The Argument Against Variation Lock

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

If variation is not locked it should have a blind select option imo.

If not then winner just picks first IMO.

 

[SuppaSapien3]

Full disclamer: I am a complete noob at this, but since when did the entertainment of the viewer and what is considered hype factor in to a professional tournament standard? That sounds kinda audacious and backwards for your reasons as why the current model doesn't work. This post 7.8/10

 

[haketh]

Full disclamer: I am a complete noob at this, but since when did the entertainment of the viewer and what is considered hype factor in to a professional tournament standard? That sounds kinda audacious and backwards for your reasons as why the current model doesn't work. This post 7.8/10

2009

 

[cyke_out]

No CVS2 groove change was allowed because you couldn't in arcade if you won. 3S you could change super, didn't come up much outside of Ryu & like Dudley because characters had one clear best choice.

And that one clear best choice possibility is what I am worried about. If the winner is locked into one single variation, then he is going to pick the best option suited to his prefered playstyle and that gives him the best chance of beating any possible character.

If Kano's A style has the majority of even or slightly advantaged match ups as opposed to his B or C options which has skewed 3-7's but also 7-3's, then it's a safer bet to use variation A for practically every set. This means the chances of seeing the other variations are going to be rare.

 

[The PantyChrist]

I am in favor of character and variation lock.
1) I don't want to be playing footsies with my opponent at character select screen and I don't want to attend tournaments that take forever because people are doing this in between every match.

2) if you won with a set of tools you should defend with the same tools, if we are doing ft3's you will have plenty of opportunity to change your character if you Lose a game.

3) it's traditional and simple. The easier the rule set the easier it is to enforce it

 

[haketh]

If Kano's A style has the majority of even or slightly advantaged match ups as opposed to his B or C options which has skewed 3-7's but also 7-3's, then it's a safer bet to use variation A for practically every set. This means the chances of seeing the other variations are going to be rare.

That's never gonna not happen in anything competitive so learn to deal with it or always have the crushing dissapointment. Even in games like Arcana or Melty which are pretty mad balanced you still have clear best choices, it's just how things work. People whoa re serious about this with their money on the line are gonna pick what gives them the best chance, of course their will be specialist but they're a rarity.

 

[Pterodactyl]

redacted.

 

[ChaosTheory]

This helps no one. I'm all for absolute chaos but the reality is, we need a tournement standard.

Please everyone stop posting stuff like this.

This includes you @ChaosTheory (the best online subzero)

You've known me since MKO. Too long to think I'll let there be a peaceful conversation without conflict in here.

But seriously.... I don't know what you mean by absolute chaos. It's not absolute chaos when you sit down before match 1. What changes?

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

You've known me since MKO. Too long to think I'll let there be a peaceful conversation without conflict in here.

But seriously.... I don't know what you mean by absolute chaos. It's not absolute chaos when you sit down before match 1. What changes?

So are you saying the winner can always counterpick whenever after every match?

Hmmmmmmmm

 

[coolwhip]

Serious question for those who want variation lock:

Do you really want to have a game with 90 characters?

No, and the game will not have 90 characters. It will have 30 characters with 3 variations. The above is a false dilemma.

 

[EMPEROR PRYCE]

I feel we should stay traditional. It'll force smarter play as well as match up knowledge and true character/singular variation knowledge. With your ruleset, It'll be tougher on players who don't wanna learn 90 different movesets to be competent at the game. Also more things will be discovered over a longer time because less things will be seen at once. this will keep the game fresh.

The idea you guys are presenting isn't bad by any means and if it turns out to be that way i wont have any problems. I'm just saying, is it worth trying to fix what isn't broken?

 

[HeroesNZ]

If variation is not locked it should have a blind select option imo.

The thing with Blind Select in Character Lock though is that it gives the Loser less of an advantage. The point of Character Lock is that the Loser ultimately gets to counter-pick the Winner's variation. If the Winner Blind Selects his Variation then it'll go like this:

-> Loser counter-picks by choosing a different character
--> Winner counter-picks by choosing a Variation
---> Loser chooses a Variation

In this case, the Winner ultimately gets the final counter-pick. It may not be as great a counter-pick as choosing a different character but it's still an advantage. The only way to make it fairer would be to make the Loser Blind-Select their character too (lessens the chance of the Winner successfully counter-picking), except it would still mean that the Loser has less of a chance to counter-pick the Winner with their Variation.

Simply having no Blind Select is the optimal method imo, because it means that the Loser gets the final counter-pick, as it should be.

-> Loser counter-picks by choosing a different character
--> Winner counter-picks (to a lesser extent) by choosing a Variation
---> Loser counter-picks by choosing a Variation

Seems fairer to me.

 

[Slips]

I did some research and it seemed like in Arcana Heart, the most similar thing we've seen in regards to variations in MKX, and it was ok for the winner to change their Arcana (Variation).

