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Support for MK1 Supposedly Cancelled

Do you think this is the end of MK1?


  • Total voters
    64
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Vulgar

Kombatant
There was absolutely nothing hard about hitting someone with Quan Chi and summoning the Bat into HTBs, or just doing portal into armored 50/50 after getting them into trance. Same for Cyber Sub - you end a combo with a splat divekick and get a bomb for FREE in the corner while also getting the b3 string started, for free, that would armor break. Same for Takeda's EX kunais into midscreen normal overhead. Konjurer Alien could be a bit trickier to set up, but still, nothing terribly "execution heavy". I will agree that the MKX Cyrax and Kitana combos could be obnoxious, but I still take those over what MK11 had. A middle term would be welcome though, for sure.
One thing I've learned is that if it means shitting on MK1, people really will say anything.

Even if it's a gross misrepresentation of reality.

It's one thing to not like a game, but to make it the only thing you talk about or you make it your whole personality - whew - couldn't be me.

But no yeah I cosign this post.
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
There was absolutely nothing hard about hitting someone with Quan Chi and summoning the Bat into HTBs, or just doing portal into armored 50/50 after getting them into trance. Same for Cyber Sub - you end a combo with a splat divekick and get a bomb for FREE in the corner while also getting the b3 string started, for free, that would armor break. Same for Takeda's EX kunais into midscreen normal overhead. Konjurer Alien could be a bit trickier to set up, but still, nothing terribly "execution heavy". I will agree that the MKX Cyrax and Kitana combos could be obnoxious, but I still take those over what MK11 had. A middle term would be welcome though, for sure.
Lord puggles at the launch of the game was obnoxious as hell, funny enough ppl though that was fun at the beginning until shit start to hit the fan.

Remember Ninjutsu scorpion with a B2 that did litle to no damage in combos? i remember of tackling this issue and have ppl like Pig comming up and saying i'm crazy lmao.
 

Felipe_Gewehr

Twinktile
One thing I've learned is that if it means shitting on MK1, people really will say anything.

Even if it's a gross misrepresentation of reality.

It's one thing to not like a game, but to make it the only thing you talk about or you make it your whole personality - whew - couldn't be me.

But no yeah I cosign this post.
I understand not preferring Mk1 to MKX. They are both have some key mechanics that differ wildly, but the particular argument that one is "less creative" than the other, or that one's HTBs were more complex to setup/execute is difficult to agree with.

Its okay to enjoy MKX and think it is your favorite. And it is okay to dislike MK1's meta and mechanics (God knows I dislike various bullshit from this game lolol). But at their core essence they (and MK9 - and even MK11 to some extent) are surprisingly similar, so we should be cautious when saying this or that did not happen in this or that game.
 

SaltShaker

In Zoning We Trust
It's honestly wild to me that people want long combos. Creative Combos are fun, but long combos are superfulous and tedious to do and complete vibe killers to recieve for most players. Long combos are casual kryptonite.

Also, the MKX comparison is so fucking disingenuous. MKX had HTBs but they required setup and decent execution to not be stuffed by a poke or just blown up by armor. MK1 is completely different, it's easy as fuck to just end any combo in Kameo. Shit like Lao Low hat is braindead shit. Even if it's not the strongest tool in the game, it's too strong for how easy it is to do. That's MK1 in a nutshell for me. Everything is too easy to do for how good it is. It's too hard to tell when I'm fighting a good player.

Anyways, That's a tangent, my bad.
This might be the most disagree post I've seen you make lol. KOF I play often and has some longgg multi-bar cancel combos that do massive damage that happen every match. Tekken has some long wall to wall combos. MvC is next level combos. Etc. MK1 is pretty regular or even lesser than some games. Way back in MK9 you could age six years waiting for Cyrax to finish his combos and resets. Etc. Long combos are pretty common.

