Discussion The Dilemma of Armor Attacks

[UsedForGlue]

I do agree with Dave to a certain extent on players perspectives.

People have to be consistent with their ideals when it comes to a fighting game. They can't say that they are on board with no armoured moves launching across the board but then get excited about the prospect of something like Cryomancer.

I do like the new way in which armour is distributed, as in, if you use the right move, not only is it armoured, but it is safe on block, and if it hits it won't launch into a combo, this promotes better decision making, meter distribution and brings combo breakers into focus more than ever, but most importantly, it makes uses of the variation system.

USING THE VARIATION SYSTEM FOR ARMOUR OPTIONS:
Every character in the cast has either a safe armoured option for defending themselves in at least one variation, and if not, they have choice between two different armoured wake ups to keep the opponent on their toes, both of the options may not be safe, but you have a choice of moves instead of one single all purpose option for every scenario, and that is the armour game currently.

For example, if I am being overrun by someone, I am going to use the variation that has a safe armour option to balance the match out and maybe give me some space in an overwhelming match up.

Quan Chi - Warlock
Predator - Warrior
Sub Zero - Unbreakable
Tanya - Pryomancer
Alien - Tarkatan
Triborg - Smoke
Ermac - Mystic
Mileena - Ethereal
And so on...

There should be no one variation and no one armoured move option for all scenarios, and now the variation system must come in to play, and of course there are characters with a safe armoured option across all three variations.

The only exception to armoured moves I have is when they cover literally everything, and take the guess work out of defending yourself, and again, the exception to that is Mystic because that is the character design.

 

[AeWhole]

- Nerf the stupid jump ins
- Hold block when you're minus

Then you shouldn't have a problem with no armoured launchers.

I thought jump-ins were nerfed a little in this patch.
I can actually stop some on reaction now. Especially crossovers and silly jump-ins that are from a really close or far range.

 

[Sultani]

I do agree with Dave to a certain extent on players perspectives.

People have to be consistent with their ideals when it comes to a fighting game. They can't say that they are on board with no armoured moves launching across the board but then get excited about the prospect of something like Cryomancer.

I do like the new way in which armour is distributed, as in, if you use the right move, not only is it armoured, but it is safe on block, and if it hits it won't launch into a combo, this promotes better decision making, meter distribution and brings combo breakers into focus more than ever, but most importantly, it makes uses of the variation system.

USING THE VARIATION SYSTEM FOR ARMOUR OPTIONS:
Every character in the cast has either a safe armoured option for defending themselves in at least one variation, and if not, they have choice between two different armoured wake ups to keep the opponent on their toes, both of the options may not be safe, but you have a choice of moves instead of one single all purpose option for every scenario, and that is the armour game currently.

For example, if I am being overrun by someone, I am going to use the variation that has a safe armour option to balance the match out and maybe give me some space in an overwhelming match up.

Quan Chi - Warlock
Predator - Warrior
Sub Zero - Unbreakable
Tanya - Pryomancer
Alien - Tarkatan
Triborg - Smoke
Ermac - Mystic
Mileena - Ethereal
And so on...

There should be no one variation and no one armoured move option for all scenarios, and now the variation system must come in to play, and of course there are characters with a safe armoured option across all three variations.

The only exception to armoured moves I have is when they cover literally everything, and take the guess work out of defending yourself, and again, the exception to that is Mystic because that is the character design.

The only thing I would say to this (which is pretty much the same thing I've been repeating) is this. If the chosen wakeup options can't launch into combo anymore regardless of which one you choose, then why should they require meter to even be an option? Shouldn't an aggressor need to be on their toes anyway? Why should they not have to consider the possibility of a wakeup at all unless the grounded person is holding onto some meter?

Why is having a meter bar a required condition? In my opinion, wakeup specials that don't lead into juggles or combos should have invincible startups on their regular versions. I still haven't really seen a good explanation as to why this would be bad.

Person knocks you down.. You don't have meter. You are forced to defend because you have zero reversal options without meter. Your opponent is going to follow up with attacks and there is nothing you can do about it but block.

Person knocks you down.. You DO have meter. Now your opponent can either choose to follow up and get knocked down if you spend a bar and lose like 10 to 15%, or block it and get a full combo.

That is not an even trade off. If the person deciding on the wakeup option has a meter, the risk vs reward for using it is SO far in the aggressor's favor anyway. It is even if reversals didn't need meter, but the fact that they do makes it even worse.

Everyone has Karin wakeup options right now and it's stupid. Could you imagine the outrage if universally SFV decided to remove all invincible wakeup DPs unless they were EX?

This is what MKX has now. And people are ok with it. It's amazing.

 

[AeWhole]

They are an incredibly strong tools to give just to a few characters that actually need them, like Warlock Quan Chi witch has lost any reason to be picked.