I thought something like this might be too complicated for this community, but if we are to establish these rules and people are able to understand them, I do think it would be most interesting, fun, and beneficial to allow the winner to change their variation. Especially if loser changes character.

 

[haketh]

I did some research and it seemed like in Arcana Heart, the most similar thing we've seen in regards to variations in MKX, that it was ok for the winner to change their Arcana (Variation).

I thought something like this might be too complicated for this community, but if we are to establish these rules and people are able to understand them, I do think it would be most interesting, fun, and beneficial to allow the winner to change their variation. Especially if loser changes character.

Yeah honestly people are overblowing the complication issue, MKX characters only have three *Possibly 4 if the no specials variation happens* possible variations meanwhile Arcana has 23 characters & 23 different variants & complication nor time has ever been an issue.

 

[HeroesNZ]

With your ruleset, It'll be tougher on players who don't wanna learn 90 different movesets to be competent at the game.

Except they'll have to learn 90 different movesets anyway because they're going to have to fight different variations in either method.
------------
I'm curious to know how Variation Lock would work anyway. Would it be:
-> Loser is allowed to change character and Variation
--> Winner stays with Variation

If this is the case, we'd be seeing many more 8-2 MUs because the Loser can go HAM on counter-picking while the Winner is probably thinking about who they're gonna counter-pick with after they get bopped.

It's like the Loser being able to pick another character and a stage in Injustice. I mean, just imagine Zod vs Lex on Watchtower.

 

[ChaosTheory]

So are you saying the winner can always counterpick whenever after every match?

Hmmmmmmmm

Maybe my definition of counterpicking is off. Because I don't see how letting both players choose whichever character they want allows one player (winner or loser) to have a counterpicking advantage over the other. Again, it's no different than when you pick your characters before match 1.

Are you talking about two guys sitting on the select screen and one guy refuses to select a character until the opponent does first or something?

If you are, and worrying about somebody being a douche like that is actually a realistic concern... you have hidden select for that very reason.

Ultimately, I find it to tarnish the spirit of the competition. Either both players can pick whoever they want, or both players should be locked to their character. There shouldn't be a blatant advantage given to one player over another for any reason.

 

[cyke_out]

Maybe my definition of counterpicking is off. Because I don't see how letting both players choose whichever character they want allows one player (winner or loser) to have a counterpicking advantage over the other. Again, it's no different than when you pick your characters before match 1.

Are you talking about two guys sitting on the select screen and one guy refuses to select a character until the opponent does first or something?

If you are, and worrying about somebody being a douche like that is actually a realistic concern... you have hidden select for that very reason.

Ultimately, I find it to tarnish the spirit of the competition. Either both players can pick whoever they want, or both players should be locked to their character. There shouldn't be a blatant advantage given to one player over another for any reason.

The idea behind allowing the loser to counter-pick is to prevent major blow ups. It's the same reason why the ball is given over to the team who just scored on in football. The loser should get a slight advantage in order to maintain some level of parity, but not receive an over-whelming advantage.

Forcing the winner to stick with variation could be an over-whelming advantage and skew the match in favor of the loser.

 

[Eji1700]

I know little about CVS2 tourney rules, but I do know 3S and USFIV allow super/ultra switches for the winner should they choose to change characters.

Yeah doesn't it just suck when the Chun or Yun chooses a different super art to counter pick you.....

I'm fucking awful at 3s, so maybe i missed something that happens at higher levels, but aren't the top tiers top tiers in part because they just pick one SA and call it a day(amongst other things)?

As for "variation is always good"

I play bug zapper raiden and beat your commando grip kano(5-5).
You counter pick dvorah who has a 6-4 vs zapper(ironically)
I counter pick portal 2 raiden who's got 7-3's vs all of dvorah's styles and win.
The real outcome here is that dvorah is just not viable, period, because one variation eliminates her from the game.

Is this a likely example? No. Is something like this possible? Yes. NRS is far from perfect at balance, and i'm all for the ruleset that gets the largest viable cast in without being insane, whichever that is. It's just as likely that we wind up with another 3s where almost no one bothers switching.

That said, it's just a counterpoint example, not a full fledged argument. I honestly think at this point it could go either way, and there's basically no positive discussion left to be had. We know what other games do, we know what this game does to the best of our current knowledge. I don't think we know enough as is to really make a decision because how heavily variations can change a matchup is going to matter, a lot. We do know that it's not just specials that change, but normals/strings as well(possibly entire strings). Until we know exactly how much this will matter(which depends heavily on how they balance the core moveset and tools of the characters) there's really no point bouncing more hypothetical situations around while others throw a fit.

In short, NRS should release more info. Not so we can make a ruleset, but because obviously people need something else to fucking talk about. Maybe they'll just announce kabal and we can argue about something new.