MKX was the "no need for neutral game", the easiest of all of the NRS games to play. There was no "execution" required to Demo Sonya someone, or Alien them, or Tanya Rekka, or many of the simplistic streamlined setplay the game lived by. You just "did" the "stuff" and were always in the favorable position when you did it unless you were playing some low tier. It wasn't just the run that added no neutral (mid hitting buttons that stretched halfway across the screen into safe pressure or combos, 1/3 screen unreactable 50/50 launchers like Kung Jin, etc) but the entire play itself was around landing a hit, carry all the way to the corner, apply oki/reset/mix, land it, win round. That was the entire game. MK1 is much, muchhh deeper than MKX. All the other NRS games are deeper than MKX and require more than the 1 braincell it took to play MKX.

And MK (or Injustice) have never been difficult games, only the strategy can be different. Kabal in MK9 or Ermac in MK1 etc are high execution characters, but they don't have too many in their games. Their games tend to be easier to play and the better players execute the strategies better, punish oB or gaps consistently, make reads on common strategies, AA consistently, etc, so you're able to tell whether someone is actually good or if someone just "knows the Havik flowchart lolz GGs bro I'm amazing". That's not too different from any game where the better you get at it and/or understanding it the easier it is to see the gaps in player skills even in the most easy games like GGST. The KOF series I think is the only true active game that gatekeeps players out in modern FGs due to a high skill ceiling for gameplay plus incredibly high execution, but that's also why it's hard to add new players to it.
 

ImpostorOak

Goro is a Pokémon
Here's a thought experiment for you guys.

Why do so many people prefer MKX if it's objectively worse than MK1 like you all claim? Notable FG players like Maximillion Dood claim MKX as his favorite and dismiss MK1 for the most part.

If you're forced to go outside of NRS' top players and fan boys, you see a lot of criticism about MK1 and MK in general. Why?

A lot of what you say, @SaltShaker just isn't an opinion I share or something I see many people outside of this site share.

Also, I didn't say MK1 had extremely long combos. I said I can't believe someone would want long combos. It just sounds like someone who secretly wants a single player game or like a lab monster request. Slightly shorter than MK1 would be ideal for me, but I'm currently loving SF6s combo system.

The FGC outside of the NRS community already is biased against MK but the prevailing opinion is that this one stands out as even worse than usual. And many of these complaints aren't just about it's content, they don't like it's gameplay.

MKX gets praised over MK9 these days. Over Inj and Inj2. Yall are maybe not on the pulse of Fighting Games, ya know? Yall ask for shit, NRS listens, and the games get worse, ya know?

Lol. Anyways, bye yall.
 

SaltShaker

In Zoning We Trust
Here's a thought experiment for you guys.

Why do so many people prefer MKX if it's objectively worse than MK1 like you all claim? Notable FG players like Maximillion Dood claim MKX as his favorite and dismiss MK1 for the most part.

If you're forced to go outside of NRS' top players and fan boys, you see a lot of criticism about MK1 and MK in general. Why?

A lot of what you say, @SaltShaker just isn't an opinion I share or something I see many people outside of this site share.

Also, I didn't say MK1 had extremely long combos. I said I can't believe someone would want long combos. It just sounds like someone who secretly wants a single player game or like a lab monster request. Slightly shorter than MK1 would be ideal for me, but I'm currently loving SF6s combo system.

The FGC outside of the NRS community already is biased against MK but the prevailing opinion is that this one stands out as even worse than usual. And many of these complaints aren't just about it's content, they don't like it's gameplay.

MKX gets praised over MK9 these days. Over Inj and Inj2. Yall are maybe not on the pulse of Fighting Games, ya know? Yall ask for shit, NRS listens, and the games get worse, ya know?

Lol. Anyways, bye yall.
I actually see more MK legacy players say they want "MK9 style back", and I see non-MK legacy players say more often they want "MKX back" like a Max type of guy. I'll give you one guess why that is lol. I talk to a ton of people outside of the NRS community, and the most consistent complaint I see is the kameos, things that no longer exist in the meta, the lack of modes/training while waiting/rooms, and such. Some people do bash the gameplay, but most of the times they're talking about things that have changed forever ago.

