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Support for MK1 Supposedly Cancelled

Do you think this is the end of MK1?


  • Total voters
    64
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PrinceGoro

Apprentice
Just chiming in to say you both have good points. I'd reinforce that MK1's combo freedom is, ultimately, more diverse than MK9, even though the d2 combos have been given a different treatment and I loved those, it could mean that having unscaled d2s mid combo WITH the freedom the kameos gave might have broken the game somehow.
Im not a software programmer, bit the same way that the 2 bar d2 has unique scaling, they should have made d2 extended via a kameo activstion scale differently then the d2 continuation without using a kameo to extend.

Maybe it was impossible idk but in the end i very much miss the d2 combos and how unique and difficult they were in mk9 and x.
 

PrinceGoro

Apprentice
I think they mean that doing a less damaging combo could kill the opponent before they have breaker, though you wouldn't necessarily have to use the d2 mid combo for that, it is simply one of the options.

By the way, is it possible to do a d2 2 bar combo with the d2 being in the middle of the combo? Or does it just work when you do it as the starting hit?
Ahh i see, yeah it makes sense.

You cant, but even if you could 2 bars would make it questionable to use mid combo.

I think someone posted here or on reddit that you can jump cancle it, like rains db1, and not jump in the air.
 

Felipe_Gewehr

Twinktile
Im not a software programmer, bit the same way that the 2 bar d2 has unique scaling, they should have made d2 extended via a kameo activstion scale differently then the d2 continuation without using a kameo to extend.

Maybe it was impossible idk but in the end i very much miss the d2 combos and how unique and difficult they were in mk9 and x.
This is a reasonable approach and one I'd like to see as well, maybe in the next MK, should they introduce something akin to "ambush special moves" again.
 

Vulgar

Kombatant
Exactly the combo gravity, its a bit heavy in mk1 and it was a bit more loose in mk9 and x.

There is a key difference in the structure and how you extened, more gravity leads to a more linear system, less oppurtunity for routes.

Listen there is enjoyment to be had with the mk1 system i like it overall but it has issues.
Which is why i advocated for a slight reduction of gravity and a revised scaling, in combination with adding new moves and strings to charcaters pretty much since month 2 of the games life after grasping the system and its limitations.

Unfortunetly with the game being abandond, the combo system will stay rough around the edges and even though there have been lots of improvments on a character by charcater basis and the latest dlc charcaters offer even more the system itself will fall short of being on par with mk9 and x.

Edit: what do you mean exaclty when you say a combo doing less damage can be a differance betwenn winning and losing?

For example if i land a full screen spear with scorp why would i do a combo that involves a mid combo d2 continuation thats harder to execute and does less damage when i can do an easier combo that dies more damage?

And this scenario is exactly presnet in mk1 now due to the harsh scaling on d2.
That's where we disagree. I don't think it, "falls short" of x and 9. I think it's superior. As with the Ghostface example, there are animations in this game that - in past games with similar animations - you can combo from that you simply could not do in MKX or 9.

Let me reiterate: In MK1, there are combo routes and launch opportunities that simply do not exist in older games. Sequence breaking in MK1 is the norm, it is the exception in past titles.

Another example:


This scenario where a character is effectively being jiggled by 3 characters is non-existant in past MK games.

I don't know how many characters I need to show you to get this point across. There are simply more combo routes and juggle opportunities in this game than any MK before it.
 

Eldriken

Life was wasted on you.
In MK1, d2 combos seem purposefully made "not optimal" - you can see that, unless your combo starts with a d2, every time you do a d2 it will have the hit scaling as usual + a 50% damage reduction on itself.

For example: You have a button that does 10% damage. In a 3 hit combo using only this same button, it will do 27% total (10% damage first hit + 9% damage second hit due to scaling + 8% damage third hit due to scaling).

A d2 does 14% damage. A 3 hit combo starting with d2, followed by 2 hits of that button that does 10% damage is: 14% + 9% + 8% = 31% damage.
The SAME combo, now with d2 being the second hit, will be: 10% + 6,3% ([14% damage - 0.1 scaling]/2) + 8% = 24,3% damage. It is why it is generally not worth it to end combos with a rage filled d2 if your opponent is low on health, because it just might not be enough.

