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The Argument Against Variation Lock

HeroesNZ

Baconlord's Billionaire Sugar Daddy
The way I see it is, after a match, you have 3 options:

* You can hit rematch to go straight back into the match.

* Loser can change character or variation.
- If loser changes variation you keep yours.
- If loser changes character you can change your variation, after which the loser picks his variation.
(*Note, the loser has to be able to see which variation the winner picks to give him more of an advantage.)

* Loser keeps everything the same and a stage is randomly selected.

This makes it just like Injustice/MK9 except in this case, the winner can counter-pick to a certain extent. The loser still gets the advantage.
Can somebody tell me what the issue is with this method? It's completely fair because the loser still gets the advantage, and it's simple to do.

What advantage could a Variation Lock possibly have over Character Lock? All it does is defeat the purpose of having Variations in the first place. I mean it's pretty much like playing Injustice without interactables, or Ultra SF without Ultras.
 
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haketh

Champion
Are Arcana Hearts 3 players really able to switch up there
Arcana(element) after winning? If so I don't see why variation pick would be any different.
Yes we are because if you couldn't switch Arcanas the counterpick situation would be worse, same with Melty Blood. Allowing Phase/Arcana switch lets you lessen the affect of getting counterpicked by character AND Arcana. No one would play Cathy in tournament if you couldn't switch Arcana after a win & your opponent switched to Tyr Arcana.
 

AK L0rdoftheFLY

I hatelove this game
Can somebody tell me what the issue is with this method? It's completely fair because the loser still gets the advantage, and it's simple to do.

What advantage could a Variation Lock possibly have over Character Lock? All it does is defeat the purpose of having Variations in the first place. I mean it's pretty much like playing Injustice without interactables, or Ultra SF without Ultras.
This is my point of view.

Logical, loser still gets last pick, we see more variations on stream.

It's a win win. I can't understand the argument here
 
Can somebody tell me what the issue is with this method? It's completely fair because the loser still gets the advantage, and it's simple to do.

What advantage could a Variation Lock possibly have over Character Lock? All it does is defeat the purpose of having Variations in the first place. I mean it's pretty much like playing Injustice without interactables, or Ultra SF without Ultras.
I think it boils down to a fundamental difference in how people view the variation system...and unfortunately both sides to the argument are largely based in conjecture until the game comes out. The question is....is this a 90 character game, or is it a 30 character game.
I believe this is a 30 character game, that each variation will likely be incomplete without the other to round it out, and that on a long enough timeline it will result in a boring game of counterpicking....but that's only conjecture. Maybe it is a 90 character game and the nightmare scenario I'm imagining is wrongheaded. At this point its impossible to know.
 

AK L0rdoftheFLY

I hatelove this game
Yes we are because if you couldn't switch Arcanas the counterpick situation would be worse, same with Melty Blood. Allowing Phase/Arcana switch lets you lessen the affect of getting counterpicked by character AND Arcana. No one would play Cathy in tournament if you couldn't switch Arcana after a win & your opponent switched to Tyr Arcana.
wtf did you just say lol. It's like a foreign language.
 

TopTierHarley

Kytinn King
Can somebody tell me what the issue is with this method? It's completely fair because the loser still gets the advantage, and it's simple to do.

What advantage could a Variation Lock possibly have over Character Lock? All it does is defeat the purpose of having Variations in the first place. I mean it's pretty much like playing Injustice without interactables, or Ultra SF without Ultras.
What you are saying is exactly what Fly is saying...and I agree. I shouldn't be locked to my variation just because my opponent loss. If they change variation and not character then it's basically the same match. If they change character I should he allowed to change my variation.
 

Scoot Magee

But I didn't want to dash
That's actually super surprising. Because everyone I've been to allow this.
Am I really remembering wrong here? In CVS2 you were able to change your groove after a win and 3s change SA? Maybe it's different here in NY?
 

F4tal

Apprentice
Can we just do a pole and vote? In my opinion, different variations could potentially change a MU for better or for worse so I think they should be locked.
 