However NO armored launcher should be safe on block, and those armors that don't launch and are safe on block should still have a way to be punished, like JC's ex shadow kick, witch can be ducked and punished afterwards.

EDIT: No command grab should have armor either.

Quan Chi Warlock is still very playable and should be picked against certain zoning match-ups and has a fantastic launching reversal still. He also has great spacing and safe moves now. Summoner will really struggle against people who aren't going to get zoned out and are able to get out of safe pressure. Warlock will laugh at you trying to get out of your safe pressure with 3 armor hits into a standing reset. It's like 3 armor ex nut punch.

 

[KHTC Takgillo]

The only thing I would say to this (which is pretty much the same thing I've been repeating) is this. If the chosen wakeup options can't launch into combo anymore regardless of which one you choose, then why should they require meter to even be an option? Shouldn't an aggressor need to be on their toes anyway? Why should they not have to consider the possibility of a wakeup at all unless the grounded person is holding onto some meter?

Why is having a meter bar a required condition? In my opinion, wakeup specials that don't lead into juggles or combos should have invincible startups on their regular versions. I still haven't really seen a good explanation as to why this would be bad.

Person knocks you down.. You don't have meter. You are forced to defend because you have zero reversal options without meter. Your opponent is going to follow up with attacks and there is nothing you can do about it but block.

Person knocks you down.. You DO have meter. Now your opponent can either choose to follow up and get knocked down if you spend a bar and lose like 10 to 15%, or block it and get a full combo.

That is not an even trade off.

Everyone has Karin wakeup options right now and it's stupid. Could you imagine the outrage if universally SFV decided to remove invincible wakeup DPs unless they were EX?

that's what just happened to MKX.

Could you imagine the outrage If everyone had invincible wakeup DP in SFV even without meter
that s what you are asking for in MKX

 

[God Confirm]

One of the primary talking points made about the game was it's lack of consistency. NRS tries to address that with how armor works by making it consistent and people complain.

This patch has done way more good than bad for the game.

people only wanted armored launchers gone on everyone else's characters.

 

[Sultani]

Could you imagine the outrage If everyone had invincible wakeup DP in SFV even without meter
that s what you are asking for in MKX

1. No one would be upset about that. In fact, characters mains that don't have one actually have asked for it.
2. No it isn't, because not everyone has a viable meterless special that could reset to neutral in MKX, so it wouldn't even apply to everyone. Just like it doesn't in SFV.

Go to SRK propose that Ryu and Ken shouldn't be invincible on reversal DP. let me know how that works out.

 

[God Confirm]

1. No one would be upset about that. In fact, characters mains that don't have one actually have asked for it.
2. No it isn't, because not everyone has a viable meterless special that could reset to neutral in MKX, so it wouldn't even apply to everyone. Just like it doesn't in SFV.

Go to SRK propose that Ryu and Ken shouldn't be invincible on reversal DP. let me know how that works out.

go on srk and dont come back

this is a completely different game

 

[KHTC Takgillo]

1. No one would be upset about that. In fact, characters mains that don't have one actually have asked for it.
2. No it isn't, because not everyone has a viable meterless special that could reset to neutral in MKX, so it wouldn't even apply to everyone. Just like it doesn't in SFV.

Go to SRK propose that Ryu and Ken shouldn't be invincible on reversal DP. let me know how that works out.

Go to SRK and say that Mika should get a DP and see what they ll do to you

 

[KHTC Takgillo]

go on srk and dont come back

this is a completely different game

The thing is that not even SF has the mechanic he wants IDK what he is on

 

[Evil_Riu48]

hahaha so real

 

[Gengar]

Armor should be used as a 'get off me button.' It should not posess that property while also giving access to 30%+ damage. I like that armor has a specific use, and launchers have a specific use, and the 2 are not entwined. Specially when the armor is not evenly distributed. where was dvorahs armored launcher? Why did alien need an armored lauching low crushing overhead?

There is still some disparity now even, i think everyone should have access to a 2 hit armor move, and kitanas new armor is a bit strong, but the overall design philosophy is better. If you want your damage now you dont get it by mashing armor on wake up and in the neutral. You get your damage by PROPERLY playing in the neutral and by having good footsies. I the game is much much better in its current state. could use a few tweaks, but i love this philosophy

 

[DR.Innuendo]

why you use b1?

because its a perfect HTB with Cyrax. 111/F13/B1 xx EXBuzzsaw - RC - B2(hits them in air) RC - 4 xx Net - ForwardDash B1 then any ender, use a bar with Airgrab for additional damage, right after B1 into low bomb thats 23% and its a reset, so you can carry it on from there into 32% or a little more, so its a guaranteed 55% - 60%

 

[B. Shazzy]

I've always disagreed with "one size fits all" ways of balancing. All it does is prevent character playstyle diversity, but it's something I know I'm in the minority on.