There are many instances where MK1 does these "safety" things (which is a GREAT thing, IMO). Other examples include:
  • Scaling in throw combos: I'm not certain of the math here, but it seems that the hits during a throw combo are so heavily scaled that it will seldom reach 23% damage, or 33% with fatal blow.
  • Combo from interrupted armored moves: only example I can think of the top of my head is Nitara but there are others - if she does the armored blood spit, and gets armor broken, she can in some cases still get up fast enough during the enemy's stun animation to combo (not jail on block, but indeed combo). The combo will be heavily scaled, not as much as throw combo but close.
  • Hard to blockables: there is a certain frame window where if an overhead and low connect at the same window, blocking one will automatically block the other, so you must have a specific timing making the two moves hit with a certain time distance from one another.
The d2 scaling mid combo is a bummer, though.
Ohhhhhhhhh, I love this. You cannot argue with math.
 

PrinceGoro

Apprentice
That's where we disagree. I don't think it, "falls short" of x and 9. I think it's superior. As with the Ghostface example, there are animations in this game that - in past games with similar animations - you can combo from that you simply could not do in MKX or 9.

Let me reiterate: In MK1, there are combo routes and launch opportunities that simply do not exist in older games. Sequence breaking in MK1 is the norm, it is the exception in past titles.

Another example:


This scenario where a character is effectively being jiggled by 3 characters is non-existant in past MK games.

I don't know how many characters I need to show you to get this point across. There are simply more combo routes and juggle opportunities in this game than any MK before it.
You are not showing me something i dont know about already.

You think i didnt know you can ambush kameo pick up after throw? just because it was shang morphed doesnt make it any more special.

Yes kameo ambushes can creat unqiue pick ups and combo opportunities but the rest of the combo system is heavily linerised and charcaters ( especially base roster ), dont have as deep of movesets or freedom in routes.

And the kameo extension added to that type of restricted system though it does help, does not push it over the bar of mk9 or x, even though there is cool shit you can do in it.

More often then not if you want to find something different for your chracter in mk 1, you HAVE to switch kamoes, the base version of the character and a kameo choice get exausted quickly in terms of what you can do not to mention all of them dont fit good either and it just doesnt feel good, it gives you that feeling of mk11 custom variations shtick.

Meanwhile people find brand new optimals 2+ years later in games like mk9 and x, even more.


Think about what you just said, ambush kameos allow for combo opportunities that werent possible yet a gigantic complaint of the game is charscter depth, utility, combo linearity.

The system is filled with safe gurads, gravity is restricting, chracters lack strings and moves(slowly adressed over the patches but this plus gravity is a major reason why the system feels less satisfying).
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
I don’t think you can argue that there aren’t a lot of cool combo paths that can only happen with certain Kameos. Also, with Darrius, you can utilize the d2 cancel with him specifically.
————————————
You unfortunately are probably going to have to watch these on YouTube. At least, I have to. It asks me to sign in to confirm I’m not a bot, lol. Anyway, to do this, refresh this page and then click on the title of the video. It’ll redirect you to the video on YouTube

Here’s me using it with Scorpion:


Here’s some other combo routes with Scorpion & Darrius. Not all optimal, just some cool things you can do



Also take a look at this combo video I made for New Years. I edited the combos together, but you DO get the sense of the different things you can do with certain Kameos. And all these combo videos of mine are of prepatched Scorpion. He can do even more cool stuff now. Anyways here it is:

 

Vulgar

Kombatant
You are not showing me something i dont know about already.

You think i didnt know you can ambush kameo pick up after throw? just because it was shang morphed doesnt make it any more special.

Yes kameo ambushes can creat unqiue pick ups and combo opportunities but the rest of the combo system is heavily linerised and charcaters ( especially base roster ), dont have as deep of movesets or freedom in routes.

And the kameo extension added to that type of restricted system though it does help, does not push it over the bar of mk9 or x, even though there is cool shit you can do in it.

More often then not if you want to find something different for your chracter in mk 1, you HAVE to switch kamoes, the base version of the character and a kameo choice get exausted quickly in terms of what you can do not to mention all of them dont fit good either and it just doesnt feel good, it gives you that feeling of mk11 custom variations shtick.

Meanwhile people find brand new optimals 2+ years later in games like mk9 and x, even more.


Think about what you just said, ambush kameos allow for combo opportunities that werent possible yet a gigantic complaint of the game is charscter depth, utility, combo linearity.

The system is filled with safe gurads, gravity is restricting, chracters lack strings and moves(slowly adressed over the patches but this plus gravity is a major reason why the system feels less satisfying).

You could not do that Shang combo in any other MK game. It would be impossible. That seems to be what you're not understanding.

