Support for MK1 Supposedly Cancelled

[Eddy Wang]

Yeah, in MK9 you knew exactly what combos you'd see (or lack thereof in the case of heavy zoners) the moment you left the character select screen as well, but even more pronouncedly. Scorpion would go for vortexes, Sub-zero into clone fishes or refreezes with b2, Sonya with d4 into cartwheel over and over until it hit and, last but not least, Kabal's "hey, hey-ey" combos. Dude, literally, a combo string became so repetitive it became a rhythmic ritual to chant while it was on screen. The SAME Cyrax reset the moment a bomb touched you. At least with Kameos, you get different routes depending on which one you decide to pair with your character - that is the opposite of "less combo variety", by definition.

Those were characters strengths at the time, they aren't doing this to look cool, sub fishes for clones, refreezes and B2 because that's where he excels at in the corner or to burn time midscreen.
Cyrax does death combos because that's where he excels at
Sonya does d4~military stance because that's what she excels at
Kabal does b121 loops at the wall because that's the optimal damage he gets to do, and restands into corner ndc pressure so he can build the most amount of meter, besides the chant was cool.
Skarlet does 112~red dash restands to disable your wakeup options and 50-50 mixup you up after a combo, you block standing, she gets to chip you hard, you crouch block to avoid, you might get hit by an overhead launcher.

These aren't bad things, yes they were simple, but that's how a foundation of a character it's built, back then NRS had archetypes, scorpion lack good pokes, so he had to vortex, skarlet would die if she got knocked down and she had no meter.
Today you have far more options for combo routes, but the game lacks the substance in neutral because everyone plays exactly the same, it's either mix or poke poke poke.
There is no good zoning and character with particular particular strentghs in specific scenarios, everyone is far more generic now.

 

[Juggs]

You know what that sounds like? The infamous "one more patch" positions that always manifested after the fact lol.

Ah, the classic “one last patch”.

I’ve stated and discussed this before, but everyone always seems to think that all a previous NRS game needed was “one last patch”, then everything would’ve been more or less perfect. If that were true, how come the actual last patch these games got weren’t that mythical “one last patch” that solved all the problems? All the “one last patch” would do, even in an ideal world, is merely fix the issues that either were created or persisted through the previous patch (or patches). Meaning that even if that happened, new issues would arise, as they always do. So, even if one of these games DID get that “one last patch”, people would STILL be clamoring for, you guessed it, “one last patch”.

This isn’t solely due to some sort of incompetence on NRS’ part, it’s largely due to the nature of having a robust roster in a fighting game and trying to make all the characters somewhat balanced combined with how these games function and NRS’ balancing decisions and philosophy (which is amplified when you have to take Variations and Kameos into consideration as well). To clarify, I’m not saying NRS holds zero accountability, they absolutely do (or should) take a brunt of the responsibility. My point is that ultimately, there’s no evidence to suggest “one last patch” would fix the game or even make the game better, significantly or otherwise.

 

[Vulgar]

I disagree pretty heavily on kameo's being better combo variety. You know from the moment you leave the character select screen the majority of the combo's you're going to see. There's more actual in match combo route variety in MK9 that in MK1, and visually it's a hell of a lot more interesting too. Watching someone do janet triple punch/ferra slap/scorpion hell breath X times is not very interesting strategically or visually.

This is serious revisionist history.

In MK1, you can use Kameos to make moves that normally don't combo, combo. You can make sweeps, command grabs, fireballs, even d2s combo.

You can do none of that in MK9.

 

[Vulgar]

This idea that there are no archetypes is absurd. Patently absurd.

Ghostface mixes and loops vortexes

Liu Kang is a strike/grab character that has solid zoning.

Scorpion is a neutral-based, footsies character.

Johnny Cage is a pressure character.

Quan Chi zones.

Reiko zones AND grapples.

Kenshi is NRS's first puppet character, ever.

General Shao is a stance switch character.

These are all the base that Kameos change and modify and sometimes add to.

But yeah, please tell us how MK9 Nightwolf and Stryker were more clearly defined characters.

 

[M2Dave]

Ghostface mixes and loops vortexes

Liu Kang is a strike/grab character that has solid zoning.

Scorpion is a neutral-based, footsies character.

Johnny Cage is a pressure character.

Quan Chi zones.

Reiko zones AND grapples.

Kenshi is NRS's first puppet character, ever.

General Shao is a stance switch character.

I mostly agree.

However, the reality is that the kameo system can fundamentally change and modify the base char...

These are all the base that Kameos change and modify and sometimes add to.

Ditto.

 

[PrinceGoro]

This is serious revisionist history.

In MK1, you can use Kameos to make moves that normally don't combo, combo. You can make sweeps, command grabs, fireballs, even d2s combo.