And I didn't say you said MK1 had long combos either lol. I said their combo length is fairly standard for FGs, as many games have either longer combos (KOF, MvC, etc) or shorter combos (SF6, GGST, etc) and even referenced some of these games as examples. I'm not sure how you got that from what I said.

As far as the rest, I talk to a few past/present pro players in non-NRS games regularly. I just chopped it up with a few literally this past weekend in person lol. A lot of it is not knowing how much the meta has changed to make the judgment to know if they'd like the new version or not. Which maybe they will maybe they won't, but some people legitimately don't even know. I hung out with Punk (SF6) a few months back and asked him if he'd play more than the couple events he entered in the past at that time and he said the game was fun and he likes MK but he can't spend more time in it and there's no money and he doesn't understand why there's no money "so it's whatever". I've got countless examples of things like that. We only remember the negatives when it's what we know the most.
 

Vulgar

Kombatant
Here's a thought experiment for you guys.

Why do so many people prefer MKX if it's objectively worse than MK1 like you all claim? Notable FG players like Maximillion Dood claim MKX as his favorite and dismiss MK1 for the most part.

If you're forced to go outside of NRS' top players and fan boys, you see a lot of criticism about MK1 and MK in general. Why?

A lot of what you say, @SaltShaker just isn't an opinion I share or something I see many people outside of this site share.

Also, I didn't say MK1 had extremely long combos. I said I can't believe someone would want long combos. It just sounds like someone who secretly wants a single player game or like a lab monster request. Slightly shorter than MK1 would be ideal for me, but I'm currently loving SF6s combo system.

The FGC outside of the NRS community already is biased against MK but the prevailing opinion is that this one stands out as even worse than usual. And many of these complaints aren't just about it's content, they don't like it's gameplay.

MKX gets praised over MK9 these days. Over Inj and Inj2. Yall are maybe not on the pulse of Fighting Games, ya know? Yall ask for shit, NRS listens, and the games get worse, ya know?

Lol. Anyways, bye yall.

You had to have lived it. @SaltShaker and I were there when the community here and on other social media platforms, even anecdotally in sweaty hotel room suites, people shit on MKX bad.

"Run up 50/50."

"No neutral."

"Tanya carries."

"Alien carries."

"The ice clone doesn't function properly."

"Look at that knee."

"Can we get this fixed, NRS? Please?"

"Okay so the ice clone does work properly."

So on and so on. I was there at CEO when a bunch of players threw handfuls of fake, "In Paulo We Trust" 50/50 bills into the crowd.

Top players and pot monsters alike constantly complained about too much set play, overpowered DLC, etc. Basically the same stuff they complain about now.
 
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SaltShaker

In Zoning We Trust
You had to have lived it. @SaltShaker and I were there when the community here and on other social media platforms, even anecdotally in sweaty hotel room suites, people shit on MKX bad.

"Run up 50/50."

"No neutral."

"Tanya carries."

"Alien carries."

"The ice clone doesn't function properly."
This was the game that Paulo was starting to get death threats because people were so upset about the meta lol. No one got any respect because everyone was "carried". I remember it all.

So on and so on. I was there at CEO when a bunch of players threw handfuls of fake, "In Paulo We Trust" 50/50 bills into the crowd.
HOW did I forget about this???? Hahahaha!!! That was legendary. Crowd counting the Tanya teleports out loud still takes the #1 spot though LOL! How quickly we forget.

Top players and pot monsters alike constantly complained about too much set play, overpowered DLC, etc. Basically the same stuff they complain about now.
That's the funniest part of the MKX to me. No game got the complaints that MKX got when it was active. Inj1 got killed for walk speed, MK11 got killed for being slow and limited, but man MKX had people about to burn down houses. You were crucified if you were to dare defend MKX. Now it's become "actually MKX was awesome" years later.
 

Vulgar

Kombatant
This was the game that Paulo was starting to get death threats because people were so upset about the meta lol. No one got any respect because everyone was "carried". I remember it all.