Here's another example of something you cannot do in any other MK game:


It just doesn't seem you have very strong arguments. Again and again your feelings have been disproven with reality, with multiple characters and kameo combinations.

Being able to initiate combos in ways you couldn't before IS adding additional routes.

The rest of the combo system clearly isn't linear when you have stuff like Geras juggling you with Janet and his clone, Takeda throwing out kunai mid-juggle and still having time to extend, star power combos, etc.

And you disagree because doing d2s mid-combo scale. Not even that they can't be done because they can, just that they scale.

I don't know what to tell you. Go play MKX. People still do.
 

PrinceGoro

Apprentice
I don’t think you can argue that there aren’t a lot of cool combo paths that can only happen with certain Kameos. Also, with Darrius, you can utilize the d2 cancel with him specifically.
————————————
You unfortunately are probably going to have to watch these on YouTube. At least, I have to. It asks me to sign in to confirm I’m not a bot, lol. Anyway, to do this, refresh this page and then click on the title of the video. It’ll redirect you to the video on YouTube

Here’s me using it with Scorpion:


Here’s some other combo routes with Scorpion & Darrius. Not all optimal, just some cool things you can do



Also take a look at this combo video I made for New Years. I edited the combos together, but you DO get the sense of the different things you can do with certain Kameos. And all these combo videos of mine are of prepatched Scorpion. He can do even more cool stuff now. Anyways here it is:

Thats great, i mean i think i need to clarify.

Im not saying mk1 has nothing,i enjoy mk 1 gameplay aspects to an extent and there is very cool shit you can do, im a scorpion head in mk1 too juggs so i with you on that, i posted numerouse combos for him in the threads.

We are talking nuances here, amd imo mk1 aint exactly there with mk9 and x, its a bit to riggid, tends to be linear, little room for filler part of the combo that boils down to chaning launchers for extensions or outright kameo extensions.

These just hit different





 

Vulgar

Kombatant
Thats great, i mean i think i need to clarify.

Im not saying mk1 has nothing,i enjoy mk 1 gameplay aspects to an extent and there is very cool shit you can do, im a scorpion head in mk1 too juggs so i with you on that, i posted numerouse combos for him in the threads.

We are talking nuances here, amd imo mk1 aint exactly there with mk9 and x, its a bit to riggid, tends to be linear, little room for filler part of the combo that boils down to chaning launchers for extensions or outright kameo extensions.

These just hit different





So it's just vibes for you. That's all. It's just vibes. Of course.
 

Vulgar

Kombatant
Nahh its not vibes, maybe you need to go back and play these games to understand what is being said.
I traveled for MKX and played in offline tournaments for years. I've got more time in that game than you do in the whole franchise.

And yeah, it is just vibes. These things feel better to you, so you say they're better despite being disproven on the combo variety and depth over and over again.
 

PrinceGoro

Apprentice
I traveled for MKX and played in offline tournaments for years. I've got more time in that game than you do in the whole franchise.

And yeah, it is just vibes. These things feel better to you, so you say they're better despite being disproven on the combo variety and depth over and over again.
Brother are you saying scorpion Spaming f32 f32 f32 and jump kunai ex is deeper and more free/less linear then the shit he could do in mkx? What are you smoking bro lol. Even with kamoe extensions like sektor, mavado or ferra that give him the most sauce he doesnt come close to the insanity you could do in mkx, so yeah its your vibes, not mine.

I watched and followed the tournament scene religiously in mk9 injustice 1 and mkx and i never heard or saw Rude as any type of known mentioned name, or even lesser known name in any capacity in regards to the tournament scene so yeah idk what you were grinding but you must have not been that good.
 

Vulgar

Kombatant
Brother are you saying scorpion Spaming f32 f32 f32 and jump kunai ex is deeper and more free/less linear then the shit he could do in mkx? What are you smoking bro lol. Even with kamoe extensions like sektor, mavado or ferra that give him the most sauce he doesnt come close to the insanity you could do in mkx, so yeah its your vibes, not mine.

I watched and followed the tournament scene religiously in mk9 injustice 1 and mkx and i never heard or saw Rude as any type of known mentioned name, or even lesser known name in any capacity in regards to the tournament scene so yeah idk what you were grinding but you must have not been that good.

I never made it out of Pools. Twas unfortunate, but at least I put myself out there and tried. I never saw you at KiT, CEO, Absolute Battle, Red September, etc.

Where were you?

More to the point, Scorpion can do a lot more than f32.