Scoot Magee

But I didn't want to dash
Then those tournaments weren't using the most commonly accepted rules. It's all in the Evo rule list. Games with character options allow the winner to change things up- to a point. That is a fact. Now the extent of how much each change affects each game is up to interpretation, but people need to stop citing wrong examples as a basis of thier view point.
I honestly thought it was fact and not just a view point. I guess I'm wrong.
 

AK L0rdoftheFLY

I hatelove this game
Can we just do a pole and vote? In my opinion, different variations could potentially change a MU for better or for worse so I think they should be locked.
that is the whole point of variations. It doesn't change my system at all and could make the argument for my system stronger. I don't get it.

Yes we can vote but not yet. Let's vote before the first major but not in November.
 

EdFig81

Original OBS mbr/VSM/G4S
There's been quite a bit of discussion on the right ruleset for MKX. On the variation lock question - I strongly believe it is better to allow the winner to change character variation. I would propose a counter pick procedure that involves:
1. Winner stays with current character
2. Loser picks character
3. Winner picks variation
4. Loser picks variation

This is similar in spirit to rules in a number of other games with variation-esque mechanics. I'm not a well known player in the community, but have given this a fair bit of thought so I hope it's considered. Here's the rationale:

Overarching principles:
1. The goal of any competitive rule set is to promote an environment where the best player wins.
2. As long as there are matchups that are not 5-5, there can be games when character selection rather than player skill determines the winner.

Explicit goal in determining the variation lock rule
Get as close as possible to a tournament where all games feature 5-5 matchups. This promotes the principles above and also increases hype (I think we can all agree that some of the least interesting matches to watch are 7-3 counter pick matches like when Forever King counter picks 16 Bit's Catwoman with Aquaman).

Why allowing variation switches promotes this goal
Simply put, it's harder to counterpick your opponent with a 7-3 matchup when you don't know who they are picking. Having the loser pick variation after the winner ensures that the loser doesn't end up getting counter-counterpicked and ends up playing a disadvantageous matchup anyway (provided the loser has a little bit of foresight and considers the winners variation choices before he selects character).

I believe the traditional counter picking procedure is flawed
Some may argue that different variations might as well be entirely different characters in some cases, so we should use standard counterpicking rules (winner changes nothing) as a result. However, that assumes that standard rules are optimal, which they aren't. They still result in terribly boring lopsided matchups like the one I mentioned above.

The traditional procedure is good in situations like this: Lex player goes to a tournament and meets a Sinestro round 1. Without counter picking, he's all but lost at the character select screen. By counter picking he increases the chance that player skill determines the winner rather than character choice. I'd argue counter picking is a bad thing in a situation likes this: Catwoman player plays a Batgirl player round one and wins the first game because the Catwoman player is better. Batgirl player counterpicks aquaman and takes the rest of the set, despite being a worse player. In this case, player skill is not determining the winner - character choice is.

If we can preserve the first thing and reduce the second one, I think that's a good outcome, as unintuitive as this suggestion may feel. The standard procedure (winner locks everything) is all we can do in MK9 and injustice because there are no variations, but here we have another choice and we should take advantage of it, increase the number of 5-5 matchups, and make it so the better player wins more consistently.

If folks disagree, let me know why. Preferably, address which of the principles you think is wrong. Or tell me why this rule doesn't promote those principles. If you can't do either, you probably don't have a legitimate objection.
I gotta read this thread but I agree however , I don't want to just say your right no offense we don't know imo how much the different variations may effect your main. However I support this as now but say let's hold off till we see how this rocks at tournaments but let's not wait until it's to late to change shit. We need to be on top of this imo
 

EMPEROR PRYCE

WAR SEASON "THE WEAK EXPOSED!"
This is my point of view.

Logical, loser still gets last pick, we see more variations on stream.

It's a win win. I can't understand the argument here
Because this isn't about what thr stream wants to see. It's about laying out the rules so the game can be played at the highest level of competition in a swift and fair manner. If variation is going to change the way a character is played completely, they essentially become a new character. If that's the case why even have a character lock?

