 

[M2Dave]

Isn't low shatter still very low negatives on block? I'm talking normal, not EX btw.

Cuz I know Aftershock still doesn't have a safe shatter, and neither does Metallic.

Safety matters, but as does defense. Because Tremor may now struggle defensively, the armor on EX shatter is very important. Crystalline's EX shatter no longer has armor and neither does Metallic's in "golden" stance (but apparently there is a glitch). "Lava" stance has two hits of armor on EX shatter, but I believe Metallic sucks unless I see otherwise. In Aftershock, EX shatter into EX ground pound is an excellent rounder closer that can neither be escaped nor broken.

 

[THTB]

Safety matters, but as does defense. Because Tremor may now struggle defensively, the armor on EX shatter is very important. Crystalline's EX shatter no longer has armor and neither does Metallic's in "golden" stance, but apparently there is a glitch. EX shatter into EX ground pound is an excellent rounder closer that can neither be escaped or broken.

No, I know. It's still a factor to note. I am agreeing with you, though, that it's a pretty big deal. I think they could have just given it the "doesn't launch anymore" treatment, but I digress. I do think Crystalline will have its uses, though.

 

[M2Dave]

No, I know. It's still a factor to note. I am agreeing with you, though, that it's a pretty big deal. I think they could have just given it the "doesn't launch anymore" treatment, but I digress. I do think Crystalline will have its uses, though.

Crystalline is abysmal and has no uses. If you know something I do not, tell me. This argument is otherwise pointless. Not only does Aftershock have superior defense now, it controls the pace of the match better with instant aerial quakes.

 

[JDM]

This "bad neutral" stuff is such a bill.

6f advancing high
14f advancing mid
Advancing, stupidly fast armor with flash parry
Good pokes
Slow-ish travelling projectiles to steal momentum from full screen

Pre-patch his neutral was meh. Not bad, but meh. Now though he's really good and this is just major downplay.

absolutely this.

 

[zabugi]

Aftet a few days of adjustments, id like to see this thread again revisited after everyone has adjusted to the new meta

 

[xSamuel]

This "bad neutral" stuff is such a bill.

6f advancing high
14f advancing mid
Advancing, stupidly fast armor with flash parry
Good pokes
Slow-ish travelling projectiles to steal momentum from full screen

Pre-patch his neutral was meh. Not bad, but meh. Now though he's really good and this is just major downplay.

The flash parry is so underrated, even now. Tremor is top tier now and there's still complaints.

 

[OmGxBdON]

Flash parry is extremely good because it can punish moves likes ermacs push and kitanas safe reversal for full combo. I'm not talking about flash parry tho, because u won't always be able to use it. Neutral is being in a state where neither character has advantage and that's usually like a little less then jump distance or around there IMO. Because crystalline lacks the long db1 that aftershock a,s metallic have, he struggles a lot more than the other two variztions. A very exploitable high. And a decent mid that is only good for meaty, is not going to fix this issue. And his pokes aren't good wtf. There long which counts for something but that still doesn't change the fact tremor in general gets poked out and now especially in crystalline. Non tremor players gotta stop with their bull shit knowledge of the character.

 

[OmGxBdON]

M2dave mentioned how mystic plays a lot like crystalline pre patch which makes a whole lot of sense. When played correctly they are both safe af (tremor more tho) and have good armor. Now tho, crystallines armor is abysmal, shout out to @General M2Dave Kappa. Mystic still has a good armor move that isn't a launcher but has unique effects that make it very good, keeping the character top tier. On crystallines case the armor move is basic af and doesn't give crystalline a whole lot. The move needs unique qualities like ermacs but hopefully not as broken. Like I said before maybe caltrop effect and make it a hzrd knockdown

 

[Ragnarök Tyr]

@General M2Dave I was watching your matches against Gun Show. How are you feeling about After Shock these days?