It is because of things like this that games like KI will always have much more diversity in character playstyle, compared to NRS games.

lul alot of ki players hate what the game has become all "for the sake of diversity" isn't compelling at all when that game is struggling also it's really silly in general

The only thing I would say to this (which is pretty much the same thing I've been repeating) is this. If the chosen wakeup options can't launch into combo anymore regardless of which one you choose, then why should they require meter to even be an option? Shouldn't an aggressor need to be on their toes anyway? Why should they not have to consider the possibility of a wakeup at all unless the grounded person is holding onto some meter?

Why is having a meter bar a required condition? In my opinion, wakeup specials that don't lead into juggles or combos should have invincible startups on their regular versions. I still haven't really seen a good explanation as to why this would be bad.

Person knocks you down.. You don't have meter. You are forced to defend because you have zero reversal options without meter. Your opponent is going to follow up with attacks and there is nothing you can do about it but block.

Person knocks you down.. You DO have meter. Now your opponent can either choose to follow up and get knocked down if you spend a bar and lose like 10 to 15%, or block it and get a full combo.

That is not an even trade off. If the person deciding on the wakeup option has a meter, the risk vs reward for using it is SO far in the aggressor's favor anyway. It is even if reversals didn't need meter, but the fact that they do makes it even worse.

Everyone has Karin wakeup options right now and it's stupid. Could you imagine the outrage if universally SFV decided to remove all invincible wakeup DPs unless they were EX?

This is what MKX has now. And people are ok with it. It's amazing.

There are only 4 characters with meterless wakeups in sfv and they don't lead to full combos. 7 characters with metered reversals that still don't lead to full combos and 11 characters that have no reversals. Backdashes aren't even invincible. People still wakeup buttons in that game.


Being able to wakeup for free isn't your god-given right let alone for a 50/50 full combo lul. Any character in mk can backdash or possibly wakeup safely, or potentially into combo in this game for spending resources. With the armor system in MK there's no other way to do it that isn't cancer than this.

 

[DR.Innuendo]

Timing is just tight. Get opponent in airborne net situation. Throw bomb under them. B1 as they touch the ground. If you get it just right I don't think you can armor. I tried it with Kitana ex throat slash like a dozen times. I'm pretty sure it's un-armorable

Spoiler: Long explanation why Cyrax needs Reset and HTB's removed.

Yeah Its really not dirty as i can defend with reluctant dismissal. It is basically a combo extender for Cyrax. he does not get good damage after 3-29 nerf, and that same nerf carries on to this patch, they Nerfed him hard on this patch as well without even pointing him out. The Universal 2 Hit Armors demolished his HTB setplay all in one universal nerf. there is always time to Break all his setups or Tech roll, but now everyone has an easy Armor option that brakes all his setups even F21 which used to break armor by its self without bomb.

Midscreen he uses the get them in net into low bomb B1 reset to extend combo damage to around 50-60% for 1 bar. which is not really that bad considering other characters like Ermac, Kitana, Mileena, Takeda. but i'm not \trying to defend it, i think resets and HTB's are bullshit no matter the circumstances. But we must realize he has shitty Neutral and bad Zoning still because they did not address his horrible mids acting like highs. the B1 low bomb after net drop, is unblockable and unarmorable consistantly.

I think any Reset or HTB should be Nerfed out without thought, no matter how bad they are in the game. Weird as it sounds id rather them make his bombs unblockable than keep HTB's and Resets.they won't though, but period remove the HTB's and Resets then buff him where he needs it after. make him have fair blockable Mixups for Bomb setups but no HTB's or Unblockable Resets should be on any character. I love Cyrax but its not fair to keep that and nerf Takeda or Tremor or Quan for doing the same thing Cyrax can still do. No body should defend bullshit liuke this because the character is shitty in other aspects. NRS can buff the other parts of his gameplay to compensate but no to the hell no on Resets and HTB's.

On the topic: One Size fits all!​

Dave and many others agree with him are saying some should retain Launching armor for a couple of reasons, 1. it helps Defense and 2. it helps Anti Air.

I have a problem with both of these reasons:​

armor no matter if its a Mid, Low or Overhead or even a high Safe or Un-Safe should NOT be Safe or Launch. I think all of them need to be Removed. They can be used other ways than for Anti Airs and Defense. and because of that its dumb to let it ride on some characters just because it suits your playstyle.

For Anti Airs you can nerf jump ins and give everyone stronger AA's Problem solved. don't give them a multi Offensive tool that hurts Zoning and Defense. that is counter-effective to Defense and the major buff it got on 10-4 new Meta change.​

For defense they can implement changes to that character that helps there defense in other ways not with armor. you don't take most of them out and let some retain them.
Why "One Size Fits All" actually is a proper method is the weaknesses that do arise on the few that got hurt by it can be adjusted other ways that are fair and only help those areas alone. for Defense they get defense and for Anti-Airing they get just that. not tools that are oppressive in many ways and can be used for offense as well.