You can do none of that in MK9.

Dont mention d2s.

They butchered d2 conversions, the scaling is so insane, that they essentially complelty removed a very satisfying part of the combo systme.

In mk9 and mkx, finding and doing d2 mid combo conversions and continuation was diffcult and interesting, and it wad also possible for it to be a optimal conversion.

In mk1 because of ambush kameos they just decided to slap scaling to the max overall with anything d2 related, even if you dont use a kameo but find a conversion where you can continue the combo after d2, the scaling is so harsh its not even worth interscting with.

This is very dissapointing and takes away from the combo system enjoyment alot.

 

[TarkatanPeriodontik]

If the game ends up losing support it would be cool if the community found a way to mod the game and tinker with it. They could make it the speed of MKX and call it Project X

 

[LEGEND]

This idea that there are no archetypes is absurd. Patently absurd.

Ghostface mixes and loops vortexes

Liu Kang is a strike/grab character that has solid zoning.

Scorpion is a neutral-based, footsies character.

Johnny Cage is a pressure character.

Quan Chi zones.

Reiko zones AND grapples.

Kenshi is NRS's first puppet character, ever.

General Shao is a stance switch character.

These are all the base that Kameos change and modify and sometimes add to.

But yeah, please tell us how MK9 Nightwolf and Stryker were more clearly defined characters.

I miss MK9 Stryker more than some family members

 

[Eddy Wang]

This is serious revisionist history.

In MK1, you can use Kameos to make moves that normally don't combo, combo. You can make sweeps, command grabs, fireballs, even d2s combo.

You can do none of that in MK9.

You could combo from d2s as well in mk9 lol, and if not mistaken mkx as well

 

[Felipe_Gewehr]

Dont mention d2s.

They butchered d2 conversions, the scaling is so insane, that they essentially complelty removed a very satisfying part of the combo systme.

In mk9 and mkx, finding and doing d2 mid combo conversions and continuation was diffcult and interesting, and it wad also possible for it to be a optimal conversion.

In mk1 because of ambush kameos they just decided to slap scaling to the max overall with anything d2 related, even if you dont use a kameo but find a conversion where you can continue the combo after d2, the scaling is so harsh its not even worth interscting with.

This is very dissapointing and takes away from the combo system enjoyment alot.

I do miss the d2 combos from MKX.

 

[Vulgar]

Dont mention d2s.

They butchered d2 conversions, the scaling is so insane, that they essentially complelty removed a very satisfying part of the combo systme.

In mk9 and mkx, finding and doing d2 mid combo conversions and continuation was diffcult and interesting, and it wad also possible for it to be a optimal conversion.

In mk1 because of ambush kameos they just decided to slap scaling to the max overall with anything d2 related, even if you dont use a kameo but find a conversion where you can continue the combo after d2, the scaling is so harsh its not even worth interscting with.

This is very dissapointing and takes away from the combo system enjoyment alot.

The scaling is fine, in most cases. In MK9, I can count the number of characters that can practically combo off a d2 with one hand.

 

[Vulgar]

You could combo from d2s as well in mk9 lol, and if not mistaken mkx as well

I stand corrected, but only slightly. You and I that D2 combos were mostly combo video fodder and not something you'd see used practically in most cases. With the exception of like...Rain who never saw play.

 

[PrinceGoro]

The scaling is fine, in most cases. In MK9, I can count the number of characters that can practically combo off a d2 with one hand.

Nah its not fine, the scaling is so bad and restrictive its not even worth going for or labbing.

Experimented with scorpion, kung lao, reptile and others and was left utterly dissapionted that a very high skill cap system of post d2 combo got butchered.

Its not even worth doing it and then extending with a kamoe summon, the scaling is abysmal.

The only thing worth doing is the 2 bar d2 kb imitation after those buffs that make it ubrekable and less scaling on specifically that 2 bar d2.

You are taliking out of your ass and dissmis facts as usual, only to be stand corrected, as usual lol.

 

[PrinceGoro]

You could combo from d2s as well in mk9 lol, and if not mistaken mkx as well

Absolutly sick

 

[Felipe_Gewehr]

In MK1, d2 combos seem purposefully made "not optimal" - you can see that, unless your combo starts with a d2, every time you do a d2 it will have the hit scaling as usual + a 50% damage reduction on itself.

For example: You have a button that does 10% damage. In a 3 hit combo using only this same button, it will do 27% total (10% damage first hit + 9% damage second hit due to scaling + 8% damage third hit due to scaling).

