The Argument Against Variation Lock

[cyke_out]

great example of tradition triumphing over logic, if all the pics are hidden there cant be any informed counter picking

That does not hold up in practice. Players gets well known for using a particular character. If you sit across from Theo, you know he is going to pick aquaman. Wong is picking Rufus. Aris is selecting Draganov...... If I'm a lesser known players, I have the picking advantge in the early rounds of the tournament since my preferred character is unknown. If I manage to make it to the later rounds, I'll have been scouted and seen playing certain characters, and unless I have surprise pocket alts, there is very little surprises. It will be almost impossible to avoid any informed counter-picking.

 

[LEGI0N47]

I have not read through all of the responses but I'll say this.

the rules need to be simple and easy to follow. From my tourney experience's I've seen all kinds of people not following easy to understand rules. An example, and probably the most common, would be 50/50 stage select which is so easy to follow and understand. But I've also witnessed character switching out of line before also. Now I don't know if they are just that ignorant, have no idea, or just don't care. But most often people seem to have no idea, and those that do know don't care if it can potentially give them a better situation or really just don't care. Personally I don't understand these attitudes but that's what I've seen. This usually happens in pool play though. Not what viewers see at home which is usually known players or top 16 and up matches where 9/10 times they know the rules and we're all watching anyway and will catch slip ups. So it needs to be very simple.

Just saw Mayo's thread and I like it so far. Time will tell what we get though.

 

[juicepouch]

This thread is a lot of hot air...

Good luck deciding on a ruleset guys

 

[callMEcrazy]

Am I tripping, cause I think I have read that somewhere else lol!?

Where ? This is the only Mk site I visit and I don't think I've written that in any other thread.

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

It's a joke.. That's the first thing. Lol.

yea your post was so funny...

And.. Nothing I did made you leave RM. So.. That's invalid.

You would like to think you now why I left. I'm not getting into that but to assume any of you the real reason is funny to me.

My comment was directed towards some things people said in here that go against things from past tourney rules. Like how this stuff encourages counter picking. And them not understanding why locks should even be valid.

You came in this thread being argumentative and talking about how stupid these threads are. get the fuck out. This thread was prefaced with theory and valid points. you ignored all of it and shat all over this thread with your lack of explanation and condescension.

But apparently you take things to heart? I didn't disrespect anyone. I didn't say anything out of line. Stop being a baby, Dick.

again hilarious joke. you totally disrespected the thread. to think you didn't kills my brain cells.

My thing with this game is.. Some characters get Armor on their variations. Some et zoning, some get reduced damage on chip. It almost seems to be that every character has a rushdown and a zoning variation. If you don't lock the variation with the character after a win, it's pointless.

Say.. You're Kano. And he's got his variation with the knife tosses. And you win against Raiden's storm lord. But then the loser switches to Displaces to get around the zoning. You should be able to pick Commando with Kano after a win? So every time raiden teleports, you've got a shot at parrying? In my mind.. That defeats the purpose of any lock at all.

Oh now you decide to explain and contribute. Finally you added some type of value to this thread. keep posting like this and I'll leave you alone all together. This is assuming one character has three variations that are dominant in two or three very different areas of the game. We won't know but I guess if this ends up being true (we don't know yet). My hope is that yes Kano might be able to do this but if his dominant side is zoning, commando variation only slightly compensates for the teleport and not hard counters it. we will wait and see.

Sorry for stating my opinion, Fly. Lol. But that's what this site is for. For people to state opinions. And if I don't agree with someone's opinion, or of they don't agree with mine. That's just the way the story goes. That's life.

Apology not accepted because you obviously didn't mean it. Your right though you did state your opinion and that is what this site is for. Problem was...you just discredited the entire thread and didn't offer any post of value. Mods might call that a "useless post".

 

[Brutal Chimney]

That does not hold up in practice. Players gets well known for using a particular character. If you sit across from Theo, you know he is going to pick aquaman. Wong is picking Rufus. Aris is selecting Draganov...... If I'm a lesser known players, I have the picking advantge in the early rounds of the tournament since my preferred character is unknown. If I manage to make it to the later rounds, I'll have been scouted and seen playing certain characters, and unless I have surprise pocket alts, there is very little surprises. It will be almost impossible to avoid any informed counter-picking.

if you're a lesser know player you also are likely to have less experience and probably skill. you're trading a guaranteed counter pick the entire match, for a probable one at the beginning and if you have a bunch of pocket characters not even that.

 

[Rip Torn]

I'm for variation and character being locked for the winner. Here are some reasons.

1. Loser should be allowed to effectively counter-pick. We all know that fighting games are not 100% balanced, and because of that, somebody is always at some sort of advantage (unless it's a mirror match). The loser should be allowed to select either a new character or new variation without fear that his counter-pick won't be countered with another disadvantageous match-up.

2. Simplicity. If you let both players choose variations (even blind) after each game, you will have a long character selection process between each game where both players are debating which variation the other will choose, which will influence their choice.

3. It promotes character/variation variety. If you know that you can effectively counter-pick without the opponent having some sort of answer for your counter, you are more likely to do it. If you know that the opponent could counter your pick, you are less likely to change and more likely to 'stick to your guns'.

This is basically the safest, least complicated rule set to start with. Starting with all kinds of crazy rules can cause issues, as it did with Injustice.

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

I am suggesting combining character lock with non character lock

The winner can only change variation IF the loser changes character all together. So if the loser keeps his same character and counters with variation, the winner cannot change his variation and its a valid counter pick.