HOW did I forget about this???? Hahahaha!!! That was legendary. Crowd counting the Tanya teleports out loud still takes the #1 spot though LOL! How quickly we forget.



That's the funniest part of the MKX to me. No game got the complaints that MKX got when it was active. Inj1 got killed for walk speed, MK11 got killed for being slow and limited, but man MKX had people about to burn down houses. You were crucified if you were to dare defend MKX. Now it's become "actually MKX was awesome" years later.

Oh yeah, everyone was "carried." Sonic got this one most of all!
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
I understand not preferring Mk1 to MKX. They are both have some key mechanics that differ wildly, but the particular argument that one is "less creative" than the other, or that one's HTBs were more complex to setup/execute is difficult to agree with.

Its okay to enjoy MKX and think it is your favorite. And it is okay to dislike MK1's meta and mechanics (God knows I dislike various bullshit from this game lolol). But at their core essence they (and MK9 - and even MK11 to some extent) are surprisingly similar, so we should be cautious when saying this or that did not happen in this or that game.
i honestly think none of this current games are similar to mk9

MK9 was a game you would mainly poke with jabs, d4s and d3s
because in that game, d3s on crouch hit were +7 on hit, and used to give a massive advantage to start off an offense, meanwhile on standing hit it was +3 only, while d4 on standing hit were +12 on hit, and +4 on crouch hit.
the thing is, the game also had stance jail, if you were caught in a blockstring standing, your character would get locked in standing until the blockstring ends, same for crouching, so there were moves you had to be crouching to avoid.
The worst poke in the game were d1s which as also the fasted buttons in the game at 6 frames, but were only +1 regardless the stance and where always -13 if blocked.

In sum, you had specific reasons to hit your opponent with a d3 if they're crouching and hit them with d4s while they were standing, so you could always get a massive advantage on your offense to start chimming in your strings and continue to be your turn, which it was either to be blocked properly, or armored out if they had the advantage, which would lead to specific situations such as jump to cross up counters, d1 counters, armor, throws and what else.

Sadly this used to be where MK branched from the rest and when they universalized this, they essentially killed one aspect of NRS games that added depth to the offence, in that era while this was as diverse, notice how ppl didn't relied as havily as they do into d1s and what not as they do now, that's because some these attacks were bad if blocked and even at -3 it would mean the world between someone who has a 12f jab and someone who has a 9f mid.

The vid bellow it's a top match i faced a cyrax, and you will hardly see me doing d1s at all if any, i used to poke more with jabs and strings, and when i sensed they would duck, i would go for d3s, if i happen to hit them standing, then switching to d4 was a good idea to increase the advantage.
You will see often the cyrax player trying to either jump out or do something else, but rarely pokes back with d1 either, because it's not ideal
you will also see me trying to punish d1 with f4 once, but he had jumped and since d1 had no blockstun, for skarlet it was one of the most hardest just frames in the game, since mk9 had no buffers in command normals either.



Whener i say "i would like NRS to keep MK9 as base of their foundation" i mean mostly this:
1.d1s needs to be downgraded back to -13 on block again, while still being fast and grand far more than 1 frame of advantage on hit
2. the stance advantage needs to comeback, you need d3s to be relevant againt on crouch/standing hit with good advantage to start adding some other buttons in depending on where they hit, same as d4 which were the oposite and only +4 on crouch hit

This would put players at the edge of their seat, because they would have to learn correct blocking again, "if standing, watch out for d4s, if crouching watch out for d3s" and with this overheads would be far more meaningfull because now you have a reason to stack up damage into pressure, advantage and when they want to focus on that part of the game, BOOM... overhead.

With all the things we have now, the variety in poking advantage, range and hits, short hops, up blocks, flawless blocks, and backdashes, jump outs, would make one hell of a complete system that doesn't have to realy heavily on just "i d1 and you d1 back" which is growing stale imo and it's the fastest way to get out of any offense with a 6f gap

the games would be far more than just the current type of offense that has been building up since MKX, yes which is where this shit started and still ruins every MK game on it's wake, it's doesn't feel as good as it used to.
 