A d2 does 14% damage. A 3 hit combo starting with d2, followed by 2 hits of that button that does 10% damage is: 14% + 9% + 8% = 31% damage.
The SAME combo, now with d2 being the second hit, will be: 10% + 6,3% ([14% damage - 0.1 scaling]/2) + 8% = 24,3% damage. It is why it is generally not worth it to end combos with a rage filled d2 if your opponent is low on health, because it just might not be enough.

There are many instances where MK1 does these "safety" things (which is a GREAT thing, IMO). Other examples include:

• Scaling in throw combos: I'm not certain of the math here, but it seems that the hits during a throw combo are so heavily scaled that it will seldom reach 23% damage, or 33% with fatal blow.
• Combo from interrupted armored moves: only example I can think of the top of my head is Nitara but there are others - if she does the armored blood spit, and gets armor broken, she can in some cases still get up fast enough during the enemy's stun animation to combo (not jail on block, but indeed combo). The combo will be heavily scaled, not as much as throw combo but close.
• Hard to blockables: there is a certain frame window where if an overhead and low connect at the same window, blocking one will automatically block the other, so you must have a specific timing making the two moves hit with a certain time distance from one another.

The d2 scaling mid combo is a bummer, though.

 

[Vulgar]

Nah its not fine, the scaling is so bad and restrictive its not even worth going for or labbing.

Experimented with scorpion, kung lao, reptile and others and was left utterly dissapionted that a very high skill cap system of post d2 combo got butchered.

Its not even worth doing it and then extending with a kamoe summon, the scaling is abysmal.

The only thing worth doing is the 2 bar d2 kb imitation after those buffs that make it ubrekable and less scaling on specifically that 2 bar d2.

You are taliking out of your ass and dissmis facts as usual, only to be stand corrected, as usual lol.

If you think it's not worth doing, then you're not playing against other people. Even small combos can make the difference between a W and an L.

I've won matches converting off a d2 anti-air.

 

[Vulgar]

But hey, believe the haters and believe that a 13 year old game has more combo freedom than this:

https://x.com/i/web/status/1867779698404864455

 

[Eddy Wang]

I stand corrected, but only slightly. You and I that D2 combos were mostly combo video fodder and not something you'd see used practically in most cases. With the exception of like...Rain who never saw play.

hey, i was one of the pioneers with this combo, let alone some ppl that played here with kabal, lao and liu kang

but MK9 was a game where characters had stronger points on their gameplan, if it's not there, it's not there, she could do it, but you'd give up the restand mixup after, reason why many didn't go for it.

the last combo on this video it's part of a route i started to use to extend my damage whenever i needed a bit more than 35% restands.

 

[PrinceGoro]

If you think it's not worth doing, then you're not playing against other people. Even small combos can make the difference between a W and an L.

I've won matches converting off a d2 anti-air.

D2 anti air conversion though impacted by the scaling chsnges are a completly different thing then the d2 mid combo continuations.

Obviously if you land a d2 AA and can continue with a d1, s1 into some type of recapture launch, you are going to take it, no matter the end damage result. Thats again nothing new that only exists in mk1.

I was referencing the very interestnig and deep combo feature of doinga combo route that some point involves a d2 and a continuation, as was shown by eddy wang, thses combos are very satisfying and have a certain execution element as well as allowing player expression.

The very harsh scaling changes to d2 rendered these type of routes essentially obsolete.

Reason being because raw d2 into ambush is possible and they didnt want that doing too much dmage as d2 does 14%(legacy mk stuff).
In my opinion they should have handled the situation better, as the end result is detrimental.

As for the johnny combo well, yeah its nice but thats not exactly representative of the games overall combo freedom and routes.

Its a specific case of star power combo combinded with the shujinko which includes recent buffs to shunjinko and also requiers a specific character the opponent has to use.

Its long yes and star power combos are nice but it boils down to again as i said many times before, chaning launchers, in this case its the shujinko stolen move property launcher, coupled with the star power length to allow recharges.


There was that maximilian tweet/reaction posted using liu kang as an example, it perfectly illustrates the differance in freedom between games, the fluidity etc.

 

[PrinceGoro]

hey, i was one of the pioneers with this combo, let alone some ppl that played here with kabal, lao and liu kang

but MK9 was a game where characters had stronger points on their gameplan, if it's not there, it's not there, she could do it, but you'd give up the restand mixup after, reason why many didn't go for it.

the last combo on this video it's part of a route i started to use to extend my damage whenever i needed a bit more than 35% restands.

Absolutly incredible watching this brings back so much memories and how amazing it was to explore and break the combo system down in mk9.

 

[Vulgar]

D2 anti air conversion though impacted by the scaling chsnges are a completly different thing then the d2 mid combo continuations.

Obviously if you land a d2 AA and can continue with a d1, s1 into some type of recapture launch, you are going to take it, no matter the end damage result. Thats again nothing new that only exists in mk1.