In the instance the loser does change character, the winner can change variation but he still has to pick first. The loser still gets to counter pick. Whats the problem with this?

I do not want to play a game where we have 90 different characters and the tournament rules are built like they are 90 different characters. I can only pray that it is balanced where there are 3 slightly different variations of each character to keep it fresh and fun.

 

[Dust]

Boon has said that each variation are almost like 3 separate characters in several interviews. This is what made me assume winner variation locked.

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

Boon has said that each variation are almost like 3 separate characters in several interviews. This is what made me assume winner variation locked.

yea I don't really think boon knows though. I get the vibe he is just marketing and getting it hype by over exaggerating.

If they really are 3 completely different characters then it would HAVE to be character lock variation lock. I just will end up getting pissed. To me that is ludicrous and will be poison to the potential it has for tournaments.


A variation switch rule would be sooooo hype and interesing to see at a high level. sigh...

 

[WakeUp DP]

This thread is a lot of hot air...

Good luck deciding on a ruleset guys

Infraction for "useless post" pls!

 

[BRUTALITY]

So, no actual explanation? Got it.

i didnt wanna waste my time explaining it to you because its painstakingly obvious. i thought you were trolling. i still think youre trolling.

 

[cyke_out]

A variation switch rule would be sooooo hype and interesing to see at a high level. sigh...

This.

I want to see increases variety during tournaments, and no variation lock allows more variations to be used. Otherwise, players will pick the variation that is basically thier main and the other two styles won't be touched unless they lose.

 

[chemist4hire]

Sure, nominally, the amount of counterpicks is greater in the second scenario. But I'd argue that's irrelevant and the thing that matters is the *severity*of counterpicks. In my opinion, the reason counterpicks can be bad is that counter picking your opponent with a 7-3 match up creates a situation where character selection rather than player skill can potentially determine the winner. If variation switches require two decisions instead of one but result in less imbalanced matchups I'd characterize that as a good thing.

Knowing enough about your opponent and his tendencies to counterpick him at the character select screen is part of the player skill set. People who win by counterpicking do so because they know matchups and that is a big part of player skill. You dismiss this and come across as having a superficial understanding of what counterpicking entails. Its not just picking a character that gives your opponent trouble, is also knowing the in and outs of that charcter and his match ups so that you can prepare and defend against the eventual counterpick.

 

[Rip Torn]

yea I don't really think boon knows though. I get the vibe he is just marketing and getting it hype by over exaggerating.

If they really are 3 completely different characters then it would HAVE to be character lock variation lock. I just will end up getting pissed. To me that is ludicrous and will be poison to the potential it has for tournaments.

A variation switch rule would be sooooo hype and interesing to see at a high level. sigh...

Do we really need Boon to tell us that they will be different? From what I've seen, they are 3 completely different characters. Each one controls a different space on the screen, effectively making them completely different from a match-up perspective.

 

[Dust]

Are Arcana Hearts 3 players really able to switch up there
Arcana(element) after winning? If so I don't see why variation pick would be any different.

 

[Dust]

If they really are 3 completely different characters then it would HAVE to be character lock variation lock. I just will end up getting pissed. To me that is ludicrous and will be poison to the potential it has for tournaments.
.

I don't know about poison. I'm pretty sure regardless what we decide as a community on variation rulings they will be a hit amongst us unless there is a clearly better variant for each character.

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

Do we really need Boon to tell us that they will be different? From what I've seen, they are 3 completely different characters. Each one controls a different space on the screen, effectively making them completely different from a match-up perspective.

Its all speculation at this point. The play we have seen is atrocious. Its only special and xray demos. Its the meta and the overall strategy of a character that we need to see befor we know if there are 90 characters or 30

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

I don't know about poison. I'm pretty sure regardless what we decide as a community on variation rulings they will be a hit amongst us unless there is a clearly better variant for each character.

thats what is most likely and what I am afraid of

 

[Rip Torn]

Its all speculation at this point. Its the meta and the overall strategy of a character that we need to see befor we know if there are 90 characters or 30

I think we have seen enough to make this decision. We've seen the tools, maybe from afar... but people in the community have had their hands on the game. Raiden alone with his teleport changes the meta completely. If one character can change that much, we can assume that others will too. If, for some odd reason, only a few characters change that much, then your rules favor using certain characters (i.e. the one's with the most wildly different variations).

What if you want to play many different characters rather than learning one character and all their variations? Your rules favor the latter.

 

[Vilén]

I'm in the camp that we should actually have a few tournaments or something before we decide to lock in rules on variations. Whatever it may be.

Since, y'know, it's new.

 

[Dust]

Once the demo is out(fingers crossed) I bet we will have a much better understanding on Variation select. Until then I think is healthy to assume variation lock. AH3 players may actually provide incite for us though.

I personally am not on any side of this debate. I just want whats best for the competitive scene and find this forum a good way to discuss are possible paths. If variation is not locked I would be excited to see this preemptive anti-counter-picking in action if it doesn't favor the winner too much.

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

I think we have seen enough to make this decision. We've seen the tools, maybe from afar... but people in the community have had their hands on the game. Raiden alone with his teleport changes the meta completely. If one character can change that much, we can assume that others will too. If, for some odd reason, only a few characters change that much, then your rules favor using certain characters (i.e. the one's with the most wildly different variations).

What if you want to play many different characters rather than learning one character and all their variations? Your rules favor the latter.

so 90 characters then...god that sucks

 

[cyke_out]

Yep good luck ever seeing half of those 90 characters ever on stream.

 

[Under_The_Mayo]

I support character lock.

I don´t support character lock.