You're just a vibes-based guy.
 

PrinceGoro

Apprentice
I never made it out of Pools. Twas unfortunate, but at least I put myself out there and tried. I never saw you at KiT, CEO, Absolute Battle, Red September, etc.

Where were you?

More to the point, Scorpion can do a lot more than f32.

You're just a vibes-based guy.
Well first of all i never had interest in competing profesionally number 1, number 2 im from europe so just waltzing to tournaments for fun was not an option either.

It appears that you are a vibes based guy and are projecting it on me soo yeah.

Ohh yes he can, hellfire into sektor missle, tele into ferra, lots of jump kunai ex and 111 bounce and b2 otg hellfire and a lot of thst f32 f32 f32...

Vibes yeah lol
 

Vulgar

Kombatant
Well first of all i never had interest in competing profesionally number 1, number 2 im from europe so just waltzing to tournaments for fun was not an option either.

It appears that you are a vibes based guy and are projecting it on me soo yeah.

Ohh yes he can, hellfire into sektor missle, tele into ferra, lots of jump kunai ex and 111 bounce and b2 otg hellfire and a lot of thst f32 f32 f32...

Vibes yeah lol
Saying, "I know you are but what am I," isn't the own you think it is.

Anyway, you've been shown with multiple characters and kameos how shaggy combos can get, and now you're trying to cope with Scorpion.
 

PrinceGoro

Apprentice
Saying, "I know you are but what am I," isn't the own you think it is.

Anyway, you've been shown with multiple characters and kameos how shaggy combos can get, and now you're trying to cope with Scorpion.
Ok im also going to cope with kitana and tanya... need i go on?

And noob ohh wait noobs better in 1 damn i fucked up

Agree to disagree
 

Eji1700

Kombatant
Brother are you saying scorpion Spaming f32 f32 f32....
Yeah i don't get how you can post those vids and not get that this is the part people are annoyed with.

And again, it's not just hardcore players. Casuals are just as good at registering patterns, and knowing that the moment you register f3 you know the next 5 hits, and they're alllll the same string, is not exactly hype. This problem is all over MK1, and again while it's gotten better, it's still really not good.

Edit-

And yes i find kabal combos boring as fuck for the same reason
 
Last edited:

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
I never made it out of Pools. Twas unfortunate, but at least I put myself out there and tried. I never saw you at KiT, CEO, Absolute Battle, Red September, etc.

Where were you?

More to the point, Scorpion can do a lot more than f32.

You're just a vibes-based guy.
He’s not a competitive player. Most people on here aren’t. If you’re complaining about combo variety, you’re most likely a casual. Which there’s nothing wrong with that, but once you realize that they’re casuals, a lot of the things they complain about or advocate for make a lot more sense.
 

Felipe_Gewehr

Twinktile
He’s not a competitive player. Most people on here aren’t. If you’re complaining about combo variety, you’re most likely a casual. Which there’s nothing wrong with that, but once you realize that they’re casuals, a lot of the things they complain about or advocate for make a lot more sense.
Im quite curious what your opinions are on the above post lol.
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
Yeah i don't get how you can post those vids and not get that this is the part people are annoyed with.

And again, it's not just hardcore players. Casuals are just as good at registering patterns, and knowing that the moment you register f3 you know the next 5 hits, and they're alllll the same string, is not exactly hype. This problem is all over MK1, and again while it's gotten better, it's still really not good.

Edit-

And yes i find kabal combos boring as fuck for the same reason
The fact that you can watch those videos (not just the one showing the Darrius uppercut cancel) and think that f32 always comes after f32, or that after you see f3 hit you always know the next 5 hits shows that you either didn’t actually watch them, or that you’re just lying.

Also, yes, a lot of casuals complain about “spamming combos” or “spamming the same combos”. Welcome to fighting games where characters have BnB’s, lol. Casuals also complain about “spamming block”, and basically will label anything and everything “spamming” something.

At least in MK1 there’s variety in BnB’s largely thanks to the Kameo system. There’s a lot of issues with Kameos, but one area they got right is how they extend combos or offer mixups & setups. I know it may be difficult to understand for those that don’t play other fighting games, but check them out sometimes. For the most part the BnB’s for each individual character are the same. There’s some variation based on the situation, but that’s fairly universal across all (or most) competitive fighting games. And to the amount or extent in which there’s variation, MK1 has at the very least just as much variation. But it’s typically much more, again, thanks to the Kameos.