 

[OmGxBdON]

Just watch the set with gunshow. @General M2Dave . Really happy your using the variation. It was funny watching u mess up air quake hqhq. Btw end your combos in db1 because you get more hit advantage plus u can get more dmg. If u ever find ureself in a situation where u get a hit into a f121 juggle in the corner do db2u then f1 db1 to get more dmg and the hit advantage. Also end your combos in 123 instead of f121 cuz more dmg. Obviously situational like if u want corner carry but sometimes f121 won't connect with db1 so use 123. Also after f121 db2u mid screen do run 21 f121 db1 for max dmg. Also 123 situational example better to connect in corner. In the corner after f121 db2u do njp f4 123 db1.

Also a punish mid screen, do starter db2d run b3 db2u run 123 db1. Max dmg. If u want the most optimal tho u can do the same combo, but after b3 db2u, u do run 12d3( second hit has to whiff) 123 db1 ender. It only works if the combo ends close to the corner.

Full screen after every rolling stone frame trap with air quake because it makes your opponent respect it then u can start to ground pound and throw more Rolling Stones. Your opponent will be too scared to move so they'll just block. Also rolling stone Makes people jump so make sure u punish jumps with f1 db1, db1, f4 which gaurentees dd1 and if you catch your opponent being lazy u can run midscreen after a full screen rolling stone and punish jump with 21 AA, with air quake if u jump right after a rolling stone and your player jumps, you can punish with air quake. This is hard because u have to react to jump them punish with annoying ass input. But tremor really excels when you can punish jumps a lot so your opponent finally plays patient and just blocks rolling stone.

Lmao I turned this into a aftershock guide.

Another thing is if u do a dd1 after db1 ended full screen, and your opponent just sits there and blocks. A lot of times what they'll do is wait for the dd1 to actually go off so they can jump and avoid it. Be aware of this because u can punish with moves I said before and if your opponent decides to just play it safe and jump back or neutral jump, punish with air quake

 

[M2Dave]

@General M2Dave I was watching your matches against Gun Show. How are you feeling about After Shock these days?

I think I will use Aftershock as my main character and Mystic as my secondary character.

@OmGxBdON , thank you for the guide and analysis.

 

[Ragnarök Tyr]

I think I will use Aftershock as my main character and Mystic as my secondary character.

@OmGxBdON , thank you for the guide and analysis.

After Shock received no adjustments from what I can tell. Does it by default move to his best variation with the loss of armor on low shatter ? Or even now with hits of armor on his Magma Shatter that still ends in a restand? I'd assumed that even without the low shatter armor having flex still made Crystalline the best choice of the 3.

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

Just watch the set with gunshow. @General M2Dave . Really happy your using the variation. It was funny watching u mess up air quake hqhq. Btw end your combos in db1 because you get more hit advantage plus u can get more dmg. If u ever find ureself in a situation where u get a hit into a f121 juggle in the corner do db2u then f1 db1 to get more dmg and the hit advantage. Also end your combos in 123 instead of f121 cuz more dmg. Obviously situational like if u want corner carry but sometimes f121 won't connect with db1 so use 123. Also after f121 db2u mid screen do run 21 f121 db1 for max dmg. Also 123 situational example better to connect in corner. In the corner after f121 db2u do njp f4 123 db1.

Also a punish mid screen, do starter db2d run b3 db2u run 123 db1. Max dmg. If u want the most optimal tho u can do the same combo, but after b3 db2u, u do run 12d3( second hit has to whiff) 123 db1 ender. It only works if the combo ends close to the corner.

Full screen after every rolling stone frame trap with air quake because it makes your opponent respect it then u can start to ground pound and throw more Rolling Stones. Your opponent will be too scared to move so they'll just block. Also rolling stone Makes people jump so make sure u punish jumps with f1 db1, db1, f4 which gaurentees dd1 and if you catch your opponent being lazy u can run midscreen after a full screen rolling stone and punish jump with 21 AA, with air quake if u jump right after a rolling stone and your player jumps, you can punish with air quake. This is hard because u have to react to jump them punish with annoying ass input. But tremor really excels when you can punish jumps a lot so your opponent finally plays patient and just blocks rolling stone.

Lmao I turned this into a aftershock guide.