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Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
This was the game that Paulo was starting to get death threats because people were so upset about the meta lol. No one got any respect because everyone was "carried". I remember it all.



HOW did I forget about this???? Hahahaha!!! That was legendary. Crowd counting the Tanya teleports out loud still takes the #1 spot though LOL! How quickly we forget.



That's the funniest part of the MKX to me. No game got the complaints that MKX got when it was active. Inj1 got killed for walk speed, MK11 got killed for being slow and limited, but man MKX had people about to burn down houses. You were crucified if you were to dare defend MKX. Now it's become "actually MKX was awesome" years later.
good times of being here on tym along NRS devs and feel like you were part of the studio and ocasionally stumble upon a thread along with Paulo and John Edwards listening to your feedback and just not pros who crucified them all the time.
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
It's honestly wild to me that people want long combos. Creative Combos are fun, but long combos are superfulous and tedious to do and complete vibe killers to recieve for most players. Long combos are casual kryptonite.

Also, the MKX comparison is so fucking disingenuous. MKX had HTBs but they required setup and decent execution to not be stuffed by a poke or just blown up by armor. MK1 is completely different, it's easy as fuck to just end any combo in Kameo. Shit like Lao Low hat is braindead shit. Even if it's not the strongest tool in the game, it's too strong for how easy it is to do. That's MK1 in a nutshell for me. Everything is too easy to do for how good it is. It's too hard to tell when I'm fighting a good player.

Anyways, That's a tangent, my bad.
Maybe on the first HTB or 50/50. But the problem with MKX was that all a lot of characters had to do was get that initial hit. Whether it was a HTB, reg 50/50, whiff punish, or whatever, then the subsequent guessing game began. Looping 50/50’s are bad enough on their own, but then you add in the fact that you’re doing on average around 25-30% or so with them, then the bigger issue was that there was literally no reward for guessing correctly other than not being combo’d (immediately). Because a lot of these 50/50’s were at worst (or best) safe on block. Meaning even if you actually guessed correctly, it’s not like it was then your turn or that they were actually punished for it. Which leads to the point I was making. That the risk/reward in both MKX and MK1 are horribly lopsided. Virtually zero risk for massive rewards. I cannot stand games like that, but that’s just me
¯\(ツ)

EDIT: Oh and there really was nothing difficult about forcing people into constant 50/50 (or 33/33/33) guessing situations. Didn’t require high execution, and pretty much anyone could do it. There were more issues with MKX competitively than what I mentioned in this post.

Don’t get me wrong, I did enjoy MKX and that time period. I just had my own gripes with the game and I know a lot of players, including top players, had issues with it as well. Like this MKX talk reminds me of all the times I went to YOMI in downtown Atlanta. It was actually a super nice place, the entrance room was Mario themed and all the walls and pillars had customized art and it was really fkn cool. Only issue was that it was just in a very rough area and finding it that first time was an actual nightmare since it wasn’t yet listed on Google or on GPS. Anyway, I remember one of the times I went it was just to play casuals, there weren’t any tournaments running that day. So me, REO, Slayer, Denzell, MIT and some of the other Yomi dudes were all playing and doing a casual team battles. And I’m pretty sure some tournament was being streamed or something because we kept going into this other room that had it on display and we were cheering and what not like we were there watching it in person, that was so much fun and was hilarious. I’m rambling. I was going to go on this long memory lane tangent. But the point is I actually really enjoyed the game, that period in my life, hanging out with the YOMI squad, going to @Mr Aquaman ’s The Commonwealth tournament where SonicFox and a bunch of others like CDJr were arguing about the game (I actually think someone filmed that argument), that’s the same tournament where I believe Denzell almost beat SonicFox’s Erron Black. Anyway, yeah, good times I had with MKX.
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
Maybe on the first HTB or 50/50. But the problem with MKX was that all a lot of characters had to do was get that initial hit. Whether it was a HTB, reg 50/50, whiff punish, or whatever, then the subsequent guessing game began. Looping 50/50’s are bad enough on their own, but then you add in the fact that you’re doing on average around 25-30% or so with them, then the bigger issue was that there was literally no reward for guessing correctly other than not being combo’d (immediately). Because a lot of these 50/50’s were at worst (or best) safe on block. Meaning even if you actually guessed correctly, it’s not like it was then your turn or that they were actually punished for it. Which leads to the point I was making. That the risk/reward in both MKX and MK1 are horribly lopsided. Virtually zero risk for massive rewards. I cannot stand games like that, but that’s just me
¯\(ツ)