I have always hated the argument, my character is shit and thats why its fair on mine only. this is being usede with Kitana as well and i disagree with it. if you don't want shit like that to be on Alien, Kano, Mileena or anyone on the top. Why give it to someone you consider low tier? they can be Buffed in other ways instead of giving them broken tools to compensate. be real guys. and stop defending Bullshit Tactics and toolset's.
Remember guys they said they will continue to support the game and even said they plan on patching further, so they can help Tremor ands others​

 

[Marinjuana]

Though I played Tremor with his great armor for the majority of my time with this game and people who play me will probably attest that I am an armoring fiend I think the changes(at least in my experience so far) are for the best. As much as such armored moves were defensive tools, they were also offensive ones. They offered so much reward and completely shifted momentum in many cases. And several armor attacks were so fucking good that they gave the character free offense, because the constant threat of an armor attack that does something like 30%+ with a great hitbox that may even offer great oki options was too intimidating.

I'd like to see where the meta goes but for now I'm happy with the changes to armored launchers.

 

[Nu-Skoool]

I'll stand by my previous assesment that armored launchers are poor game design. NOW easy mode mixups are also poor game design.
In MKX both exist so they even each other out... for the most part. Problem is when characters don't fit into this archetype, they're left behind. So again it's bad game design.

NRS needs to craft smarter offenses out of their characters, so defense doesn't have to be equally as hurr durr. Plain and simple. Getting down to bare bones, In MKX you can justify armored launchers because top tier offense is for the most part brainless. Too many options that cover too many scenarios, that opponents are forced to hold the L on. I believe the step in the right direction was made in the new patch. Now, this isn't to say everything was done right!

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Now that most armored launchers are gone I can see how scrubby frost bomb was and I see how much I used it. Not having frost bomb will make me a better player I think.

 

[ghostwriteous]

NRS doesnt know how to make a competitive fighting game. Everything they do is trial and error. This community would be in much better shape if they kept that in mind.

 

[thlityoursloat]

Just nerf the stupid jump ins and I'll live with no armor launchers.

 

[shura30]

armored launchers works also as offensive tools
you attack and instead of ending your turn if there's enough meter you can launch the opponent's retaliation

that stupid comeback mechanic has gone, start playing as soon as the announcer says round 1, fight so you don't have to rely on a lucky read or wakeup

 

[Sultani]

The thing is that not even SF has the mechanic he wants IDK what he is on

SFV doesn't have invincible startups on regular wakeups that don't lead to combos? Are you sure you want to go with that? Some characters have them, some don't. Like I said, it would be exactly the same as that in MKX because not every character has a reversal option that would reset to neutral from a regular special. Those characters typically already have built in tools that compensate for the lack of wakeup game.

It's not that other games don't have what I'm asking for, it's that you have no idea what I'm asking for. Your Mika example is all the evidence needed to show that.

Let me give you an example here. Kung Lao wakeup spin would not have invincible frames on wakeup because it can full combo. Raiden's wakeup superman would have invincible frames on wakeup because it can't combo.

Present me with a reason why invincible startups on wakeups in MKX would be bad. Neither you nor god confirmed guy have even tried yet. I'm thus far not even under the impression that you're opposed to it. Just that you want to argue.

I have to assume neither of you played MK9. MK9 had invincible wakeup frames. Guess who complained about it.... no one.

All I'm saying is this.. If a wakeup threat no longer includes the idea that you could get full combo'd, then why does the threat of a wakeup need to require a meter to even exist?

Can you answer that question? I'm certainly open to a real answer to that.

 

[KHTC Takgillo]

SFV doesn't have invincible startups on regular wakeups that don't lead to combos? Are you sure you want to go with that?

Present me with a reason why invincible startups on wakeups in MKX would be bad. Neither you nor god confirmed guy have even tried yet. I'm thus far not even under the impression that you're opposed to it. Just that you want to argue.

I have to assume neither of you played MK9.

Look dude all you are saying is that that function should exist in this game because it exist in other If you are knocked down you deserve a penalty in MKX the penalty is that you have to use your armor move to escape I don't see what the problem is. I read most post in this thread and those who want invincible moves want them in the neutral not only on wake up. Every problem people have cited can be resolved without making armor launcher or introduce some new untested mechanic in the game. Doing what you guys ask would create more problems than solutions

 

[IrishMantis]

I thought the kounter system was going to be moves only have armour and launch on reversal or maybe some Wake ups

 

[ismael4790]

I thought the kounter system was going to be moves only have armour and launch on reversal or maybe some Wake ups

Many of us expected that. All the hype and it finally reduces to a message in the screen...epic fail.