Breakthrough - Sub-Zero SZ 4Oct patch thread.

[Lokheit]

been labbing the fuck out of cryo corner damage
@Lokheit
His corner meterless damage is fucking higher than prepatch
Metered damage is still lower but whatever, theres basically never any reason to use bar in the corner anymore unless you're hitconfirming f33.

Im hitting 37% meterless off b12 haha

With or without starting JIP?

I'm getting to 37 from B2 with 3 jabs, but capping at 36 (37 with JIP) from strings into iceball. Current best corner BnB: B2,B2, up to 3 pokes, 111xxPPxxHammer EDIT: Experimenting with B2,B2,242 followups... but it could be too tight to realistically use during a match (and so far I'm not getting better damage than with the other combo, at least following with 11xxPP, I'm not sure any other link is possible).

It's not really "fucking higher" more or less close to what it used to do though. At least it's alright, meter damage is a different story, I'm even considering starting to use meter on freeze resets instead of EX Hammer, before the patch I wouldn't have sacrificed the damage.

 

[crosshair271]

With or without starting JIP?

I'm getting to 37 from B2 with 3 jabs, but capping at 36 (37 with JIP) from strings into iceball. Current best corner BnB: B2,B2, up to 3 pokes, 111xxPPxxHammer EDIT: Experimenting with B2,B2,242 followups... but it could be too tight to realistically use during a match.

It's not really "fucking higher" more or less close to what it used to do though. At least it's alright, meter damage is a different story, I'm even considering starting to use meter on freeze resets instead of EX Hammer, before the patch I wouldn't have sacrificed the damage.

I wish mid combo EX throws weren't techable so we can get a restand for a bar.

 

[Lokheit]

I wish mid combo EX throws weren't techable so we can get a restand for a bar.

Command grabs are techable?

That was what I was talking about at least, command into EX Freeze into JIP B12 (or F12 but B12 already can give you the overhead).

 

[Gilbagz]

With or without starting JIP?

I'm getting to 37 from B2 with 3 jabs, but capping at 36 (37 with JIP) from strings into iceball. Current best corner BnB: B2,B2, up to 3 pokes, 111xxPPxxHammer EDIT: Experimenting with B2,B2,242 followups... but it could be too tight to realistically use during a match (and so far I'm not getting better damage than with the other combo, at least following with 11xxPP, I'm not sure any other link is possible).

It's not really "fucking higher" more or less close to what it used to do though. At least it's alright, meter damage is a different story, I'm even considering starting to use meter on freeze resets instead of EX Hammer, before the patch I wouldn't have sacrificed the damage.

nah no jump in. Its only like 1% higher than prepatch, but celebrating regardless lol. Damage nerf, was half a damage buff.

off b2 im getting 39% no bar
b2 b2 f122 111 pp hammer
I dont really like the double b2 in neutral though cos the lower launch height on crouch

the general combo route is now
b12 ice ball ji2 b2 b2 f122 111 pp hammer 37%

the 111 is sorta tight but its very doable with practice
theres no real point using bar on ex hammer anymore, it literally only adds like 3%

Also off of f4, f33 and b33. It is better to convert into ex ice ball. Ex ice ball ji2 b2 does more damage than ex hammer, and serves the same purpose as a launcher.
The general routes now let us get 4 high damage components
so any mix of b2, f122, ex hammer, 111 ender
in general b2 b2 f122 111 pp hammer is the optimal ender
Just sorta hard execution wise

 

[Lokheit]

nah no jump in. Its only like 1% higher than prepatch, but celebrating regardless lol. Damage nerf, was half a damage buff.

off b2 im getting 39% no bar
b2 b2 f122 111 pp hammer
I dont really like the double b2 in neutral though cos the lower launch height on crouch

the general combo route is now
b12 ice ball ji2 b2 b2 f122 111 pp hammer 37%

the 111 is sorta tight but its very doable with practice
theres no real point using bar on ex hammer anymore, it literally only adds like 3%

Also off of f4, f33 and b33. It is better to convert into ex ice ball. Ex ice ball ji2 b2 does more damage than ex hammer, and serves the same purpose as a launcher.
The general routes now let us get 4 high damage components
so any mix of b2, f122, ex hammer, 111 ender
in general b2 b2 f122 111 pp hammer is the optimal ender
Just sorta hard execution wise

Will try the F122 after double B2 tomorrow thanks, looks tight on paper for sure!

In neutral it would probably be better to use the multipokes as they help dealing with the crouching launch bugs by elevating the hitbox.

 

[crosshair271]

Command grabs are techable?

That was what I was talking about at least, command into EX Freeze into JIP B12 (or F12 but B12 already can give you the overhead).

No I meant universal throws. When you throw mid combo you can burn a bar for a restand but it's techable making it almost useless.

It could lead to some nice pressure for characters who don't have a restand string.

 

[Gilbagz]

Will try the F122 after double B2 tomorrow thanks, looks tight on paper for sure!

In neutral it would probably be better to use the multipokes as they help dealing with the crouching launch bugs by elevating the hitbox.