Although, tbh I read your idea a bit more thoroughly and thought about it. Seems like a nice idea, it just scares me about winner counterpicking. It becomes a downhill battle for the losers throughout the entire set, rather than individual games. If the variation is going to change character archetypes, im not a fan of unlocked variations to the winner.
 

Scoot Magee

But I didn't want to dash
Then those tournaments weren't using the most commonly accepted rules. It's all in the Evo rule list. Games with character options allow the winner to change things up- to a point. That is a fact. Now the extent of how much each change affects each game is up to interpretation, but people need to stop citing wrong examples as a basis of thier view point.
This is on the SRK EVO rules page

The player who won the last Game is required to keep the same characters, game modes, and order of characters for the next Game.

You can find the rule I pasted above in this link under the playing the match section.
http://shoryuken.com/evo-player-guide/evo-tournament-rules/#characters

Are these the same tournament rules you've read?
 

HeroesNZ

Baconlord's Billionaire Sugar Daddy
Because this isn't about what thr stream wants to see. It's about laying out the rules so the game can be played at the highest level of competition in a swift and fair manner. If variation is going to change the way a character is played completely, they essentially become a new character. If that's the case why even have a character lock?

Although, tbh I read your idea a bit more thoroughly and thought about it. Seems like a nice idea, it just scares me about winner counterpicking. It becomes a downhill battle for the losers throughout the entire set, rather than individual games. If the variation is going to change character archetypes, im not a fan of unlocked variations to the winner.
In Character Lock, the Winner only changes Variations if the Loser changes character.

A) The Loser isn't going to change character after every match.
B) The Loser still has the advantage because they get to counter-pick the Winner's variation. How is this any different to what we already do?
 

THTB

Arez | Booya | Riu48 - Rest Easy, Friends
Am I really remembering wrong here? In CVS2 you were able to change your groove after a win and 3s change SA? Maybe it's different here in NY?
I know little about CVS2 tourney rules, but I do know 3S and USFIV allow super/ultra switches for the winner should they choose to change characters.
 
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This is on the SRK EVO rules page

The player who won the last Game is required to keep the same characters, game modes, and order of characters for the next Game.

You can find the rule I pasted above in this link under the playing the match section.
http://shoryuken.com/evo-player-guide/evo-tournament-rules/#characters

Are these the same tournament rules you've read?
http://evo.shoryuken.com/additional-rules/

Winner may change ultra (only if opponent changes characters), but has to pick ultra first after loser picks character.
 

Scoot Magee

But I didn't want to dash
I know little about CVS2 tourney rules, but I do know 3S and USFIV allow super/ultra switches for the winner should they choose to change characters.
Is there another set of EVO rules listed besides the one I linked to?

Playing the Match
  • Once sides and characters have been chosen, the players should begin the first Game in the Match.
  • The following rules go into effect once a Game ends
    • The Match is over when either player wins the required number of games (Two out of three games for most tournaments)
    • Once a player has won the required number of games, the winner of the Match should report the result to the Judge.
    • If there are still Games to be played, the player who lost the Game has the option of switching sides (1p vs 2p) for the next Game.
    • The player who won the game does not have the option of switching sides. He must stay on the same side if the loser does not want to switch.
    • The player who won the last Game is required to keep the same characters, game modes, and order of characters for the next Game.
    • The player who lost the last Game is allowed to choose whatever characters, game modes, or character order he desires.
 

haketh

Champion
I know little about CVS2 tourney rules, but I do know 3S and USFIV allow super/ultra switches for the winner should they choose to change characters.
No CVS2 groove change was allowed because you couldn't in arcade if you won. 3S you could change super, didn't come up much outside of Ryu & like Dudley because characters had one clear best choice.
 

Scoot Magee

But I didn't want to dash
No CVS2 groove change was allowed because you couldn't in arcade if you won. 3S you could change super, didn't come up much outside of Ryu & like Dudley because characters had one clear best choice.
This is probably why I thought you couldn't change SA in 3s. I guess I was wrong after all but at least I was right about CVS2 lol.