I was referencing the very interestnig and deep combo feature of doinga combo route that some point involves a d2 and a continuation, as was shown by eddy wang, thses combos are very satisfying and have a certain execution element as well as allowing player expression.

The very harsh scaling changes to d2 rendered these type of routes essentially obsolete.

Reason being because raw d2 into ambush is possible and they didnt want that doing too much dmage as d2 does 14%(legacy mk stuff).
In my opinion they should have handled the situation better, as the end result is detrimental.

As for the johnny combo well, yeah its nice but thats not exactly representative of the games overall combo freedom and routes.

Its a specific case of star power combo combinded with the shujinko which includes recent buffs to shunjinko and also requiers a specific character the opponent has to use.

Its long yes and star power combos are nice but it boils down to again as i said many times before, chaning launchers, in this case its the shujinko stolen move property launcher, coupled with the star power length to allow recharges.


There was that maximilian tweet/reaction posted using liu kang as an example, it perfectly illustrates the differance in freedom between games, the fluidity etc.

They don't render them obsolete at all. Sometimes, even doing a combo with less damage can be the difference between winning and losing.

And it isn't just Johnny and it isn't just Shujinko. There are tons of examples throughout the game of Kameos creating combo routes that normally wouldn't be possible, flashy combos, technical combos, combo variety and freedom was a huge priority in the game dev.

I saw the Max tweet, and I only partially agree. I think it's less to do with animations themselves and more to do with combo gravity. Launches are more generous in terms of height to compensate for air juggling.

 

[Vulgar]

Here's another example of what I'm referring to:

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

youtube.com

That downward stab animation normally cannot launch. It's only because of Sektor that he's able to continue to do a combo.

Here's another with Ghostface doing multiple command grabs in a single combo. Command grabs - typically - did not launch in past MKs, let alone multiple ones:

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

youtube.com

Or how about another, low tier character:

Swag combos off multiple starters, using multiple Kameos, using Kunai re-launches mid-combo, I mean the vid speaks for itself.

But what about another low tier, Sub Zero?

More fancy stuff with the new buffs.

Freedom and creativity in combo routes is alive and well in MK1

 

[Felipe_Gewehr]

Just chiming in to say you both have good points. I'd reinforce that MK1's combo freedom is, ultimately, more diverse than MK9, even though the d2 combos have been given a different treatment and I loved those, it could mean that having unscaled d2s mid combo WITH the freedom the kameos gave might have broken the game somehow.

 

[PrinceGoro]

They don't render them obsolete at all. Sometimes, even doing a combo with less damage can be the difference between winning and losing.

And it isn't just Johnny and it isn't just Shujinko. There are tons of examples throughout the game of Kameos creating combo routes that normally wouldn't be possible, flashy combos, technical combos, combo variety and freedom was a huge priority in the game dev.

I saw the Max tweet, and I only partially agree. I think it's less to do with animations themselves and more to do with combo gravity. Launches are more generous in terms of height to compensate for air juggling.

Exactly the combo gravity, its a bit heavy in mk1 and it was a bit more loose in mk9 and x.

There is a key difference in the structure and how you extened, more gravity leads to a more linear system, less oppurtunity for routes.

Listen there is enjoyment to be had with the mk1 system i like it overall but it has issues.
Which is why i advocated for a slight reduction of gravity and a revised scaling, in combination with adding new moves and strings to charcaters pretty much since month 2 of the games life after grasping the system and its limitations.

Unfortunetly with the game being abandond, the combo system will stay rough around the edges and even though there have been lots of improvments on a character by charcater basis and the latest dlc charcaters offer even more the system itself will fall short of being on par with mk9 and x.

Edit: what do you mean exaclty when you say a combo doing less damage can be a differance betwenn winning and losing?

For example if i land a full screen spear with scorp why would i do a combo that involves a mid combo d2 continuation thats harder to execute and does less damage when i can do an easier combo that dies more damage?

And this scenario is exactly presnet in mk1 now due to the harsh scaling on d2.

 

[Felipe_Gewehr]

Edit: what do you mean exaclty when you say a combo doing less damage can be a differance betwenn winning and losing?

For example if in land a full screen spear with scorp why would i do a combo that involves a mid combo d2 continuation thats harder to execute and does less damage when i can do an easier combo that dies more damage?

And this scenario is exactly presnet in mk1 now due to the harsh scaling on d2.

I think they mean that doing a less damaging combo could kill the opponent before they have breaker, though you wouldn't necessarily have to use the d2 mid combo for that, it is simply one of the options.

By the way, is it possible to do a d2 2 bar combo with the d2 being in the middle of the combo? Or does it just work when you do it as the starting hit?