EDIT: That combo seems to be the first instance since last summer's 111 buff where b12 better damage scaling takes place to get better damage than 111 without spending meter lol.

nah the 111 and b12 starter do the exact same damage at 37%

off neutral b2. i'm just doing
B2 f122 111 grab hammer 33%
Safe and super consistent

 

[Lokheit]

nah the 111 and b12 starter do the exact same damage at 37%

off neutral b2. i'm just doing
B2 f122 111 grab hammer 33%
Safe and super consistent

Yeah I removed the edit while you were replying lol, calculated it wrong. Worth mentioning that the screen number lies (it rounds to the closer number) and decimals actually count (so sometimes a combo doing 1% more damage could be just 0.08% for example, this can be proved using known damage quantities as some combos "doing the same damage" won't kill while other would) but in this case 111 still has the upper hand in terms of decimal damage I was wrong with my first calculation.

 

[Jeffrey Wolf]

I wonder if we should start adding the slide enders then do meaty NJP/NJK/FJP, F4xxAura/Klone/PP since almost all armor is gone. It's a theory that I got from watching Buffalo. This way we get some chip, setup and pressure. Other characters do it, especially ones that use weapons for the NJP bounce like Erron and Cassie. I know the push back animations make the NJ attacks pseudo safe instead of negative like they're suppose to but the JIP's for sure are plus on block.

This is exactly what I've been doing post patch and it works like a charm. In fact, I've been having to retrain myself to not put the Aura on, so I can do the F4~Aura frame trap after, instead of my previous F12 frame trap pressure.

@Braindead, for this reason I wouldn't recommend ending in F12 and then putting on Aura, unless you're looking to setup a max damage mixup I suppose (B2 or B3~EN Aura), as otherwise getting the frame advantage on wake up is too good. I've never had an trouble getting the NJP after Slide, but if the opponent is somehow getting out of it, you could just wait, then F4.

 

[Gilbagz]

Yeah I removed the edit while you were replying lol, calculated it wrong. Worth mentioning that the screen number lies (it rounds to the closer number) and decimals actually count (so sometimes a combo doing 1% more damage could be just 0.08% for example, this can be proved using known damage quantities as some combos "doing the same damage" won't kill while other would) but in this case 111 still has the upper hand in terms of decimal damage I was wrong with my first calculation.

yeah true. most of the combos should be up in terms of decimal damage.
Regardless, its just 1%. Just cool to look at on paper lol.

 

[RM Ree]

I'm finding the b2, b2, f122, 111 xx pp, hammer consistent. So many swords, it's beautiful. And if you burn the bar on ex ice blast, jip, f12 ender you get the same 39% and the +27f vortex. This is absurd.

Not to mention Cryomancer has legitimate option selects revolving around b33 and polar puncture. These work for pressure AND armor breaking up to 2 hits of armor.

@Red Raptor
@Lokheit
@Gilbagz

 

[Jeffrey Wolf]

That's awesome, but man do I hate option selects, lol.

 

[RM Ree]

That's awesome, but man do I hate option selects, lol.

I kind of agree. But really only because this is what gets kharacters nerfed. He's got some real dirt right now.

 

[Gilbagz]

yeah hoping they remove that option select
doesnt need it at all

Remove that and the character is fine
Tick throw is still sorta overrated imo
Its a telegraphed mix up that is full combo punishable on a read. Not a means of consistent play. b33 burst to cover yourself and condition is nice though. f12 is horribly unsafe now, poke ticks are still kinda meh. Its purely a counter poke bait, something which other characters like lao and goro get for basically no risk in this nerfed armour meta. ticking off a poke already doesnt make sense, because if you're ticking, you're reading they're going to block. So raw cmd grab is the better option. You're just trying to give yourself a 'safety net'. safety net in quotes because if they eat the poke you eat a full combo. Risk reward is just super out of your favour.

Cmd grab is going to shine in neutral situations and just overall stagger pressure.

Also you can option select against the cmd grab on the defensive side. You can fuzzy with a neutral duck to blow it up for a full combo. 3-4f window to do it. (tested this by recording footage and counting the frame gap between the two). Once people learn this, the cmd grab tick is much much weaker. Fuzzying wont the end all be all obviously, since it opens other stagger options, but it produces a huge reward for the defender by doing so.

I've been doing the same to erron black since vanilla. the 211 cmd grab mix up with erron is smoke and mirrors, but yet i still see people eating it constantly. People need to put more time into the lab to learn defensive techniques.

Tl;dr
- learn the defensive fuzzy guys. Cmd grab ticks are super overrated if you perfect your fuzzy.
- remove the b33 os, its dumb.

 

[Lokheit]

Looking at the REO vs Sonic match I realized that I should be trying a middle poke in the midscreen F122, B12, (D1), B12 combo, I was having a hard time with this one and didn't realize the poke would elevate the hitbox and still get him in range for the second B12.

The one with the NJP is still good if you want to switch sides (you either didn't jump over after a freeze or you want multiple side switchs to leave the fight midscreen because the opponent could benefit more from fighting in the corner).