Another thing is if u do a dd1 after db1 ended full screen, and your opponent just sits there and blocks. A lot of times what they'll do is wait for the dd1 to actually go off so they can jump and avoid it. Be aware of this because u can punish with moves I said before and if your opponent decides to just play it safe and jump back or neutral jump, punish with air quake

Can u get on ps4 for RHS tonight?

 

[M2Dave]

After Shock received no adjustments from what I can tell. Does it by default move to his best variation with the loss of armor on low shatter ? Or even now with hits of armor on his Magma Shatter that still ends in a restand? I'd assumed that even without the low shatter armor having flex still made Crystalline the best choice of the 3.

I had initially assumed so too. Flex is still very good, but the reality is that Crystalline struggles because of the universal buffs to zoning while the old issue against low pokes is now more prevalent than ever with the armor on EX low shatter removed. Watching @OmGxBdON play and applying lots of the same strategies locally and online, I can confidently state that Aftershock is the variation that is best-suited for the current meta of the game for the following reasons.

1) Aerial quake controls the pace of the game in many match ups.

2) Instant aerial quake stops opponents from low poking.

3) EX shatter has one hit of armor and guarantees an EX ground pulse for 26% of unbreakable damage, which is especially useful at the end of rounds.

4) While Aftershock's mix ups are kind of weak, EX d,d+1 creates various interesting set ups.

 

[OmGxBdON]

Just watch the set with gunshow. @General M2Dave . Really happy your using the variation. It was funny watching u mess up air quake hqhq. Btw end your combos in db1 because you get more hit advantage plus u can get more dmg. If u ever find ureself in a situation where u get a hit into a f121 juggle in the corner do db2u then f1 db1 to get more dmg and the hit advantage. Also end your combos in 123 instead of f121 cuz more dmg. Obviously situational like if u want corner carry but sometimes f121 won't connect with db1 so use 123. Also after f121 db2u mid screen do run 21 f121 db1 for max dmg. Also 123 situational example better to connect in corner. In the corner after f121 db2u do njp f4 123 db1.

Also a punish mid screen, do starter db2d run b3 db2u run 123 db1. Max dmg. If u want the most optimal tho u can do the same combo, but b3 db2u, u do run 12d3( second hit has to whiff) 123 db1 ender. It only works if the combo ends close to the corner

ii

Can u get on ps4 for RHS tonight?

Ill try im at work rn typing this

 

[Dankster Morgan]

All I know is that on October 3rd, Sub had an anti air and that on October 4th he didn't. I think armor should activate here:
1. As a reversal
2. On wakeup
3. When your opponent leaves the ground

 

[PLAYING TO WIN]

After fleshing out this version, I am quite torn. I do feel like this is a step in the right direction for making the game better, BUT I do feel the overall system changes has made offense even stronger. To state it simply, the offensive player has very little to fear in this version of the game. In the past, risk reward was intact for most of the cast with armor launchers (ex Kenshi up karma or lao spin or shinnok scoop). Do the armor and either lose half you life or get launching damage.

Although there is multi-hitting safe armor in this version, the offensive player still has the advantage. Again, a lot less to fear.

Want to make this game amazing? remove the run button

Edit to answer OPs question. I think it was a bad call to make the change universal. It should have been decided on a character specific basis. If a character had weak offense and was more defensive in nature then the armor launcher should have stayed. If a character already had extremely strong offensive options then the armor launcher should have been removed.

The biggest issue and conundrum is that the strongest defensive armor moves in the game were also being used offensively. NRS DID nerf some offensive options, BUT they also hurt defense in that the offensive player has very little to fear.

This is MKX guys. It is a mini MVC3. The fast offensive pace is so engrained in the system that it makes any universal fix hard.

I find it more interesting that the developers of the game did identify something needed to be done. I would love to hear their opinions in a pod cast or AMA.

Regardless, as Sanford 'santhrax' Kelly stated "pick a damn top tier". Frankly all the theory fighting and 'what should be' talk is kind of worthless now.

@General M2Dave