 

[d3v]

And stop acting like you actually know whether MKX is or isn't different. Have you played the game? Do you know how it works? Do you know just how much variations impact things? Have you seen the full roster and every variation? Have you played different match-ups with different variations and determined just how significant variations are? No, you haven't.

The problem is that this isn't exactly something that's totally new to fighting games. Other games have had similar things. For example Arcana Heart.

I did some research and it seemed like in Arcana Heart, the most similar thing we've seen in regards to variations in MKX, and it was ok for the winner to change their Arcana (Variation).

I thought something like this might be too complicated for this community, but if we are to establish these rules and people are able to understand them, I do think it would be most interesting, fun, and beneficial to allow the winner to change their variation. Especially if loser changes character.

This is what I've been saying the whole time.

Changing arcanas in AH not only alter characters attack and defense, but they give them a whole new set of special moves as well.

@haketh already gave an excellent example of this.

Allowing Phase/Arcana switch lets you lessen the affect of getting counterpicked by character AND Arcana. No one would play Cathy in tournament if you couldn't switch Arcana after a win & your opponent switched to Tyr Arcana.

Another example would be moon phases in Melty Blood. In addition to changing characters attacks, these phases will also sometimes change their movement options as well, which is more than what MKX does.

The point is, any game that has character variations will, no matter how simple of complex those variations are, always change the match up depending on the variation. More importantly, we (the communities in the FGC that play these games) have been okay with allowing these variations all this time.

I understand that alot of folks here only came in to competitive fighting games with MK9, but alot of the issues people seem to complain about, stuff like counter-picking, having certain variations better than others, etc. are things that have been in other games before and, are actually accepted.

Counter picking? This was the norm back in the 90s with games like SSF2 Turbo and SFA2.

Variations affecting matchups or certain variations being better than others, old hat.

 

[Swindle]

So are you saying the winner can always counterpick whenever after every match?

Hmmmmmmmm

No character lock, no variation lock. But winner picks character/variation first. Simpletons.

 

[Dust]

I'm in favor of character lock variation select now. Blind is fine, but I favor winner picks variation first after the opponent pick there fighter.

 

[Prinz]

Character + variation lock for the winner is the best and simplest option.

 

[callMEcrazy]

Once the demo is out(fingers crossed) I bet we will have a much better understanding on Variation select. Until then I think is healthy to assume variation lock. AH3 players may actually provide incite for us though.

I personally am not on any side of this debate. I just want whats best for the competitive scene and find this forum a good way to discuss are possible paths. If variation is not locked I would be excited to see this preemptive anti-counter-picking in action if it doesn't favor the winner too much.

Even with no variation lock the rules still favor the loser. The loser can select any character and any variation while the winner can only pick one of the variations from his original character.

 

[Jack Burton]

The problem is that this isn't exactly something that's totally new to fighting games. Other games have had similar things. For example Arcana Heart.

This is what I've been saying the whole time.

Changing arcanas in AH not only alter characters attack and defense, but they give them a whole new set of special moves as well.

@haketh already gave an excellent example of this.


Another example would be moon phases in Melty Blood. In addition to changing characters attacks, these phases will also sometimes change their movement options as well, which is more than what MKX does.

The point is, any game that has character variations will, no matter how simple of complex those variations are, always change the match up depending on the variation. More importantly, we (the communities in the FGC that play these games) have been okay with allowing these variations all this time.

I understand that alot of folks here only came in to competitive fighting games with MK9, but alot of the issues people seem to complain about, stuff like counter-picking, having certain variations better than others, etc. are things that have been in other games before and, are actually accepted.

Counter picking? This was the norm back in the 90s with games like SSF2 Turbo and SFA2.

Variations affecting matchups or certain variations being better than others, old hat.

Thank you so much for this post.

 

[FCP/EMP SCAR]

I did some research and it seemed like in Arcana Heart, the most similar thing we've seen in regards to variations in MKX, and it was ok for the winner to change their Arcana (Variation).

I thought something like this might be too complicated for this community, but if we are to establish these rules and people are able to understand them, I do think it would be most interesting, fun, and beneficial to allow the winner to change their variation. Especially if loser changes character.

Agreed, it doesn't seem right to allow the loser to be able to switch characters & variations, while restricting the winner to just staying with the same variation, so I'm all in favor of winner variation switch..

But in all honesty, no one here should have an issue with this, this is what fighting games are about, once u choose ur main, your job is to learn the ins & outs of your character and variations, his or her strengths and weakness within the character itself and whoever the opposing character u will be facing, counterpicking and crossing ur fingers in the hope ur opponent lacks knowledge of ur half-ass counter character is just lazy & cowardly.

So to everyone I say this...hit the lab, know ur shit, and know ur character, know ur strengths, ur weakness, and know ins and outs of the characters ur main loses too, even if u have to put a couple of other characters in ur pocket, If u lose terribly in ur first match with ur main then I'm all for going with a better option, but those of u who sit and wait to counter pick before your first match is even played...you are scum lol