Also, it seems like PP being a special (which means building meter with it and again with the hammer) in combination of spending meter for damage not being so good anymore, leaves you a lot of butter available, so many X-Ray enders in that series...

 

[Braindead]

Command grab option selects have been there since day 1, and when they removed all OSs, Paulo left the grab OS there on purpose. He said so on stream. All grabs can be OSed to come out only on block.

 

[Braindead]

However, since it can be ticked off B3, and that could lead into a full string... yeah lol.

 

[Gilbagz]

Looking at the REO vs Sonic match I realized that I should be trying a middle poke in the midscreen F122, B12, (D1), B12 combo, I was having a hard time with this one and didn't realize the poke would elevate the hitbox and still get him in range for the second B12.

The one with the NJP is still good if you want to switch sides (you either didn't jump over after a freeze or you want multiple side switchs to leave the fight midscreen because the opponent could benefit more from fighting in the corner).

Also, it seems like PP being a special (which means building meter with it and again with the hammer) in combination of spending meter for damage not being so good anymore, leaves you a lot of butter available, so many X-Ray enders in that series...

oh cool, might look into that
I was just practicing the b2 cross unders off f122
getting consistent at controlling it now
its his highest damage mid screen for sure.
I've typed up a list of all his bnbs if you want it @Lokheit.
Midscreen damage is comparable to pre patch if you do the b2 cross unders.

Also his corner damage is basically the same for one bar.
The metered loop im using is
opener ex hammer b2 b2 111 pp hammer
Gives 43% off a f122 starter, and 41% off b12.
Probs not worth it though considering the meterless b12 does 37% anyway.
Leaves open the option of ex ice ball restand though for resets.

 

[Lokheit]

2 B2s after F122 or EX Hammer? Gotta try this! The speed increase of F1 and being able to PP from 111 is increasing the window of possible juggles for sure.

Btw I was trying right now and you can connect F122 after a jump in kick in the corner, way more rewarding than pre-patch. I think the initial damage asumptions were wrong considering the new juggles. Execution did go up but I'm having a lot of fun this week.

 

[Lokheit]

Well... the new "after grab and hammer" distance seems to be about perfect (in fact I'm not sure if it was possible before) for the "12 Iceball on males" tech/glitch (as in, it will connect if the last frames of "2" hit while he's waking up).

I'm experimenting too with following with dash and either baits or crossovers... even Air Hammer might have an use against certain wakeups on these crossups now that we at least have a 7 frames poke.

 

[RM Ree]

Looking at the REO vs Sonic match I realized that I should be trying a middle poke in the midscreen F122, B12, (D1), B12 combo, I was having a hard time with this one and didn't realize the poke would elevate the hitbox and still get him in range for the second B12.

The one with the NJP is still good if you want to switch sides (you either didn't jump over after a freeze or you want multiple side switchs to leave the fight midscreen because the opponent could benefit more from fighting in the corner).

Also, it seems like PP being a special (which means building meter with it and again with the hammer) in combination of spending meter for damage not being so good anymore, leaves you a lot of butter available, so many X-Ray enders in that series...

I've messed around with (starter) xx ex hammer, NJP (late), whiff slide, f122, b12 xx pp xx hammer. Probably totally not worth the bar but it looks cool.

 

[Gilbagz]

2 B2s after F122 or EX Hammer? Gotta try this! The speed increase of F1 and being able to PP from 111 is increasing the window of possible juggles for sure.

Btw I was trying right now and you can connect F122 after a jump in kick in the corner, way more rewarding than pre-patch. I think the initial damage asumptions were wrong considering the new juggles. Execution did go up but I'm having a lot of fun this week.

Yeah, the new combo routes basically mitigate the damage nerf. You have an email or something. PM me it. I'll send you my doco. Cbb doing the formatting on TYM, in the middle of my thesis. Already wasted too much time labbing this crap today when i was meant to be working on it lol.

 

[Lokheit]

Probably totally not worth the bar but it looks cool.

Never understimate the power of swag

Yeah, the new combo routes basically mitigate the damage nerf. You have an email or something. PM me it. I'll send you my doco. Cbb doing the formatting on TYM, in the middle of my thesis. Already wasted too much time labbing this crap today when i was meant to be working on it lol.

Sure thing, and I know that feeling haha.

EDIT: Ok this is going to sound dumb but where is the PM button here? xD

 

[Tanno]

Never understimate the power of swag



Sure thing, and I know that feeling haha.

EDIT: Ok this is going to sound dumb but where is the PM button here? xD

Upper-right next to your nick. It's the letter-like icon. The PM is this forum's "conversation".

 

[Lokheit]

Btw, I was checking the old frame data to see stealth changes and it seems some stuff isn't "changed" even if it did.

For example I know 123 didn't jail into EX Bomb before, but the shown frame data in the movelist is the exact same and now it can jail.

I think it's related to multiple changes they mentioned where moves would have different recoveries and block advantage on hit or block so probably that's why it's not documented.