EDIT: Oh and there really was nothing difficult about forcing people into constant 50/50 (or 33/33/33) guessing situations. Didn’t require high execution, and pretty much anyone could do it. There were more issues with MKX competitively than what I mentioned in this post.

Don’t get me wrong, I did enjoy MKX and that time period. I just had my own gripes with the game and I know a lot of players, including top players, had issues with it as well. Like this MKX talk reminds me of all the times I went to YOMI in downtown Atlanta. It was actually a super nice place, the entrance room was Mario themed and all the walls and pillars had customized art and it was really fkn cool. Only issue was that it was just in a very rough area and finding it that first time was an actual nightmare since it wasn’t yet listed on Google or on GPS. Anyway, I remember one of the times I went it was just to play casuals, there weren’t any tournaments running that day. So me, REO, Slayer, Denzell, MIT and some of the other Yomi dudes were all playing and doing a casual team battles. And I’m pretty sure some tournament was being streamed or something because we kept going into this other room that had it on display and we were cheering and what not like we were there watching it in person, that was so much fun and was hilarious. I’m rambling. I was going to go on this long memory lane tangent. But the point is I actually really enjoyed the game, that period in my life, hanging out with the YOMI squad, going to @Mr Aquaman’s The Commonwealth tournament where SonicFox and a bunch of others like CDJr were arguing about the game (I actually think someone filmed that argument), that’s the same tournament where I believe Denzell almost beat SonicFox’s Erron Black. Anyway, yeah, good times I had with MKX.
Oh, it was CDJr arguing with REO and SonicFox was basically egging it on, lmao. I’m sitting right next to REO on his left. That was such a funny argument and there was a lot more that SonicFox didn’t record

 

just_2swift

MK1 is the best MK period.
Uhm... plenty of characters are entirely NOT dependent on HTB's in MK1. I'd say the only ones who ARE are Mileena-Lao, Sindel-Lao/Tremor, Cyrax and Homelander/Tremor.

The rest of the cast either depends on (oh, the irony!) 50/50s to open people up (Reptile, Nitara, Smoke, Havik, Baraka, Ghostface, Scorpion-Ferra, Quan Chi, Sub-Zero), pressure (Johnny, Ermac, Liu Kang, Shao, Omni-man) or spacing and whiff punishing (Ashrah, Homelander without Tremor, Geras, Li Mei, Takeda, Tanya, Kenshi). There are also characters that can zone AND either whiff punish very well or pressure well (Sindel, Kitana, Reiko, Sektor).

All of that can also completely change if you pair different Kameos with the characters. I don't see how this makes it less creative than MKX - which, again, I am a fan of.

EDIT: Also friendly reminder that we also had HTBs in MKX with Quan Chi, Cyber Sub, Takeda, Alien and Tremor, and back then we didn't have MK1's system of "autoblock when overhead and low hit on the same frame window", which made them, well, harder to blockables lol.
Ummm Kung Lao Kameo gives everyone HTB's in MK1. Very accessible. And let's not forget he powered majority of the games meta and short pathetic life.

Again how can you criticize the MKXL meta when all of you jumped ship after the XL patch. You're referencing MKX not XL which toned down the mix. Granted it's still some dirt but MK1 is still far more egregious with everyone gaining HTB's with just one Kameo pick. Pretty boring.